193 réponses à ce sujet

[jsadalia]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Siduri wrote...

See, this, is all fine. I totally agree with everything you've said here. Perfectly valid criticism.

It's when people start ****-shaming Jessica Chobot, and saying that she must have slept with someone at BioWare to get the job, that it crosses over into a personal, and a sexist, attack. (Link leads to a feminism 101 explanation of ****-shaming and why it's misogynistic.)

I'm not going to join in any discussion of this, btw. You'll either educate yourself, or not. I'll just keep reporting personal attacks and sexism when I see it.

Chobot's career is centered around her "****tiness" and being a gamer girl.

See: http://www.ign.com/b...ca-chobot-rocks

However, I do agree that even if Chobot is a **** that's not a reason to criticize her personally.  Her sexual promiscuity is neither here nor there.

On the other hand, if her casting decision was because she was a **** and someone in casting thought that gamers would want a **** on the Normandy then... 

Edit:  I don't know why there are so many asterisks but it's the same word each time, based on the quoted link about ****-shaming.

I think you forgot your link proving her sexual promiscuity. Or you don't know what it means.

[Mavaras]

I think the issue is if Jessica was a guy in the exact same position, promiscuity would not have even made it into the argument. I mean honestly, how many would have said, "I bet HE slept HIS way into the job"...

[FatalX7.0]

pants witch wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

pants witch wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

*sigh*

What age do we live in when people don't even realize joke and satire...

The joke.  Is sexist.  It is not.  Funny.

And lol, what?  Satire?  Seriously?  Seriously?

I can't even.  No.  I'm done.  DONE!  AHAHAHA!  Satire.  Satire!!

Wait, wait, wait.

You think I'm talking about the sexist joke being satire? I do not know how to make this any simpler for you to understand.

He posted a sexist comment.

Epler replied to him to say it was inappropriate.

I replied to point out that he was a troll. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please, just stop. You don't want to understand, and I can't laugh anymore.  It hurtssss.

Yes, mature.

[insomniac13]

Aurvant wrote...

I don't hate Jessica Chobot at all, but I do:

- Think her character was utterly pointless aside from 100 war asset points.
- Think that her performance was awful and that there were far more talented women out there who could have done better (like Michelle Ruff)
- Think that her actual rendering was awkward and didn't translate very well.
- Think that her inclusion in the game was simply due to cross-promotion with IGN.
- Think that, overall, her character was a waste of resources and time that could have been spent on more interesting aspects of Mass Effect 3 (example: TALI'S FACE)

That's all I think though. I'm sure Chobot is a wonderful woman, but I just don't feel she was the right woman for Mass Effect 3. Especially when there are far better VA's that are available.

+1000

[rapscallioness]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

jsadalia wrote...

Misogyny is people saying she ****ed execs at Bioware to get the gig.

That's being sexist, which goes for both genders.

But, it can also be a reasonable assumption based on character.

Here's the thing, I really don't think Chobot was the one that went after the gig. The idea that she could play a small role in ME prolly never crossed her mind.

I think it was BW that went after her. She didn't eff anybody to get the gig. BW/EA approached her for marketing reasons. And she was most likely really excited because...wouldn't you be?

I also think ppl take that pic of her licking the PSP thing way too seriously. I thought it was a funny pic because it reflects that feeling of liking something so much it's almost sexual. Like when gamers see an awesome trailer they say things like, "I just *izzed myself".

It's a metaphor. Lol. But that doesn't mean she's a **** in real life.

Her appearance in ME3 was just supposed to be a fun little addition. Not a great dramatic role. Almost like an Easter egg. I'm pretty sure alot of casual gamers didn't even know who she was.

Idk if some fan reactions, and what they say about her, is misogynestic per se, but it is rude as hell and pretty cold blooded.

[jumpingkaede]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

You guys think sexuality never played a role in Mass Effect games before? I think you missed Sha'ira and Miranda 0_o

Sexuality in games isn't a problem with me personally.  I also find Claudia Black/Morrigan sexy.  But they also do a good job with their character.  The same goes with Tricia Helfer, Yvonne Strahovski (although to be fair Strahovski has some low moments in her voice-acting).

ME3 does go too far the other way though.  Completely gratuitous and  constant shots of Miranda's ass is one example.  Every female character having their breasts enlarged (see Ashley, Jack, etc.) is one more.  Diana Allers is another.  Of  course, if Jessica Chobot was a decent voice actor then none of this would be an issue... but she isn't.  She's bad, and so bad as to stick out like a sore thumb in Mass Effect.

So then the question becomes, why did Bioware decide to spend this time creating Diana Allers and casting Jessica Chobot when she is awful.

I think the answer, in light of the over-sexualization of ME3 in general, is that Jessica Chobot is a "well-known" gamer girl who acts ****ty, and Bioware thought that the fans would eat that up.  

Wouldn't be the first example where Bioware wasn't in touch with what the fans wanted with ME3 though, would it? 

[Siduri]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

It's more than being "sexy", as you call it. If you google her, look at pictures of videos of her, she's not modest. She's suggestive, provocative and very innapropriate.

That's where this stems from.

Not modest!!! STONE THE WITCH!

[Legion is Skynet]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

HITMAN629 wrote...

Apply what you just said to guys. You know how many of us dislike each other? It dosent make us misandry though.

There's a marked difference, though, between insults which are used to demean and degrade women, specifically, and insults that can be generally applied to anyone. There's a lot of historical and societal context that's highly important for making this distinction.

Not to mention that misogyny is still a significant problem in society, whereas misandry is technically a thing, but not to anywhere close to the same degree. And now we've gone political, so I'll end by saying - avoid insulting the person and you should be fine.

People saying she got in the game and where she is by flaunting herself and using her body can also be applied to men.

It happens all the time. Right now, somewhere, some guy just got a promotion because his lady boss has the hots for him.

So what? What makes the insults against Chobot misogynistic has nothing to do with whether or not similar situations occur elsewhere to the opposite gender. This isn't an issue where one side has a monopoly over the other. It's like racism in that it can quite easily go both ways.

This is a problem because people are taking a VERY limited amount of information about this woman and then using it as a basis to make a value judgement about her character. This judgement is based specifically and exclusively on her percieved sexuality, which itself is gleaned from a few pictures. Nobody here actually knows anything about her personally. Yet they saw a picture, had a problem with her acting, immediately corrolated her getting the role with agreeing to sexually debase herself, and then they see NO problem with that line of thought. 

It's not just misogynistic, it's stupid. 

[FatalX7.0]

Siduri wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

It's more than being "sexy", as you call it. If you google her, look at pictures of videos of her, she's not modest. She's suggestive, provocative and very innapropriate.

That's where this stems from.

Not modest!!! STONE THE WITCH!

I never even said anything about her getting the job based on her body.

So, stop right there before you read too far into things.

[Mister Mida]

I have no idea who Chobot was until I looked it up after finishing the game. I still don't see why people objected about her being in the game. But I also don't see the added value of her being in the game. It's pretty much the same with Felicia Day and her 'contribution' to DA2: I don't see the point of it, but I won't object to it either, especially since I never cared for DA2. Judging from what I've heard of her performance, Chobot did at least a better job than Day did.

I also know nor care about what Chobot said about the ending complaints. She's from IGN, and I ignore IGN altogether.

[HITMAN629]

Aurvant wrote...

I don't hate Jessica Chobot at all, but I do:

- Think her character was utterly pointless aside from 100 war asset points.
- Think that her performance was awful and that there were far more talented women out there who could have done better (like Michelle Ruff)
- Think that her actual rendering was awkward and didn't translate very well.
- Think that her inclusion in the game was simply due to cross-promotion with IGN.
- Think that, overall, her character was a waste of resources and time that could have been spent on more interesting aspects of Mass Effect 3 (example: TALI'S FACE)

That's all I think though. I'm sure Chobot is a wonderful woman, but I just don't feel she was the right woman for Mass Effect 3. Especially when there are far better VA's that are available.

Agree with everything in this post, well said.

[FatalX7.0]

Legion is Skynet wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

HITMAN629 wrote...

Apply what you just said to guys. You know how many of us dislike each other? It dosent make us misandry though.

There's a marked difference, though, between insults which are used to demean and degrade women, specifically, and insults that can be generally applied to anyone. There's a lot of historical and societal context that's highly important for making this distinction.

Not to mention that misogyny is still a significant problem in society, whereas misandry is technically a thing, but not to anywhere close to the same degree. And now we've gone political, so I'll end by saying - avoid insulting the person and you should be fine.

People saying she got in the game and where she is by flaunting herself and using her body can also be applied to men.

It happens all the time. Right now, somewhere, some guy just got a promotion because his lady boss has the hots for him.

So what? What makes the insults against Chobot misogynistic has nothing to do with whether or not similar situations occur elsewhere to the opposite gender. This isn't an issue where one side has a monopoly over the other. It's like racism in that it can quite easily go both ways.

This is a problem because people are taking a VERY limited amount of information about this woman and then using it as a basis to make a value judgement about her character. This judgement is based specifically and exclusively on her percieved sexuality, which itself is gleaned from a few pictures. Nobody here actually knows anything about her personally. Yet they saw a picture, had a problem with her acting, immediately corrolated her getting the role with agreeing to sexually debase herself, and then they see NO problem with that line of thought. 

It's not just misogynistic, it's stupid. 

I was just saying.

I never said anything one way or the other.

If anyone actually read, I say that Chobot is in game for fan service, nothing to do with doing something inappropriate.

[jumpingkaede]

jsadalia wrote...

I think you forgot your link proving her sexual promiscuity. Or you don't know what it means.

Why would I need to prove anything?  From the link:

"If all negative connotations are removed from the word, a “****” is simply a person, most often a woman, who has had sex with multiple partners."

But go ahead.  Enlighten me.  We're bound to get off-topic eventually and if you want to take it in this direction I'm interested in what you have to say.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 12 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[John Epler]

Mavaras wrote...

I think the issue is if Jessica was a guy in the exact same position, promiscuity would not have even made it into the argument. I mean honestly, how many would have said, "I bet HE slept HIS way into the job"...

Which is, indeed, a big part of it.

Whether some theoretical guy somewhere got a job because he slept with his boss is irrelevant to the discussion. It's a red herring. Men may occasionally face gender-based discrimination, but it's so much less pervasive than misogyny that it's not really worth more than a coda.

If you'd like a clearer set of rules, here they are - if you don't like her character or Miss Chobot's work on ME3, fine. Take issue with that - it's your prerogative and you're more than welcome to do so!

As soon as the conversation turns to her personality or her as a person, it's no longer acceptable. Particularly when implications about her sexual behaviours come up.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

xJohnsen wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Was I the only one who thought he voice acting wasn't that bad? Most people use her sexualized image to insult her, and they say she only got her job for her looks so I can see where she and her supporters are coming from.

I am with you there, I don't think she is as bad as people say she is. Her role is so minor that it wont make me rage all over just because her acting isn't as good as people like Seth Green and Mark Meer.

The same here. I didn't find her perfomance bad, I didn't find it great either. I just found it OK.

Now if you want to hear some REALLY awful voice acting I suggest looking up on youtube clips from the God awful Omni/Star TV English dubs of Transformers: Headmasters, Transformers: Masterforce, and Transformers: Victory, (they are so bad that Hasbro won't let Shout Factory release them on DVD even as a bouns feature) if you can survive that you can damn near survive anything.

[inko1nsiderate]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Was I the only one who thought he voice acting wasn't that bad? Most people use her sexualized image to insult her, and they say she only got her job for her looks so I can see where she and her supporters are coming from.

I thought her voice acting was terrible, and then I rewatched some videos of NWN2... man that changed my opinion.  I didn't remember the voice acting being so terribad in that game, but it sure does seem like it right after playing through the Mass Effect games.  Her voice acting is only terrible in comparison to the rest of the cast of ME3.  Blows the voice acting of some older RPGs out of the water.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 12 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[Cutlass Jack]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Okay, just to play devil's advocate here...what do you think of Freddy Prinze Jr. getting a voice acting job in Mass Effect? Though it's been awhile the dude was once considered a sex symbol in his hay day. Was he brought in for the female audience? Also, his Spanish accent was non existent, which was stupid because they just HAD to throw in Spanish words.

Not really comparable since they didn't use his face or body for Vega.

[jumpingkaede]

John Epler wrote...

Mavaras wrote...

I think the issue is if Jessica was a guy in the exact same position, promiscuity would not have even made it into the argument. I mean honestly, how many would have said, "I bet HE slept HIS way into the job"...

Which is, indeed, a big part of it.

Whether some theoretical guy somewhere got a job because he slept with his boss is irrelevant to the discussion. It's a red herring. Men may occasionally face gender-based discrimination, but it's so much less pervasive than misogyny that it's not really worth more than a coda.

If you'd like a clearer set of rules, here they are - if you don't like her character or Miss Chobot's work on ME3, fine. Take issue with that - it's your prerogative and you're more than welcome to do so!

As soon as the conversation turns to her personality or her as a person, it's no longer acceptable. Particularly when implications about her sexual behaviours come up.

Mostly agree.  I'm now wondering who made the call to over-sexualize ME3 across the board.  Did Jack need her boobs enlarged, for example?

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Okay, just to play devil's advocate here...what do you think of Freddy Prinze Jr. getting a voice acting job in Mass Effect? Though it's been awhile the dude was once considered a sex symbol in his hay day. Was he brought in for the female audience? Also, his Spanish accent was non existent, which was stupid because they just HAD to throw in Spanish words.

Not really comparable since they didn't use his face or body for Vega.

Even if they did, Vega's voice acting wasn't bad.  It just doesn't stand out. 

If they had cast... I don't know, Christian Bale or something (and let's pretend that Bale's voice acting is awful and Howl's Moving Castle never happened) I would probably say the same thing.  Except Bale is also a big name actor.

I don't know.  Give me the name of a sexy guy who isn't well-known but might appeal to female gamers. 

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 12 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[Fnork]

Putting in Diana Allers makes about as much sense as the endings do. In Mass Effect 1 you help Emily Wong become a reporter. Along comes the idea to put a reporter on the Normandy for ME3 and they pick Chobot ?

[MassiveEffects]

Mavaras wrote...

I think the issue is if Jessica was a guy in the exact same position, promiscuity would not have even made it into the argument. I mean honestly, how many would have said, "I bet HE slept HIS way into the job"...

Right, but somehow I also doubt that EA would view a male version of Diana Allers as something that would really appeal to their target demographic (a sexualized, poorly acted, reporter character). And by the way, the fact that Diana Allers was put into the game is in that regard sort of insulting to the target demographic.

Sure, different sexist/misogynist/misandrist stereotypes are tied to both genders, the negative, damaging stereotypes about females are not the same as the negative, damaging stereotypes about men; so a guy would most likely not get accused of sleeping himself to the job. And no, I do not approve of these sterotypes on either side, I just wanted to explain why you wouldn't hear that about a male Diana Allers/Chobot.

To summarize, so that no one gets me wrong, I disliked Allers as a character, I disliked Chobot's acting, I do not think she sleept herself to the job, I do not think jokes about her sleeping herself to the job are funny, and I do not hate either gender. I do, however, dislike certain people of either gender, which does not make me a misnogynist, nor does it make me a misandrist. I dislike some human beings, but that does not necessarily make me a misanthrope. And so on.

Modifié par MassiveEffects, 12 avril 2012 - 06:40 .

[FatalX7.0]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Okay, just to play devil's advocate here...what do you think of Freddy Prinze Jr. getting a voice acting job in Mass Effect? Though it's been awhile the dude was once considered a sex symbol in his hay day. Was he brought in for the female audience? Also, his Spanish accent was non existent, which was stupid because they just HAD to throw in Spanish words.

Not really comparable since they didn't use his face or body for Vega.

Bioware said he was brought in for newer players.

Basically as a "dumb" character to get new players adjusted and feel comfortable. Plus, he's an actual actor and he's voice acting is pretty good.

[Joeybsmooth4]

For the people calling sexism when people call her same names, you should take in account that she said something close to "every woman who has made it popular have done sexy pictures" . That is a sexist and a slap in the face or many woman. While I do not think people should call her a **** making comments to that effect does not help her case at all .

[firebreather19]

Jesus K.

So any character that doesn't directly provide something to the story is pointless?

Are we really talking this much **** about the girl?

Ridiculous. Utterly off the charts bonkers.