102 réponses à ce sujet

[TJX2045]

I think it's pretty interesting. I saw Traynor's romance on YouTube. Cortez seems to have gotten more romantic banter while Samantha got more sexy time before the Cerberus base.

[lillitheris]

I agree on an intellectual level, and for parity. The simplest solution would probably have been to just allow all romances.

At the same time, I've got kind of a visceral reaction to the rejection of Liara on the basis that she's not a (human) female. Shouldn't it be more about loving (or being attracted to) the person, not about their sex or lack thereof?

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 08:03 .

[Sporothrix]

Yuqi wrote...
We know that Casey said 'not lesbian cause monogendered' for the pourpose of damage control. Because Liara is not 'human' she technically is not a 'lesbian', so by all acounts Caesy is 'technically' right.

He was talking about whether there is lesbian romance. Romantic relationship of two females is always lesbian, even if both of them are for example bisexual.

ladyshara wrote...
I will agree that straight femsheps got it worse than we did. Got curious and watched Thane/Jacob on youtube and that was just... tragic. And I love Garrus but he's an incredibly alien alien. If that makes sense. I hope Kaidan's is good at least? Maybe?

I don't get that. Sure, those who romanced Jacob or Thane got the short end of the stick, but I didn't hear anyone complaining about Garrus. He's romance due to fans' request after all. And there's common opinion that Kaidan's romance is better developed than Ashley's (propably because he's gay romance aswell).

franciscoamell wrote...
I did read the thread, actually, I just disagree with it. Call Liara whatever you want, she is not bi or a lesbian, but any woman who falls for her is. She is not a lesbian, but her romance is of course a lesbian romance, and the romance with most content.

If you really read it, you would know that a fact that romance with Liara is lesbian when it comes to in-game informations was never under a question. 

franciscoamell wrote...
So, even if you consider Diana, Sam and Kelly flings, it's still options for Shepard to show her sexual preference.

FemShep has no possibility to announce her sexual orientation, unlike MaleShep who could say the line that he was waiting for the right man , and she is forced to flirt with Vega (as she was in ME2 with Jacob, but hey, now devs theoretically acknowledge that players could want to play gay character? Apparently they respect that only when it comes to gay men). 

franciscoamell wrote...
Straight femshep has the possibility of not having options at all. Gay mshep has one romance guaranteed, and it's the first game for him to find a boyfriend
 

Exactly. Possibility. Due to your choices. If someone have chosen to kill Kaidan, then can't really complain that now has less romance options with men. Potentially at least he or she has access to more and better developed romance options.

franciscoamell wrote...
My point is just that, people who like guys got a worse treatment in ME3 than people who like girls.

I would say women generally got a worse treatment in ME3 than men, and saying that, within those groups gay people got worse treatment than straight people. 

Modifié par misoretu9, 14 avril 2012 - 10:35 .

[Yedelgeuse]

misoretu9 wrote...

franciscoamell wrote...
My point is just that, people who like guys got a worse treatment in ME3 than people who like girls.

I would say women generally got a worse treatment in ME3 than men, and saying that, within those groups gay people got worse treatment than straight people. 

This... everything is sooo typical that I personally aren't even upset lol.

[Sporothrix]

BrianWilly wrote...
Liara is a lesbian romance. Casey Hudson can call it whatever he likes, doesn't make it any more accurate. Just because BioWare fails basic ethnography doesn't mean that the rest of us have to.

But it's sad it remains that way even after Bioware turned into being theoretically gay friendly with ME3. Since manShep has possibility to say something about his orientation to Cortez, like I said all what was needed to fix it was some short female specific dialogue with Liara. But we got nothing like that, instead even more forced flirting with men.

lillitheris wrote...
At the same time, I've got kind of a visceral reaction to the rejection of Liara on the basis that she's not a (human) female. Shouldn't it be more about loving (or being attracted to) the person, not about their sex or lack thereof?

Well, that way of thinking actually does not apply to Liara's case anyway. Nevertheless, I have to say that not everyone is bisexual. I personally believe everyone could love anyone, as love is about person's unique mind/soul, not gender, but sexual attraction is what makes the difference, and it is largely about gender. Love without attraction is simply great friendship.

Modifié par misoretu9, 14 avril 2012 - 10:56 .

[RedHotElite]

BrianWilly wrote...

Liara is a lesbian romance. Casey Hudson can call it whatever he likes, doesn't make it any more accurate. Just because BioWare fails basic ethnography doesn't mean that the rest of us have to.

My thoughts exactly. I don't see how Liara/femShep is anything but a lesbian relationship. The Asari are mono-gendered (meaing having one gender), not non-gendered (meaning having no gender at all). Each Asari individual looks female, and are biologically and sexually female. A straight femShep wouldn't be interested in Liara. Only a lesbian/bisexual femShep would be. Simple as that.

Besides, following Casey's logic manShep/Liara isn't a heterosexual relationship, either. And everybody knows that's not true.

[lillitheris]

misoretu9 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
At the same time, I've got kind of a visceral reaction to the rejection of Liara on the basis that she's not a (human) female. Shouldn't it be more about loving (or being attracted to) the person, not about their sex or lack thereof?

Well, that way of thinking actually does not apply to Liara's case anyway. Nevertheless, I have to say that not everyone is bisexual. I personally believe everyone could love anyone, as love is about person's unique mind/soul, not gender, but sexual attraction is what makes the difference, and it is largely about gender.

Sure it applies. Attracted to Liara? Go for it. Not? Don't. How does her sex factor into it, unless you're excluding attractive mates based on their sex?

That's not to say more options wouldn't be appropriate.

[Emzamination]

If no one else, Ashley should've been a lesbian romance option for a female shepard.

[ladyshara]

Emzamination wrote...

If no one else, Ashley should've been a lesbian romance option for a female shepard.

This.

[Padt]

I always thought that "Liara isn't a same-sex romance option because asari are mono-gendered" argument was utter fallacy that fell flat on its face the second it was uttered. "Mono-gendered" doesn't mean "genderless", it means "one gender". As in, the female gender.

(Hell, by that same logic, the relationship between a male Shepard and Liara is not straight, and no way would the sort of people who typically put forward that argument be willing to accept something like that)

[AxisEvolve]

I support this thread. As long as you upload the romances to Youtube.... we're good.

I was surprised that Ash wasn't a same sex option. Some will say "Oh she believes in God so she can't be a lesbian!". That's just silly. Not all religious people are that close-minded. Especially in the future, I imagine they are much more progressive.

In 200 years we'll all be smoking pot on the moon with our gay lovers and sexbots. Deal with it.

[Sporothrix]

lillitheris wrote...
Sure it applies. Attracted to Liara? Go for it. Not? Don't. How does her sex factor into it, unless you're excluding attractive mates based on their sex?

That's not to say more options wouldn't be appropriate.

I meant it can't be said about Liara that it's just about person, not gender, since asari are blue space babes after all.

I found out it's sometimes hard to understand for some bisexuals, but there's no such thing as universal attractiveness. We are wired to see tertiary sexual characteristics as sexually attractive or not, depending on gender. Bisexuals find sexually attractive both genders' tertiary sexual characteristics, so for them it may look like it's just how it universally is and therefore main focus of interest has to be personality first and foremost (at least speaking about more 50/50 bisexuals).

BTW, in third game devs made it clear that asari feel sexual attraction to their sexual characteristics (so, by similarity, to human females' as well). I don't think they thought much about implications, since it's impossible that they would feel it to other races. And even if it's that mental connection which draws them to other races, still asari-asari (if they want kid, they don't have to have it together) or asari-human female bonds should be prevalent, as more fulfilling.

AxisEvolve wrote...
I was surprised that Ash wasn't a same sex option. Some will say "Oh she believes in God so she can't be a lesbian!". That's just silly. Not all religious people are that close-minded. Especially in the future, I imagine they are much more progressive.

Swedish Church already has lesbian bishop. And I don't remember that Ashley even stated that she's Christian.

Modifié par misoretu9, 15 avril 2012 - 09:29 .

[Agent_Dark_]

Who cares what some Dev said... By Human standards, Liara is a chick. Sure, the Asari themselves may not refer to themselves as female, but we're not Asari. Liara has all the same parts as a Human female, so clearly FemShep (if you choose to have a Liara romance) has no issues with getting down with the female body.

[Sporothrix]

franciscoamell wrote...

Agent_Dark_ wrote...

Who cares what some Dev said... By Human standards, Liara is a chick. Sure, the Asari themselves may not refer to themselves as female, but we're not Asari. Liara has all the same parts as a Human female, so clearly FemShep (if you choose to have a Liara romance) has no issues with getting down with the female body.

That's not necessarilly true, because they often refer to each other as woman. 
"She is simply a very dangerous woman who likes to kill." Samara about Morinth
"That is the woman who tried to kill me!" Liara about Tela Vasir.
"I thought she was the most beautiful woman" Liara about her mother.

Not often, but always when pronounces come up. And keep in mind a fact I mentioned countless times on this thread, including first post, that already ME1 Codex itself clearly states that "Asari are all female race which reproduces through a form of parthenogenesis".

And that's what I'm talking about. ME devs' public statements apparently so muddled up that people don't notice not only Codex entries, but so obvious facts that asari refer to themselves only as females. That's why romance with Liara, since nothing was done on the side of devs to revoke this misconception, is so cheapened when it comes to its lesbian aspect.

Modifié par misoretu9, 15 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[Quething]

ladyshara wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
If no one else, Ashley should've been a lesbian romance option for a female shepard.

This.

You'd still have the Cortez/Traynor problem. Ashely's romance is horsespit in ME3, especially when compared to Kaidan's.

Not that I'm arguing against it, mind, I think it's beyond bizarre and dumb that they gave us bloody Allers instead of Ashley.

[Emzamination]

Quething wrote...

ladyshara wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
If no one else, Ashley should've been a lesbian romance option for a female shepard.

This.

You'd still have the Cortez/Traynor problem. Ashely's romance is horsespit in ME3, especially when compared to Kaidan's.

Not that I'm arguing against it, mind, I think it's beyond bizarre and dumb that they gave us bloody Allers instead of Ashley.

Mmmmmmmmmmm Traynor

[LelianaHawke]

I don't really agree with you on Kelly. Sure, it's not given that much time in game, but whatever happened to imagination?

Why can't I say my Shepard met up with her and went on dates? Why must Bioware tell us everything?

Did your Shepard not go to the toilet because Bioware never showed it happening?

[KTheAlchemist]

LelianaHawke wrote...

I don't really agree with you on Kelly. Sure, it's not given that much time in game, but whatever happened to imagination?

Why can't I say my Shepard met up with her and went on dates? Why must Bioware tell us everything?

Did your Shepard not go to the toilet because Bioware never showed it happening?

I could sit around and make up my own stories about what supposedly happened or didn't happen to Shepard all day.

I believe the topic of discussion was about Bioware's handling/treatment of lesbian romance in the games. Fanon is fun, but kind of irrelevant to that.

[LelianaHawke]

Yes but the OP inserts her/his own fanon into the debate by saying that the lack of a closed sex scene means the romance was never serious: saying that Shepard never felt anything because she wasn't able to take Kelly to a real bed. He/she is extrapolating events from what is in game.

By contrast, I actually played my Sheaprd as really caring. She was so angry at Kelly's apparent death when the reapers took over that she just went to 'destroy everything' as her end choice. She couldn't even hear the arguments for the control/synthesis options. She just wanted revenge.

And interestingly, because she made that choice, she woke up in London afterwards, and by the recent Bioware statements at PAX, so did Kelly after taking refuge in a kinetic barrier. By thinking of Kelly at the end, she ensured a reasonably happy ending. That, to me, is far better than any kind of fluffy love scene, because the romance had a real, concerete impact on the universe.

If my Shepard never cared, why did she go straight to the 'destroy' choice? Why was she so angry? By the OPs arguments, I played this scene wrongly.

In short, love is not about silly love scenes. It's about guiding your character's choices and motives, everywhere they go.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 16 avril 2012 - 11:41 .

[Nightdragon8]

lillitheris wrote...

I agree on an intellectual level, and for parity. The simplest solution would probably have been to just allow all romances.

They did that in DA2 and people complained, (have to admit I also complained, it just didn't seem right to have all characters bi, Isabella I completly understand she was that way in DA1 so it was pretty much Cannon...  the rest.... not so much. ) 

Granted for me it was Anders that made me question it, (he was stragit in awakening...  then in your face gay in DA2)

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 16 avril 2012 - 01:10 .

[Sporothrix]

LelianaHawke wrote...

Yes but the OP inserts her/his own fanon into the debate by saying that the lack of a closed sex scene means the romance was never serious: saying that Shepard never felt anything because she wasn't able to take Kelly to a real bed. He/she is extrapolating events from what is in game.

Actually, lack of romance dialogues was the main point. Lack of scene only further proves that devs didn't care about it.

By contrast, I actually played my Sheaprd as really caring. She was so angry at Kelly's apparent death when the reapers took over that she just went to 'destroy everything' as her end choice. She couldn't even hear the arguments for the control/synthesis options. She just wanted revenge.

That's fine, but that happens only in your mind. Nothing in game allows to role play it. By the same token, I could say that I play my Shepard the way that she has romance with EDI. 

And interestingly, because she made that choice, she woke up in London afterwards, and by the recent Bioware statements at PAX, so did Kelly after taking refuge in a kinetic barrier. By thinking of Kelly at the end, she ensured a reasonably happy ending. That, to me, is far better than any kind of fluffy love scene, because the romance had a real, concerete impact on the universe.
(...)
In short, love is not about silly love scenes. It's about guiding your character's choices and motives, everywhere they go. 

Point of this tread is to give a signal to devs that treatment lesbian players got from them - grossly worse developed romances - is not acceptable. 

You basically are asking devs to not care and treat us as second class players. Romance with Kelly has less dialogues (and poor quality of it) and no cutscenes? Oh, that's perfectly fine, I'll use my imagination to turn it to the best romance that ever happened.

Does that works the same way with real life issues for you? It doesn't matter that many countries do not recognise marriage of people of same sex, "marriage is not about a silly paper"?

Modifié par misoretu9, 16 avril 2012 - 02:28 .

[lillitheris]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

They did that in DA2 and people complained, (have to admit I also complained, it just didn't seem right to have all characters bi,

But they're not really bisexual. They're [whichever suits you] in that particular instance of reality

But, well, this is far beside my original point.

[LelianaHawke]

It does work for me because I see romances as reasons for doing other things in game, like how a boy or girl will do something to impress someone, but that isn't actually part of the romantic activity.

I'd actually rather that games moved away from portraying romances as dialogue, and more about the actions you take because of that romance.

I do, however, support the main gist of your argument - that lesbian romances need equal treatment. Either they should be brought up, or straight romances brought down. But given that most straight romances are just an excuse for sex scenes anyway, player imagination will still be needed to make the romance an actual romance.

Even Liara, Bioware's baby, mostly amounts to "You've always been there for me let's sleep before the final battle as one last fling."

I guess the point I was getting at is I see Kelly as one of the more coherent romance options, and she's not alien fantasy indulgence like the others. Because of this, she desrves to be regarded as a valid option, and I don't consider the lesser dialogue to be a problem (for me).

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 16 avril 2012 - 02:53 .