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Lack of lesbian romances in the whole ME series


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#51
jlb524

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Nightdragon8 wrote...

They did that in DA2 and people complained, (have to admit I also complained, it just didn't seem right to have all characters bi, Isabella I completly understand she was that way in DA1 so it was pretty much Cannon...  the rest.... not so much. ) 


Why not?

It's no more ridiculous than all the LIs dating ugly PCs.

misoretu9 wrote...
BTW, in third game devs made it clear that asari feel sexual attraction to their sexual characteristics (so, by similarity, to human females' as well). I don't think they thought much about implications, since it's impossible that they would feel it to other races. And even if it's that mental connection which draws them to other races, still asari-asari (if they want kid, they don't have to have it together) or asari-human female bonds should be prevalent, as more fulfilling.


It would be physically more fulfilling for sure...but I guess the mental thing is 'good enough' so to speak.

It is odd why 'lesbian' asari pairings (asari/asari or asari/female human) aren't the most prevalent.  Well, for asari/asari, there's a huge taboo and with human females perhaps it's more difficult to find one willing to partner with an asari...ya know, since there are hardly any human females into f/f in the future if we go by what ME shows us :mellow:

So...they settle for what they can get I guess.

#52
kumquats

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I will just throw this out The Tribute.
The Book already landed in DEV hands and I thought it was strange that nobody wrote anything about Kelly and Samantha.

Good luck.

#53
LelianaHawke

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Oooh thank you. I've already written some stuff about Kelly, so will send it over.

#54
zambingo

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I was disappointed that Jack wasn't available. In her dialogue she states she's been with both sexes, but then when it comes to Shep for some reason she's locked to a male. I also agree that the stance from some peeps about Liara is silly, she is a woman. So we can't disregard her, but even with Liara we are then left with Liara and flings. Sure Kelly has nice dialogue at times, but that's it. btw, Bioware should have had allowed faithful Kelly romancers to convince her to come back on board the Normandy... she could have resided in the Captain's quarters... and chances are she'd survive the end(s) that way.

#55
LelianaHawke

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Kelly was confirmed by Bioware at PAX to survive the endings. The Citadel has shields and refuge shelters in case of emergencies, which is also confirmed by the in-game codex. Also of note is that Zaeed is in the same area and the canon is he makes it off in time (he's down in London for the final assault). So whatever shenanigans happened up there, somehow people in the docking bay escaped.

Kelly, is, as it stands, the only real romance option that leads to a happy ending. Liara, Samantha, and Allers are all shown as being shipwrecked on some random planet. Kelly makes it down to earth with Shepard with the rest of the people in that docking bay (implied by Zaeed). She just gets... lost.

It was, I agree, a little disappointing to have things clearly in canon to be left up to imagination, and piecing together circumstantial canon evidence.

BTW the main thing that really convinces me Kelly is not a fling is that you get an actual photo to put in your quarters of her. People don't keep photos of flings in their bedroom, surely?

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 16 avril 2012 - 04:45 .


#56
Sporothrix

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LelianaHawke wrote...

Kelly, is, as it stands, the only real romance option that leads to a happy ending. Liara, Samantha, and Allers are all shown as being shipwrecked on some random planet. Kelly makes it down to earth with Shepard with the rest of the people in that docking bay (implied by Zaeed). She just gets... lost.


Heh, so it turns out it was a good thing that devs simply forgot about her. But still, theoretically there is possibility that Shepard will reunite  with her or his LI's.

LelianaHawke wrote...

BTW the main thing that really convinces me Kelly is not a fling is that you get an actual photo to put in your quarters of her. People don't keep photos of flings in their bedroom, surely?

I think there's some misunderstandment here. Both Kelly and Samantha confess love to Shepard, Sam also mentions children and house together, and both of them give romance achievement (although it's worth to remind that Kelly in ME2 was officially only mere fling and they didn't put much more work into her in ME3). But by saying that those are just flings, not real romances, I mean how grossly underdeveloped their options are compared with straight and gay male romances, where you don't have to use your imagination to pretend it's actual romance. With Kelly and Sam, whole thing has to occur in your head, otherwise you have to believe that they fall in love with each other almost without any interaction except for sex. And sex without personal attachment (which is impossible if they don't talk with each other, therefore don't know anything about each other - and for Sam her whole personal conversations before sex take all 3 minutes 30 seconds) is called a fling.

#57
LelianaHawke

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I definitely do agree with you about Sam, and again, agree with your main contention that lesbian options need more attention.

I suppose with Kelly partly I see the attachment as real, because in ME2 I made the choice to go save her before I had completed half the loyalty missions, so she's the sole reason I started ME3 with just a few squad options. Garrus, Jack, Thane, Tali, and Legion all died because of Kelly. And in the ME3 ending, Shepard chose destroy out of revenge for Kelly's apparent death, killing off EDI too. I guess even if her romance was undeveloped, the possible impact she can have on a game save is very actual and real.

That said, because she was incredibly important to my save, I was quite disappointed she didn't get more playtime in ME3. I hated having Liara thrust on me even though she was a nothing in my game. So I agree with you on your general idea, I just don't like thinking of Kelly as a mere fling.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 17 avril 2012 - 05:25 .


#58
Edrick1976

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Liara is a WOMEN and ANYONE can romance her....


/end thread

#59
Dead_Meat357

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Yuqi wrote...

We know that Casey said 'not lesbian cause monogendered' for the pourpose of damage control. Because Liara is not 'human' she technically is not a 'lesbian', so by all acounts Caesy is 'technically' right.

At least you have Liara as an option, the straight females get screwed over pretty bad. It's almost like there intent was to make femshep canonically gay.


I want you to keep in mind that I'm a straight, white male gamer. I'm not a million pounds, middle aged, balding or living in my parents basement or anything, but I'm fairly stereotypical demographically.

For the most part I'd have to say that these games are designed for heterosexual males. Many of which actually make up the bulk of FemShep players. Most of these are science fiction nerds and go for Liara for some hot girl on girl action and to fulfil that Orion slave girl sort of fetish most of them seem to have. Straight males and their various
deviant fetishes are the only ones who are getting any kind of satisfcation out of the romanctic subplots and sex scenes. Straight female players, gay males and lesbians are all getting the short end of the stick here. This should be plainly evident to all.

BioWare may have the best intentions here, but resources even for them are limited as is time. Especially with their new EA overlords pulling the strings. They will pander to their largest group of customers, straight, white males. Think about it. Even black men and minorities are really screwed here. Almost all the women are white, the one who isn't is for lesbians. There are two black guys and two hispanics in the game. Admiral Anderson, who is just a character who happens to be black is the only good one. Jacob is upitty and useless. While not so bad in the second game he falls into the stereotype almost too well in ME3. He's basically self-absorbed, a cheater and he's knocking up women. He's not a very good friend here as he won't come with Shepard to accomplish the greater good, he just stands in the hospital staring at the wall. For as well as Anderson is handled Jacob is handled badly enough to strip away any accomplishment BioWare might have made. 

Straight girls playing FemSheps basically have the option to go for Kaiden. Anything else is pretty futile and worthless. Thane dies, Jacob cheats on her and won't get back with her. What else do you have? Oh, there is Garrus I suppose. But you may run into the problem of not finding him very attractive due to being so alien. Lesbian's have the afore mentioned Liara and Traynor relationships and I think the OP summarized these well enough. I don't need to go there other than to say, for the most part I agree.

Gay males playing ManSheps have Steve Cortez and Kaiden. I don't know how the whole thing works for Kaiden but everyone says it's "off". Steve's may be handled fairly well, but I doubt it's handled as well as some of the hetero options male Shepards have.

For ManShep, we've got the most options by FAR. Liara is still the best relationship choice in my opinion for a number of reasons, but we still have Ashley and Tali which are handled fairly well for the most part. For ManShep Allers and Kelly feel pretty much like useless flings just as they do for the women. So I'd have to agree there. That's not even counting the ME2 options which are pretty much bad for everyone aside from Tali and Garrus. Within ME2 itself we still had Liara, Miranda, Jack, and Tali. All these had merrit on their own. Samara's relationship could have gone somewhere but she flatly refuses Shepard for no real given reason. I've got my theory on that, but that's another topic for another thread. Getting back to the race part of the equation, ManShep can be any color you want and no one reacts to that. Possibly due to a purpose decision on the designers part but most likely a programing omission. It's something that wasn't needed and basically they eliminated the race issue by making it not an issue. Win-win for BioWare. The problem with this approach is that while I think ignoring Shepard's ethnicity is great, they don't bother to create options that a player of a given ethnicity might like.

I'm a straight while male who prefers white females in real life. Not exclusively, (I admittedly have a thing for Asian girls) but it's a general preference. But there are no attractive or romancable Asian women, black women or hispanic women in the game. Of course Traynor is not a white chick, but again she's locked out for ManShep. Now this may be an oversight or it may be a conscious design choice. Regardless, the fact remains that many black male players may not be happy with the fact that there are no black women in the game. Basically you've got white women and alien women. Neither of which may be your thing. See the problem?

Now the fact of the matter is, even in a game this large and this diverse in terms of variables, you can't include enough content to please everyone. So BioWare being a company out to make money has to make some choices. So they'll again pander to their largest audience. The straight white, science fiction geek who is either going to want some white human knock out or the exotic alien girl. To that end we basically got that in abundance, even with some variable personality types. Jack-Emotional and tatooed, Ashley - Needy and sensitive, Miranda - strong and independant, Liara - compassionate, giving, and exotic / alien. I could go on and on. On the upside, the Mass Effect universe does take sexual preferences and things like ethnic background within a given species a total non-issue. Whether on purpose, by omission or a mixture of both this is commendable and I think people of all backgrounds, orientations etc. can appreciate this. So they did throw everyone a bone in a sense.

The fact is, right or wrong some design choices in a game boil down to return on investment and making money. Controversy is only good if you can profit by it and your choices need to please the widest audience possible. I don't think they didn't include anyone's particular tastes due to being largely insensitive or forgetful, but due to running a business the smart way. If there is one thing EA and BioWare know how to do it's make money.

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 17 avril 2012 - 07:53 .


#60
Quething

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Ashley was hispanic in the first game, actually. They bleached her in ME3 as part of their "integrity? what's that? we want Stereotypically Hawt Chicks or dudebros won't buy our game" thing that they did with her.

#61
Dead_Meat357

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Quething wrote...

Ashley was hispanic in the first game, actually. They bleached her in ME3 as part of their "integrity? what's that? we want Stereotypically Hawt Chicks or dudebros won't buy our game" thing that they did with her.


I thought she was totally Italian. Or maybe some kind of Spanish. I wasn't sure what she was. It never came up in my conversations with her.

#62
Mr. Big Pimpin

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Quething wrote...

Ashley was hispanic in the first game, actually. They bleached her in ME3 as part of their "integrity? what's that? we want Stereotypically Hawt Chicks or dudebros won't buy our game" thing that they did with her.

Yeah, they decided to give implants to her and Liara, too. Because changing endings is wrong, but changing the bodies of your major characters is totally okay.

#63
Dead_Meat357

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Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Quething wrote...

Ashley was hispanic in the first game, actually. They bleached her in ME3 as part of their "integrity? what's that? we want Stereotypically Hawt Chicks or dudebros won't buy our game" thing that they did with her.

Yeah, they decided to give implants to her and Liara, too. Because changing endings is wrong, but changing the bodies of your major characters is totally okay.


To be fair all the women in Mass Effect 1 have the exact same body, but different heads. I think it was a good move in ME2. Ashley still had the same character model used for both ME1 and ME2, and an update for ME3 seemed like a good idea. I'd have done the same thing.

Besides who actually complains about bigger boobies?

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 17 avril 2012 - 10:28 .


#64
lillitheris

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Dead_Meat357 wrote...

Besides who actually complains about bigger boobies?


Anyone concerned about unnecessary objectification?

#65
Dead_Meat357

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lillitheris wrote...

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

Besides who actually complains about bigger boobies?


Anyone concerned about unnecessary objectification?


Well there is always one I guess. In any case, I think they needed different bodies in general to differentiate them further. Liara for example has bigger boobs but she also looks a little heavier than she was in ME1. Ashley is the same in ME1&2, but radically different in ME3. But it almost looks like she has pretty much the same body as FemShep does. Though I believe Ashley may have wider hips. I haven't played a FemShep in ME3 but from what I've seen they look very similar. In ME1 Ashley always seemed to have wider hips (all the women did) in her armor, but not so much in fatigues or in her nude scene. Ashley, FemShep and Liara all used the same body in that sequence. In ME3 her hips are now consistently the widest save for Quarians and she has boobs about as large as FemShep and Liara, although they are shaped very differently from Liara's. At least in their default outfits. If you put Liara in the ME2 FemShep style armor and do the same with Ashley, they look virtually identical. I think the models may be the same aside from coloration and their heads. 

It's my theory that the models have interchangable heads and they reuse the bodies for a lot of women. The default bodies outfits being the exception in that for the most part, they don't interchange. I've never seen another person in ME2 or ME3 that had Liara's default outfit body. It also seems like Aria, Samara, Jack and Kasumi are unique as well. Then again they may have all started more or less the same, with bodies being copied, tweaked and then heads added or changed later. Not all the women got boob upgrades either. Tali may have smaller boobs in ME2 than she did in ME1. Her model wasn't updated in ME3 so she looks the same as she did there. 

Differentiation isn't necessarily objectification but I see your point.

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 17 avril 2012 - 10:56 .


#66
sammysoso

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The whole mono-gender thing has never flown with me. For all intents and purposes, Liara is female.

#67
Dead_Meat357

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sammysoso wrote...

The whole mono-gender thing has never flown with me. For all intents and purposes, Liara is female.


Agreed. She clearly has breasts and all Asari which aren't sterile like Morinth are capable of giving birth. Therefore they need to have a birth canal like any mamal. Given her reaction in the sex scene with a male Shepard in ME3, I'm going to say that it stands to reason Asari enjoy penetration by males. The rest of their bodies are pretty close to human, so yeah, totally female. Now social concepts of male vs. female gender identities may not be so clear cut or even exist for them. (Liara states in ME1 that they don't and even comments that all Asari have maternal instincts and are "female" by human standards.) Another intersting thought I had: Javik talks about the Prothean's genetically engineering them with regard to biotics. I wonder if their reproduction was engineered as well in order to ensure that Asari could always reproduce and always create other Asari from any melding independant of gender.

If you think about it, there is a certain logic to it. Being able to reproduce with any species and gender has a huge advantage. They will never have a problem of their culture being dominated by males and thus going off to war and getting killed off. Additionally since every Asari can essentially give birth, their birth rates have a potential to sky rocket if they wished. Granted they'd never match the Krogan, but they could certainly out produce most other species easily. Their long life spans also have the benefit of allowing for great widowm and intelligence. Makes you wonder if they ever had males before there was all the genetic manipulation. The only down side is that it takes them forever to mature. An Asari at age 60 to 100 is little more than a teenager / young adult. That's greater than the entire Salarian life span and almost half the human life span in Mass Effect. (Humans are stated have life spans of about 150 years or so by Shepard in ME1 I think.) 

I think the monogendered statement by BioWare is nothing more than PR damage control given all the controversy the game generated initially.

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 18 avril 2012 - 04:10 .


#68
zambingo

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Had I been in the brainstorm/concept meetings when Mass Effect was being created I would have fought for the Asari to be athletic built, but flat chested, feminine eyes, but having a strong chin and with the style of complexion / make up that Samara had. Face type examples would be Hilary Swank, Jennifer Aniston, Reese Witherspoon and Sarah Jessica Parker. Those ladies, whether you think them attractive or not, all carry gender neutral features which depending on make up look more feminine or not.

But I digress.

Modifié par zambingo, 18 avril 2012 - 04:10 .


#69
Dead_Meat357

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zambingo wrote...

Had I been in the brainstorm/concept meetings when Mass Effect was being created I would have fought for the Asari to be athletic built, but flat chested, feminine eyes, but having a strong chin and with the style of complexion / make up that Samara had. Face type examples would be Hilary Swank, Jennifer Aniston, Reese Witherspoon and Sarah Jessica Parker. Those ladies, whether you think them attractive or not, all carry gender neutral features which depending on make up look more feminine or not.

But I digress.


That would have been totally unappealing to me. Especially that last one. Sarah Jessica Parker's face looks like a foot. All in all I like what they did with the Asari but I wouldn't have stood behind the monogendered crap. I'd have said, "So what, there is a lesbian romance in the game which is optional. COME AT ME BRO." 

Maybe I wouldn't have used those exact words but you get the idea. Make your fiction however you want to and own up to your mistakes and just be truthful. If people don't like it, they won't buy it. Simple as that.

#70
zambingo

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I didn't mean model faces exactly after those actresses, they were just examples of a stronger jawed feminine face type that when it doesn't have make up (eyebrows specifically) or hair the face could have a more gender neutral appearance, but not necessarily an ugly one. Eye of the beholder, sure, I understand your POV on Parker (whether I share it or not). :)

#71
Dead_Meat357

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zambingo wrote...

I didn't mean model faces exactly after those actresses, they were just examples of a stronger jawed feminine face type that when it doesn't have make up (eyebrows specifically) or hair the face could have a more gender neutral appearance, but not necessarily an ugly one. Eye of the beholder, sure, I understand your POV on Parker (whether I share it or not). :)


Ultimately the Asari needed to have sex appeal. While your idea has technical merit, (and frankly makes sense for a monogendered race) it really kills that concept. Liara especially needed sex appeal just as Samara and other Asari like Aria do. As characters it's part of the game and the formula for success. They needed their target audience to respond a certain way. No one wants to see girl on girl action if one of the girls looks like a dude. Even an somewhat feminine dude. (At least no straight male wants to see this.) 

#72
zambingo

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Yep, you make good points about the target demo needing to relate.

#73
gosimmons

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If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

Liara's female.

#74
Quething

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Dead_Meat357 wrote...

Ultimately the Asari needed to have sex appeal.


Why?

And to who?

The argument of the OP would seem to be "not lesbians." I'm inclined to agree myself. Which makes trying to say "oh lesbians got a great story in Liara" something of a non-starter.

Some queer chicks still like her, of course, opinions being what they are, but I don't think that particularly negates the obvious intent of her design and writing from the outset, or its implications for BioWare's rep wrt s/s content.

#75
Dead_Meat357

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Quething wrote...

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

Ultimately the Asari needed to have sex appeal.


Why?

And to who?

The argument of the OP would seem to be "not lesbians." I'm inclined to agree myself. Which makes trying to say "oh lesbians got a great story in Liara" something of a non-starter.

Some queer chicks still like her, of course, opinions being what they are, but I don't think that particularly negates the obvious intent of her design and writing from the outset, or its implications for BioWare's rep wrt s/s content.


She needed to have sex appeal for the white male gamers who buy things like this. Plain and simple. Sex sells. I don't know how I can make the concept easier to understand. It really is that cut and dried.