102 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

She needed to have sex appeal for the white male gamers who buy things like this. Plain and simple. Sex sells. I don't know how I can make the concept easier to understand. It really is that cut and dried.

Actually, no it doesn't. Also, you appear to be missing the point.

Modifié par Quething, 18 avril 2012 - 10:24 .

[Salmakia]

I am a girl, play as FShep and romanced Liara from Me1 to Me3. I screamed like a fangirl when they kissed in Lair of Shadow Broker. I really like the romance. C'mon, we all know that FShep and Liara have a lesbian affaire. Maybe not for the Asari, since they can **** anything. Like... dogs and cats, if they are appealing. But from Shepard point of view, it's clearly lesbianism.

You know that a lot of people complained about the lesbian sex and blah blah blah, right? What does Casey Hudson do? "It's not lesbianism... She's... I mean... Liara... they are not... women. They have feminine bodies, voices, names and pronouns, but they are SO not women, pals..."

Suuuuure...

But if you are gay, you are really screwed up. They are mistreated in games because, you know, the average white straight guy wants a straight romance. And if there is some lesbian action, even better. But... gay? Ugh! My Shepard does NOT swing that way! It's disgusting! I feel uncomfortable with the possibility of... of.... TOUCHING another guy!

So for the record: I love Liara, but find Traynor, Diana and Kelly BORING. Cortez is better developed, but it's a clumsy attemp anyway. It would have been better if they had kept Ashley and Kaidan romanceable for any sex. Even straight romances for women are clumsy and poorly done. I mean: JACOB. Differences between Male romances and Female romances in ME2 were shameful. Let's caress Garrus and kissThane. Meanwhile, MShep is enjoying kinky Miranda sex. Thanks BW, you saved us a disgusting sex scene since we women don't like sex at all.

Also, we love cooking, gardening and cuddling with our loved ones. In a polite way.

[Neria Rose]

Salmakia wrote...

Differences between Male romances and Female romances in ME2 were shameful. Let's caress Garrus and kissThane. Meanwhile, MShep is enjoying kinky Miranda sex. Thanks BW, you saved us a disgusting sex scene since we women don't like sex at all.

People really need to get over the sex scenes. It's a game, not a porno. I loved Garrus' bedroom scene in ME2 and ME3. I don't need pixelated naked human (or "near human") bodies stiffly rolling around in order to enjoy my character's romance. In fact, given the lack of 'kinky'ness in Garrus' scenes, I love knowing that the romance I'm playing wasn't put in to be titillation for lonely males.

Like when reading a love story.. I'm not interested in detailed descriptions about what's being put where. Give me a couple of polite euphemisms and then fade to black and move on with the story, please. When I want sex I'm going to turn to my husband, not to pixels and smut.

[Salmakia]

It's not the lack of sex what bothers me. It's the lack of equality. I haven't played Jade Empire, but I think I've seen the straight and gay romance's endings. If you are straight, you get a kiss. If you are gay, you get an intense gaze. Totally equal.

If Male Shepard gets kinky sex, I want to know that Female Shepard can have kinky sex as well. I was faithful to Liara, so I didn't get involve with anybody in ME2. But I saw the romances in Youtube and felt quite disappointed. I don't need porn in my videogames, I just want to feel equal. What about Tali's scene? You don't get to see a lot of skin, but it's beautiful and sexy. Can't say the same with Garrus. In fact, it felt awkward and not very romantic. It was something like "Hey, Shepard, do you want to get laid? I finished my calibrations and I have nothing else to do tonight..."

[Neria Rose]

Salmakia wrote...

It's not the lack of sex what bothers me. It's the lack of equality. I haven't played Jade Empire, but I think I've seen the straight and gay romance's endings. If you are straight, you get a kiss. If you are gay, you get an intense gaze. Totally equal.

If Male Shepard gets kinky sex, I want to know that Female Shepard can have kinky sex as well. I was faithful to Liara, so I didn't get involve with anybody in ME2. But I saw the romances in Youtube and felt quite disappointed. I don't need porn in my videogames, I just want to feel equal. What about Tali's scene? You don't get to see a lot of skin, but it's beautiful and sexy. Can't say the same with Garrus. In fact, it felt awkward and not very romantic. It was something like "Hey, Shepard, do you want to get laid? I finished my calibrations and I have nothing else to do tonight..."

Different interpretations by different people. I thought the Garrus scene was very romantic in ME2, as was Thane's, and was only one-upped by his scenes in ME3. Much as I would have loved a hug in ME2, that they didn't just start making out in front of the camera speaks volumes for me. The Tali scenes in ME2/3 were really adorable, too.

Liara, on the other hand, comes off as a wimpy creeper for me no matter what she does. She could become a blue clone of Scarlett Johansson and cause the entire galaxy to implode on itself and I'd still never use the words 'badass' nor 'beautiful' to describe her. Ever. So in spite of lots of screen time or whatever, her romance is never romantic to me, rather it's repulsive as hell.

Modifié par Neria Rose, 18 avril 2012 - 03:24 .

[LelianaHawke]

Yeah, tbh a lot of opinions here come off as very personal.

To me, Liara was created as the character for those who wanted 'romance on rails'. The game thrusts her in your face at every turn, and nothing, absolutely nothing is left to the imagination. You're told how Shepard feels, what happens, how Liara feels. It takes all imagination and control away from the player.

I don't like that at all. It just doesn't excite me as a romance. I want mystery, not being told what happens, having to work it out, not having them thurst in my face every chance the game gets. I like seeing how the romance affects the broader plot, not being contained in a few romance-specific sequences.

And because Liara was, effectively, kept on a leash in the squad by Shepard the whole game, she had little real impact other than a few clever quips during missions. Thane, Kelly, Cortez etc, may not have had much screen time, but they did get to intervene at some key moments in the series. When they appeared, they were not upstaged.

My redheaded yeoman triggered some intense emotional moments as I fought Cerberus off the Citadel to try and save her, and same in ME2 when I rushed to save her from the Collectors. That - is what a romance should do.

Liara? Pfft. She was never going to be in any danger. She's Bioware's baby, kept wrapped in a safe cocoon. No drama at all. She was even given a personal teleport to the Normandy from London. Even if Earth got blown up with a bad EMS score, Liara was never going to die. Bioware whisked her away to prevent it.

I would love to have a few more developed romance options for lesbian Shepards, but let's not make them Liara clones.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 18 avril 2012 - 03:54 .

[Dead_Meat357]

Quething wrote...

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

She needed to have sex appeal for the white male gamers who buy things like this. Plain and simple. Sex sells. I don't know how I can make the concept easier to understand. It really is that cut and dried.

Actually, no it doesn't. Also, you appear to be missing the point.

The porno industry and any TV show that gets a surge in ratings from adding a new sexy female character disagrees with your assertions. Rated R films don't sell because of stuff like that. PG/PG-13 movies do better in the box office because they are safe. They have mass market appeal. But you can not sit here and tell me that these movies don't have sexy leads or even sexual content. There is a line between sex appeal and showing actual sex. The latter only sells in a niche market. But come on, why do you think movies and shows generally cast attractive male and female leads? Sex appeal.

I don't know how anyone can try to argue this. Your link doesn't prove anything.

[Dead_Meat357]

LelianaHawke wrote...

Yeah, tbh a lot of opinions here come off as very personal.

To me, Liara was created as the character for those who wanted 'romance on rails'. The game thrusts her in your face at every turn, and nothing, absolutely nothing is left to the imagination. You're told how Shepard feels, what happens, how Liara feels. It takes all imagination and control away from the player.

I don't like that at all. It just doesn't excite me as a romance. I want mystery, not being told what happens, having to work it out, not having them thurst in my face every chance the game gets. I like seeing how the romance affects the broader plot, not being contained in a few romance-specific sequences.

And because Liara was, effectively, kept on a leash in the squad by Shepard the whole game, she had little real impact other than a few clever quips during missions. Thane, Kelly, Cortez etc, may not have had much screen time, but they did get to intervene at some key moments in the series. When they appeared, they were not upstaged.

My redheaded yeoman triggered some intense emotional moments as I fought Cerberus off the Citadel to try and save her, and same in ME2 when I rushed to save her from the Collectors. That - is what a romance should do.

Liara? Pfft. She was never going to be in any danger. She's Bioware's baby, kept wrapped in a safe cocoon. No drama at all. She was even given a personal teleport to the Normandy from London. Even if Earth got blown up with a bad EMS score, Liara was never going to die. Bioware whisked her away to prevent it.

I would love to have a few more developed romance options for lesbian Shepards, but let's not make them Liara clones.

Liara is the only character in all three Mass Effect games that is never in any real danger. She can't die in ME1. Ashley, Kaiden, and Wrex can. Garrus doesn't have to be recruited, but I think Tali does. They aren't in any danger either in ME1, but in ME2 they are all in danger. Even Shepard. Liara has her own DLC that's all about her. And guess what? She can't die there either. In Mass Effect 3, the only way for her to die is to get her hit by Harbinger's beam if you have the minimal EMS score. As I understand it they don't teleport under those circumstances. But that's literally the only possible way for Liara to die.

I disagree with a lot of your commentary concerning her. I felt that she was made the most appealing romance for most on purpose, but I don't look at her romance the same way you do. Liara is easy to romance and easy to keep. Frankly though, I like that about her. I hate high maintenence women and that's what Ashley is. She's needy, and takes more than she gives. Her distrust in ME3 made me want to punch her in the face like the damned reporter. As for Liara leaving you no mystery, I can't say that either. In ME2 you wonder what she's up to and why she's so cold. You can find out by completing her quests and pressing her for answers. In the Shadow Broker I was fairly certain she was cheating on my Shep with Feron. She's a bit of work in LOtSB. Granted it's not like the bumps along the way you get with Kaiden or Ashley, but she's still not what I'd necessarily call a romance on rails. At least that's not how I viewed the experience the first time.

Now obviously I know that unless you cheat on her a lot, you can pretty much always get her and keep her. But there are some nice touches with her dialog and scenes in ME3. Half the time she seems like the only romance that really cares for Shepard to a serious degree. When you take her to the Cerberus base she's the only one who really tries to comfort Shepard who is clearly, very, very disturbed by the Project Lazarus data. In fact that scene has some of the best voice acting in the series for Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale both. They each deliver the doubt and emotion of the scene in almost the same exact way. A practical first for the series. I've not seen how each squad mate responds, but I have seen how many of them respond. Aside from EDI, they all say something. But Liara is the only one who really tries to comfort Shepard in a meaningful way.

It's one of the few moments where Shepard needs reassurance that a "Bro" like Garrus just can't give you. Liara nails it. Ashley is still a ****, Javik is wel......just Javik. Not comforting or helpful in that scenario. Getting past that Liara is the only romance that really develops to any large degree. Sure there is some with Tali and Garrus, but Liara shows the most progression and the most change through the series. Obviously she's the writer's pet and that's the reason for it, but it made her appealing to me at least. You can argue that Garrus is much the same way, and while this is true in the first game, it's not quite true in the second.

Now, I do agree with you about the development of lesbian relationships with Shepard. I'll take that a step further and say, that other romances, maybe even just one for each demographic needed the attention, writing, dialog and development that Liara got. Liara is the best because she's engineered to be that way. The problem is that not everyone will think she's attractive or appealing. A friend of mine prefers Ashley 1000x over Liara. When analyzing the situation I can see some similarities between his actual wife and Ashley personality wise, and Liara or rather a girl like that is incompatible with him. To some degree our preferred romances will reflect what we might like in real life. As a player what we consider appealing doesn't change just because the romance is virtual. Their appearance, voice, and personality need to appeal to us as players. Not the in-game character.

And for those who hate Liara, it sucks for you because she is thrown in your face all the time. Your Shepard is forced to have a bond with her unlike anyone else on the Normandy even if you don't romance. She's your most trusted confidant and advisor. She comes and goes in Shepard's quarters as she pleases and dialog between the two is always delivered with a subtext that conveys mutal attraction and feelings. Even if your Shepard has feelings for someone else. ME3 takes this a step further by having at least one other character confirm that there is a mutual attraction even if you didn't romance Liara. Matriarch Atheyta will comment: "I've seen the way you two look at each other. I'm surprised your panties haven't caught fire." She will call Shepard Liara's boyfriend or girlfriend even if they aren't and the renegade interrupt will have Shepard get excessively protective of her and the dialog delivered shows an attraction on Shepard's part.

Now I would simply prefer that other relationships are brought up to Liara's level rather than see her take a diminished role. I think that's the best solution in any DLC or subsequent sequels to this game. (Assuming BioWare goes that route.) 

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 18 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[Saodade]

lack of lesbian options? Honnestly I don't think so. Since the first mass effect you can have Tali and Liara chasing you. Almost every asari you meet are giving you deer eyes. And in mass effect I was almost affraind to being friendly to any female character around cause my shepard have almost been raped in her own room by her new yeoman...(Is jumping on your boss is a yeoman prerequirement ?)...I think there is more lesbian stuff than gay men in these games (except in the third but it is hasty and hurried add I would say.)

[Salmakia]

So you don't like Liara Romance. I see. I do. I don't like Garrus Romance (in ME2, didn't tell anything about ME3) and you do.

That is why Bioware gives us choices.

But I agree with Dead Meat: every romance should be as deep as Liara's is. You know. Equality.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Saodade wrote...

lack of lesbian options? Honnestly I don't think so. Since the first mass effect you can have Tali and Liara chasing you.

Tali is completely straight.

[Neria Rose]

Salmakia wrote...

So you don't like Liara Romance. I see. I do. I don't like Garrus Romance (in ME2, didn't tell anything about ME3) and you do.

That is why Bioware gives us choices.

But I agree with Dead Meat: every romance should be as deep as Liara's is. You know. Equality.

Qualifying a romance as 'deep' is entirely subjective, though. The contrived SB plot to keep Liara relevant and cure her of her damsel-in-distress syndrome doesn't cancel out her "I've known you for two hours, let's talk about how Asari mate with anything and how young and inexperienced I am!" thing from ME1. It also doesn't change the fact that she's part of a species designed specifically for titillation. So, in my mind, her romance automatically defaults to 'cheap', not 'deep', and that's not going to change.

If you're simply referring to screen time and conversations, then that I agree with. But what's done is done, of course, and paying all of those voice actors to get in the studio and record more lines and then change up the animations and triggers in game just isn't going to happen. It's not financially feasible. The best that can be hoped for is that Bioware learned its lesson about providing too many squadmates and having too many potential squadmate deaths and will keep things like that conservative in future games.

[Saodade]

Romance, whatever gender you are involved with is requiring romance: a look, a word, a voice intonation, a look...something that could make your heart flutter, or beat strongly, or have butterflies and have a big grin.
It is something that you wish to do while spending time with the being you are interested in. It can start with a basic physical attraction or a common ideal or goal.
It can be anything as long as it is shared with that special person.
I have nothing against Liara (except that she herself say in mass effect1 that she is barely out of child age), personnaly, or Garrus or Thane or Cortez or Legion. Whoever each player choose is what they should have: actual romance.
What I had in mind saying it was hasty were that not all romanceable characters had real romancing options. I won't start on Thane ;op
Like they say it is the journey that is interesting. And romancing is a journey to love someone. A journey to meet someone and share that interesting spark with. To see if they share it at all or not. So it need some time, events and stable ground to work. Just dropping a handsome someone in the story who wink at you and ask if you would love to let them check if you are fully endoctrinated or not won't be romancing to me. Maybe in some renegade Shepard or in a one shot adventure...

[Dead_Meat357]

Saodade wrote...

lack of lesbian options? Honnestly I don't think so. Since the first mass effect you can have Tali and Liara chasing you. Almost every asari you meet are giving you deer eyes. And in mass effect I was almost affraind to being friendly to any female character around cause my shepard have almost been raped in her own room by her new yeoman...(Is jumping on your boss is a yeoman prerequirement ?)...I think there is more lesbian stuff than gay men in these games (except in the third but it is hasty and hurried add I would say.)

Not true. Shiala for example only expresses interest in a male Shepard. Gianni Parasini is the same way. Though the latter is obviously not an Asar. Male Shepard gets hit on more and has a lot more options. 

[Karrie788]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

Saodade wrote...

lack of lesbian options? Honnestly I don't think so. Since the first mass effect you can have Tali and Liara chasing you. Almost every asari you meet are giving you deer eyes. And in mass effect I was almost affraind to being friendly to any female character around cause my shepard have almost been raped in her own room by her new yeoman...(Is jumping on your boss is a yeoman prerequirement ?)...I think there is more lesbian stuff than gay men in these games (except in the third but it is hasty and hurried add I would say.)

Not true. Shiala for example only expresses interest in a male Shepard. Gianni Parasini is the same way. Though the latter is obviously not an Asar. Male Shepard gets hit on more and has a lot more options. 

No. I got hit on as FemShep.

And let's not forget Sha'ira.

[zambingo]

Saodade, Tali is not and never has been a romance for FemShep.

[Salmakia]

I can see where you are going, Neria, and I think I have nothing else to tell you. I'm sorry for saying that I didn't like Garrus' Romance in ME2, but that's what I think. I'm so not discussing why do I like Liara's Romance that it surprises me to read how you loath it and how you're not going to change your mind. I think there is a couple of Liara appreciation posts where you can discuss it.

By deep, I was refering to "amount of screen time". But yes, I'm a big girl, I know that it costs a lot of money and Santa Bioware is not giving me a Traynor's life and miracles DLC for Christmas, That's the reason why I wrote "should" instead of "must".

Modifié par Salmakia, 18 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[Saodade]

zambingo wrote...

Saodade, Tali is not and never has been a romance for FemShep.

Oh? then my game had a bug   cause I perfectly remembered  Tali having  problem in making sentences  about how she got fever etc...But maybe it is me who  is not  thinking straight

[Neria Rose]

Salmakia wrote...

I can see where you are going, Neria, and I think I have nothing else to tell you. I'm sorry for saying that I didn't like Garrus' Romance in ME2, but that's what I think. I'm so not discussing why do I like Liara's Romance that it surprises me to read how you loath it and how you're not going to change your mind. I think there is a couple of Liara appreciation posts where you can discuss it.

By deep, I was refering to "amount of screen time". But yes, I'm a big girl, I know that it costs a lot of money and Santa Bioware is not giving me a Traynor's life and miracles DLC for Christmas, That's the reason why I wrote "should" instead of "must".

Don't apologize for having an opinion. There are plenty of people who hated his romance in ME2 and/or who hate him in general, makes no nevermind to me. And I'm definitely not apologizing for loathing everything Liara .

That other part was less to you and more a general comment to people demanding this and that in a DLC without thinking about cost, time, etc. It was more something that's been on my mind the last few weeks since the forums exploded after the release of ME3. Probably doesn't belong in this thread, I guess. Oops >.>.

[Dead_Meat357]

Karrie788 wrote...

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

Saodade wrote...

lack of lesbian options? Honnestly I don't think so. Since the first mass effect you can have Tali and Liara chasing you. Almost every asari you meet are giving you deer eyes. And in mass effect I was almost affraind to being friendly to any female character around cause my shepard have almost been raped in her own room by her new yeoman...(Is jumping on your boss is a yeoman prerequirement ?)...I think there is more lesbian stuff than gay men in these games (except in the third but it is hasty and hurried add I would say.)

Not true. Shiala for example only expresses interest in a male Shepard. Gianni Parasini is the same way. Though the latter is obviously not an Asar. Male Shepard gets hit on more and has a lot more options. 

No. I got hit on as FemShep.

And let's not forget Sha'ira.

She didn't with FemShep in my playthrough. Only ManShep. My save files were identical as I used the save editor to change the genders. The original playthrough was ManShep. I resolved her issue in ME2 the same way both times and she never expressed any slight interest in FemShep.

Sha'ira on the other hand is a different matter.

Saodade wrote...

zambingo wrote...

Saodade, Tali is not and never has been a romance for FemShep.

Oh? then
my game had a bug   cause I perfectly remembered  Tali having  problem
in making sentences  about how she got fever etc...But maybe it is me
who  is not  thinking straight

She says that stuff but it won't lead to a romance.

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 18 avril 2012 - 06:45 .

[Karrie788]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

She didn't with FemShep in my playthrough. Only ManShep. My save files were identical as I used the save editor to change the genders. The original playthrough was ManShep. I resolved her issue in ME2 the same way both times and she never expressed any slight interest in FemShep.

Sha'ira on the other hand is a different matter.

I can tell you with absolute certainty and with three FemSheps saves to back me up that she can hit on FemShep. Don't know why it didn't happen with your save, but it can happen. ^^

[2leggywillow]

Shiala definitely flirts with FemShep.  I play FemShep 95% of the time, and I get her flirty dialogue in ME2 every single time with at least 15 FemShep playthroughs.

As for Aethyta commenting on FemShep and Liara's relationship, that's a glitch.  She isn't supposed to make the "panties on fire" comment for a non-romanced Shepard but she does about half the time anyway.  I've been lucky enough to only have that comment trigger on one of my FemSheps.  I've gone through ME3 with two other FemSheps and one ManShep (none of which romanced Liara) and Aethyta never said it.  That part, at least, is a bug.

Modifié par 2leggywillow, 18 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[Dead_Meat357]

2leggywillow wrote...

Shiala definitely flirts with FemShep.  I play FemShep 95% of the time, and I get her flirty dialogue in ME2 every single time with at least 15 FemShep playthroughs.

As for Aethyta commenting on FemShep and Liara's relationship, that's a glitch.  She isn't supposed to make the "panties on fire" comment for a non-romanced Shepard but she does about half the time anyway.  I've been lucky enough to only have that comment trigger on one of my FemSheps.  I've gone through ME3 with two other FemSheps and one ManShep (none of which romanced Liara) and Aethyta never said it.  That part, at least, is a bug.

Interesting.

[Xewaka]

Liara's been there since Mass Effect 1.

[4stringwizard]

*Epic facepalm*