486 réponses à ce sujet

[ahandsomeshark]

Shaoken wrote...

Vurculac wrote...

Looking back over some of the marketing that was being spewed out in the months leading up to the games release last month, it's hard for me to believe that anyone with half a brain would consider the game we recieved lived up to what was promised. That's just me though.

The leading theory seems to be that EA rushed Bioware and short-changed them on resources, leading them to have to cut a lot of things. And they can't throw EA under a bus and say it's their fault, because they get their money from EA, and EA won't let them apologise because that would make EA look bad by proxy and lower their stock prices.

EA's stock prices are already hitting all time lows. There's usually a big spike after AAA releases. No such spike so far.

[adam_nox]

No need to even ask who's right. We bought the games, we're right.

[M0keys]

adam_nox wrote...

No need to even ask who's right. We bought the games, we're right.

Shhh! That's the mindset of a healthy business! 

[cutegigi]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

So does anyone from bioware care to discuss the actual quote and explain how they could legitimately not know?

don't worry, I'll wait.

Edit: also still waiting for an explanation of you don't need MP for the best ending.

somebody mention something about certain choices with TIM and Anderson will reward you with 1000 point, so with this additional 1000 it should be possible.  
I dont know for sure. dont really care either way...

[DadeLeviathan]

Complaining that Bioware has decided to not do exactly what you want them to do is nothing short of the entitled whining that many people accused Retakers of at the beginning of all of this.

This is Bioware's product. I agree the ending is bad, but ranting and raving that they aren't doing exactly what you want them to is nothing short of arrogance. Would it be wonderful if they completely got rid of the current ending and wrote a new, better one? Of course. Is that what they are doing? no. Is that perfectly their choice to make? YES.

If you don't like that Bioware gets to control what they do with THEIR work, return your copy of the game and don't buy more Bioware products. Just as they have no obligation to do what you want, you have no obligation to buy their products. That's how the developer-customer relationship works.

[schwarzaj]

Bioware...seriously guys, WTF! You honestly didn't think that a franchise BUILT AROUND PLAYER CHOICE AND STORY would require and ending that reflects the player's choices? Seriously, you honestly expect us to believe your that stupid? Stop the PR bull, admit your mistake, and change the endings.

[BadlyBrowned]

adam_nox wrote...

No need to even ask who's right. We bought the games, we're right.

BULL!!!! You can't go against ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!!!

[Gibb_Shepard]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

When it comes to narrative and logical coherence, yes, you are objectively wrong. You cannot dispute the inconsistencies laid down by the ending. That is not a matter of subjectivity.

[petipas4141]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

petipas4141 wrote...

I feel bad for Mike Gamble honestly. I feel like Casey Hudson and Crap Walters created this mess

I would feel bad for them if not for their absurd PR response. That made me more upset than the ending + the other flaws in the game.

I think the reason I have respect for him is because he was really the only important person who stuck their neck out and talked to people on Twitter (albeit in a limited capacity). I mean, I know he made that bone head statement but still.

[sdfgdsfsdfsfs]

DarkFire77777 wrote...

My view, boycott EA and Bioware until they fix this crap. But I'm certainly not holding hope for Bioware. With their idea of an "extended ending", it seems they basically want to tell us why we are stupid and don't understand their artistically brilliant work (aka, a piece of S*** ending).

If the problem really was EA mismanagement, then they need to be punished. Too bad the people who will ultimately get punished will probably be the people who wanted to do the right thing in the first place.

Modifié par sdfgdsfsdfsfs, 13 avril 2012 - 03:10 .

[clipped_wolf]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

What about your company's pre-launch advertising, Mr Woo?  What about being told exactly what you knew I wanted to hear, knowing that it was not true?

[Velocithon]

DadeLeviathan wrote...

Complaining that Bioware has decided to not do exactly what you want them to do is nothing short of the entitled whining that many people accused Retakers of at the beginning of all of this.

This is Bioware's product. I agree the ending is bad, but ranting and raving that they aren't doing exactly what you want them to is nothing short of arrogance. Would it be wonderful if they completely got rid of the current ending and wrote a new, better one? Of course. Is that what they are doing? no. Is that perfectly their choice to make? YES.

If you don't like that Bioware gets to control what they do with THEIR work, return your copy of the game and don't buy more Bioware products. Just as they have no obligation to do what you want, you have no obligation to buy their products. That's how the developer-customer relationship works.

Oh please. Spare me. Bioware lied about the content in the game. We bought the game expecting said content, and it wasn't there. Stop calling us entitled for that reason. If Bioware hadn't lied about it, this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue. And before you say they can change their mind, they lied as late as a couple months before release...

[cavs25]

adam_nox wrote...

No need to even ask who's right. We bought the games, we're right.

In the rest of the world: the customer is always right, even if they are wrong.

While at the Bioware offices: Hudson: We are listening...but not caring....no seriously go screw yourselfs fans
Is our toy, we can do what we want with it.  You are WRONG we are AWESOME!
75!!!! PERFECT SCORES BIATCHES

Yess guys 

TAKE BACK THE EARTH!

ohh thats right you can't 

Modifié par cavs25, 13 avril 2012 - 03:16 .

[schwarzaj]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

Um, no. Not doing what we want you to do means that your ignoring are feedback. This is obvious with the extendet cut, because virtually none of us wanted "clarification" for the current endings, but the endings changed to reflect our choices and be free of gigantic plot holes, starchild, and mass genicide. Your audiance isn't stupid, and can spot bad wrtiting from a mile away. Also, stop trying to BS your way out of this, because if your recent "most loyal fans of TOR get a month free if your level 50 and have had the game since launch" deal is anything to go by, you suck at it.<_<

[DadeLeviathan]

Velocithon wrote...

Oh please. Spare me. Bioware lied about the content in the game. We bought the game expecting said content, and it wasn't there. Stop calling us entitled for that reason. If Bioware hadn't lied about it, this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue. And before you say they can change their mind, they lied as late as a couple months before release...

I would like you to point out in my post where I disputed that. Yes, their PR for the game pre-launch promised thing that they technically didn't deliver on. I say technically, because only CERTAIN areas of the game (the ending obviously being the most important one) didn't have as much player choice. I say as much, because technically the three options at the end are choices. They're horrible and faux choices, but still choices if a PR guy wanted to turn around and call them choices. 

Secondly, yes the game was promised to NOT have endings that were just A, B, C, but that's exactly what it had. We were told we would have vastly different endings (not necessarily MANY vastly different endings, just endings that were different). That too, was a life. How big of a lie depends on if they were pushing the boundaries of what the game was and basically calling the entire game the ending, which of course many did when this whole ruckus started. 

Does good business practice dictate that they should change the ending and/or introduce that promised choice into the game? Yes. In my opinion, the ending is just bad writing, no more no less. Being a writer myself, my own artistic integrity would demand that I change the ending, not hunker down and refuse to believe that my wonderful creation wasn't a glittering jewel of perfection. 

With that said however, Bioware has decided to 'change,' the ending, to a certain degree. What degree? Well, given the very broadly worded PR, we don't really know. We know there will be more cutscenes to make your choices matter more, but we know very little beyond that. Many have assumed there will be no more gameplay/choices/dialogue/etc, but Bioware has not said there won't be. Granted, they haven't said that there will, either. 

My point, is that at the end of the day, this is still their game. Is it a bad choice, in my opinion, to not fully change the ending? Yes. Do they have the right to refuse to change the ending? ABSOLUTELY. 

At the end of the day, this is not your game. Do you have agency in the game? of course. Were you promised more agency than you recieved? technically, yes. But it is not your game. It is BIoware's right to refuse to change anything, just as it is your right to return your product and refuse to buy any more of their products because you disagree with their decision. That's how capitalism works. 

[schwarzaj]

Velocithon wrote...

DadeLeviathan wrote...

Complaining that Bioware has decided to not do exactly what you want them to do is nothing short of the entitled whining that many people accused Retakers of at the beginning of all of this.

This is Bioware's product. I agree the ending is bad, but ranting and raving that they aren't doing exactly what you want them to is nothing short of arrogance. Would it be wonderful if they completely got rid of the current ending and wrote a new, better one? Of course. Is that what they are doing? no. Is that perfectly their choice to make? YES.

If you don't like that Bioware gets to control what they do with THEIR work, return your copy of the game and don't buy more Bioware products. Just as they have no obligation to do what you want, you have no obligation to buy their products. That's how the developer-customer relationship works.

Oh please. Spare me. Bioware lied about the content in the game. We bought the game expecting said content, and it wasn't there. Stop calling us entitled for that reason. If Bioware hadn't lied about it, this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue. And before you say they can change their mind, they lied as late as a couple months before release...

Exactly, thank you!

[rbrown81]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

The larger the company, the less willing they are to admit/ own up to their mistakes. This is true in the corporate world (As I've experienced in person being a member of several large corporations during my career in Technology).

You won't get Stanley to admit it, and you sure as hell won't get BioWare to. It will be like squeezing blood from a stone, a fruitless endeavor that will only serve to frustrate both sides.

Have faith in your conviction. You know they messed up, and you don't need someone like Stanley to validate it for you. 

[Exeider]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

Whats with the ever increasing time delay? Are people on separate ME fields or something?

Different countries, different time zones, different people, different lives.

and different universes, which means somewhere........out there

.....is a universe......

........where ME3's ending.......

.......doesn't suck.


-AE

[Gwtheyrn]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

Yet I notice you didn't outright DENY that you hate us.

Everyone, grab your torches and pitchforks! We're going to CANADA!!!

[ahandsomeshark]

DadeLeviathan wrote...

Complaining that Bioware has decided to not do exactly what you want them to do is nothing short of the entitled whining that many people accused Retakers of at the beginning of all of this.

This is Bioware's product. I agree the ending is bad, but ranting and raving that they aren't doing exactly what you want them to is nothing short of arrogance. Would it be wonderful if they completely got rid of the current ending and wrote a new, better one? Of course. Is that what they are doing? no. Is that perfectly their choice to make? YES.

If you don't like that Bioware gets to control what they do with THEIR work, return your copy of the game and don't buy more Bioware products. Just as they have no obligation to do what you want, you have no obligation to buy their products. That's how the developer-customer relationship works.

no one was actually complaining about it (in this thread) until Mr. Woo brought it up. The thread complaint was about the claim that they didn't know.

[Exeider]

Gwtheyrn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

Yet I notice you didn't outright DENY that you hate us.

Everyone, grab your torches and pitchforks! We're going to CANADA!!!

I'm already here...............

-AE

[viperabyss]

M0keys wrote...

adam_nox wrote...

No need to even ask who's right. We bought the games, we're right.

Shhh! That's the mindset of a healthy business! 

Eh... no. That's not the mindset of a healthy business. It is a business model that's only asking for trouble.

The mindset of a healthy business is giving customer a reasonable expectation, and meeting or exceeding that expectation.

[schwarzaj]

DadeLeviathan wrote...

Velocithon wrote...

Oh please. Spare me. Bioware lied about the content in the game. We bought the game expecting said content, and it wasn't there. Stop calling us entitled for that reason. If Bioware hadn't lied about it, this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue. And before you say they can change their mind, they lied as late as a couple months before release...

I would like you to point out in my post where I disputed that. Yes, their PR for the game pre-launch promised thing that they technically didn't deliver on. I say technically, because only CERTAIN areas of the game (the ending obviously being the most important one) didn't have as much player choice. I say as much, because technically the three options at the end are choices. They're horrible and faux choices, but still choices if a PR guy wanted to turn around and call them choices. 

Secondly, yes the game was promised to NOT have endings that were just A, B, C, but that's exactly what it had. We were told we would have vastly different endings (not necessarily MANY vastly different endings, just endings that were different). That too, was a life. How big of a lie depends on if they were pushing the boundaries of what the game was and basically calling the entire game the ending, which of course many did when this whole ruckus started. 

Does good business practice dictate that they should change the ending and/or introduce that promised choice into the game? Yes. In my opinion, the ending is just bad writing, no more no less. Being a writer myself, my own artistic integrity would demand that I change the ending, not hunker down and refuse to believe that my wonderful creation wasn't a glittering jewel of perfection. 

With that said however, Bioware has decided to 'change,' the ending, to a certain degree. What degree? Well, given the very broadly worded PR, we don't really know. We know there will be more cutscenes to make your choices matter more, but we know very little beyond that. Many have assumed there will be no more gameplay/choices/dialogue/etc, but Bioware has not said there won't be. Granted, they haven't said that there will, either. 

My point, is that at the end of the day, this is still their game. Is it a bad choice, in my opinion, to not fully change the ending? Yes. Do they have the right to refuse to change the ending? ABSOLUTELY. 

At the end of the day, this is not your game. Do you have agency in the game? of course. Were you promised more agency than you recieved? technically, yes. But it is not your game. It is BIoware's right to refuse to change anything, just as it is your right to return your product and refuse to buy any more of their products because you disagree with their decision. That's how capitalism works. 

These promises were not made by PR, they were made by the DEVELOPER. Casey Hudson came out and said that there wouldn't be an ABC ending. He lied. We, as fans and consumers, have a right to demand the product that was advertised. Also, videogames are a pliable medium, meaning that they can be changed post-release. While Bioware has the right to refuse to change the ending, that doesn't mean that they can't change it. Since it is possible for the ending to be changed, Bioware doesn't have a firm argument outside of their "artistic integrity" BS. Mark my words, Biowares actions with ME3 are going to greatly effect their furture projects sales.

[TreguardD]

Mr. Woo; while we certainly appreciate a member of the Dragon Age team coming down to discuss with us; it would help defuse matters much more if say, someone was to come down from the ME team and discuss things with us.

[Gwtheyrn]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

Vurculac wrote...

Looking back over some of the marketing that was being spewed out in the months leading up to the games release last month, it's hard for me to believe that anyone with half a brain would consider the game we recieved lived up to what was promised. That's just me though.

The leading theory seems to be that EA rushed Bioware and short-changed them on resources, leading them to have to cut a lot of things. And they can't throw EA under a bus and say it's their fault, because they get their money from EA, and EA won't let them apologise because that would make EA look bad by proxy and lower their stock prices.

EA's stock prices are already hitting all time lows. There's usually a big spike after AAA releases. No such spike so far.

Well, that and you don't throw the person who owns your studio and signs your paychecks under the bus if you want to remain employed.


However, I know I'll be in the minority here, but I don't blame EA for this. When your boss gives you a project and says that he/she needs it finished by such and such a time, you can't point the finger at your boss for not getting it completed.  EA, Bioware's parent company, told them that they needed the project wrapped up by a certain date. That what they turned in was lacking in many areas is hardly the fault of EA. The studio knew what it had to get done and the timeframe to do it in.