486 réponses à ce sujet

[Lavans6879]

DarkFire77777 wrote...

My view, boycott EA and Bioware until they fix this crap. But I'm certainly not holding hope for Bioware. With their idea of an "extended ending", it seems they basically want to tell us why we are stupid and don't understand their artistically brilliant work (aka, a piece of S*** ending).

Likelihood is that if BioWare doesn't have something up their sleeve that they're not telling us until the day they show us their ace, then they probably won't fix the ending.

It's blatantly obvious that Shep was supposed to be indoctronated in the original version of the script. BioWare even mentioned that they changed the end of the game, primarily the now non-existent final boss fight with TIM. As to why they changed it? Who knows. But I'm willing to bet that the original concept of the ending was far better than what we got, probably more gratifying too since we got to face stomp TIM in the original cut.

However, I have no more faith in BioWare. Wolf in sheep's clothing - it's clear that EA runs the show now, not BioWare. Knowing EA, they will probably try to milk us for everything we have, because that's what they do best.

Modifié par Lavans6879, 13 avril 2012 - 04:22 .

[Rabid Rooster]

Why even ask for fan feed back if you are just going ignore it or not use it. We say the ending made no sense and was out of left field character and story wise and gave concise feed back as to why. And you guys take from that, oh they just need clairification, that it is your artistic vision so naah naah naah. At least thats how it feels to me.

[iDeevil]

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

Did they really?  So it's a universal truth that EVERYONE liked the endings of those subplots?

But even if it were, they are subplots.  It's not ending the entire journey of the character that *you* essentially became while playing the game.  The stakes in ending Shepards story were SOOO much higher than those subplots.

I think the resolution of those subplots was objectively superior to the game's ending, simply on the basis that they were more varied and took more of the player's choices into account. We could also argue, based on an informal consensus dredged from internet forums like this one, that the resolution of those subplots was far more emotionally satisfying.

BioWare had plenty of material to work with for the game's conclusion, even if they had ignored all the choices the player made earlier in the series. But they didn't even do that right, so it was an unmitigated disaster on several fronts.

I'm not denying ANYTHING you are saying.  I am just pointing out in this game it is totally impossible to effect a universally satisfactory endings for all the fans because we all want, need and desire something different for ourselves.  Our Shepard and our crew.  For this reason, irrespective of the narrative issues of the ending as it stands now, I don't believe any ending has the ability to be what the universal 'we' want.

Nothing more or less.

That doesn't excuse the narrative issues in any way, just an observation of the emotional attachement we have to this game which is deeper than most other forms of entertainment.

[Lavans6879]

iDeevil wrote...

I'm not denying ANYTHING you are saying.  I am just pointing out in this game it is totally impossible to effect a universally satisfactory endings for all the fans because we all want, need and desire something different for ourselves.  Our Shepard and our crew.  For this reason, irrespective of the narrative issues of the ending as it stands now, I don't believe any ending has the ability to be what the universal 'we' want.

I guarantee that if BioWare stuck with their promise of having multiple endings based from the decisions made in the previous 2 games, that a whole lot more people would be happy with ME3 and BioWare.

[wantedman dan]

Tazzmission wrote...

do you even understand on how a buisness works?

a buisness will do what it can to reach every form of consumer and imo no bioware dosent owe you a apology for doing what a normal buisness does

you think the more you atagonize the developers you will get what you want but thats not how the world works

be gratefull your getting a free dlc ending at all and consider that there apology because they can basicly say you know what we arent gona do nothing

Umm, yeah, I do. You apparently have zero idea how capitalism works, just by a preliminary judgment of this post.

A normal business does not intentionally, or unintentionally, mislead the consumers the company needs to buy their products in the present and in the future without ramifications. Bioware advertised a product that did not fulfill said advertising. 

A normal business will listen to the feedback it receives and genuinely improve because of it. In fact, feedback and criticism is the hallmark for any genuine improvement for any entity, be it a person or a corporation or an organization.

I appreciate that ironic double standard because it accurately describes what will happen to the Bioware fan base if they don't deliver on this Extended Cut DLC. We won't do nothing, and it will be accurately reflected in their sales figures for anything else they want to release.

[oblique9]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

People that don't have jobs wont be able to understand you here. If you have a job you'll know this is possible and makes sense.

I get what your saying (both of you).

I do however think there are lots of things Bioware could do PR wise that would calm people down and make people happier. Being more open about what things they are considering is certainly near the top of the list.

[iDeevil]

Lavans6879 wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

I'm not denying ANYTHING you are saying.  I am just pointing out in this game it is totally impossible to effect a universally satisfactory endings for all the fans because we all want, need and desire something different for ourselves.  Our Shepard and our crew.  For this reason, irrespective of the narrative issues of the ending as it stands now, I don't believe any ending has the ability to be what the universal 'we' want.

I guarantee that if BioWare stuck with their promise of having multiple endings based from the decisions made in the previous 2 games, that a whole lot more people would be happy with ME3 and BioWare.

Sure, that is entirely possible.  It's equally possible that people will still be ultimately pissed off and be acting in much the same manner.  We'll never know.  All I do know, from much experience with fandom is, angry people are always the loudest and fans never react in the way you'd expect.  That's not to say that they are right, or wrong, just an observation.

[Zarathustra666]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

I don't believe the core of the discussion regarding the endings is this "I wanna be right" childish behavior you accuse us of. BioWare promised X and delivered Y. "No ABC endings", just to quote one of the promises. And we got ABC endings.

All BioWare says about it is "we are proud of what we've accomplished, but we will clarify." How come BioWare said NOTHING about this ABC ending issue, for example? No words on the reasons behind your pride of the game. No words addressing the many specific complaints we, your customers, have extensively made.

This demands discussion. Productive, respectful discussion. But still, it deserves discussion as we, consumers, want to know why and how such a beloved game ended like it did. When I read a statement like the ones you've been making, I feel that BioWare demands respect (which is, of course, well deserved) but offers no respect in return.

We want to know: why did you promise X and delivered Y? Why are you proud of doing this? If you don't believe you promised X and delivered Y, tell us WHY this is your belief. If you don't believe you've delivered a flawed ending, an ABC ending, tell us why. Why does BioWare believe that a 3-colored ending is something to be proud of? Why do you believe we've got what you've promised? But please, be specific. There is enough player feedback for BioWare to raise the most flagrant issues and address them -- not bowing to everyone's whims, but simply quantifying what is really bothering the community.

Please, address the issues we've been asking you to address for the past month (and I know the DLC intends to do this, but we want to hear from you the reasons behind all this). You deserve respect, and so do we. And we feel disrespected as fans and consumers.

And if you don't believe we deserve these explanations (which is what it seems), then you should learn from some very successful companies, such as Amazon, which has the following mission statement:  "Our vision is to be earth's most customer centric company."

[ahandsomeshark]

wantedman dan wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

do you even understand on how a buisness works?

a buisness will do what it can to reach every form of consumer and imo no bioware dosent owe you a apology for doing what a normal buisness does

you think the more you atagonize the developers you will get what you want but thats not how the world works

be gratefull your getting a free dlc ending at all and consider that there apology because they can basicly say you know what we arent gona do nothing

Umm, yeah, I do. You apparently have zero idea how capitalism works, just by a preliminary judgment of this post.

A normal business does not intentionally, or unintentionally, mislead the consumers the company needs to buy their products in the present and in the future without ramifications. Bioware advertised a product that did not fulfill said advertising. 

A normal business will listen to the feedback it receives and genuinely improve because of it. In fact, feedback and criticism is the hallmark for any genuine improvement for any entity, be it a person or a corporation or an organization.

I appreciate that ironic double standard because it accurately describes what will happen to the Bioware fan base if they don't deliver on this Extended Cut DLC. We won't do nothing, and it will be accurately reflected in their sales figures for anything else they want to release.

this. businesses don't do things out of the goodness of their hearts. they do it because of $$$$. The only way to provoke a change is to threaten their $$$.

[McBeath]

Tazzmission wrote...

do you even understand on how a buisness works?

a buisness will do what it can to reach every form of consumer and imo no bioware dosent owe you a apology for doing what a normal buisness does

you think the more you atagonize the developers you will get what you want but thats not how the world works

be gratefull your getting a free dlc ending at all and consider that there apology because they can basicly say you know what we arent gona do nothing

Actually it seems that you have NO idea how a business works.

A business has only a single goal... to produce profit.  That's right... money. 

To do that it requires customers that are willing to purchase thier goods.  At times a business will have to spend money to create a product or keep thier customers "satisfied"... and in turn those customers will spend thier money.  It's really not that hard to understand... it's about the bottom line.

Car companies come out with models all the time that fail.  They don't tell thier customers "hey, it's art!  Deal with it!".  They change them because nobody will buy them.  Game companies should be treated like auto manufactorers... if you burn me once that's it.  Your name should engender some brand loyalty. 

Cheers.  McBeath.

[N7 Bravo]

[/quote]
And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

[/quote]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The only people want bioware (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunintion to say the ending is bad"

NO. MR WOO WE HAVE ALREADY ESTABLISHED ON THIS FORUM AND COMMUNITY THAT THE ENDING IS BAD. WE DONT NEED AMMUNITION.  IF YOU WERE ACTUALLY INTELLIGENT AND WERE REALLY "LISTENING" ITS BECAUSE WE HAVE JUST BEEN GETTING SILENCE. 

Modifié par N7 Bravo, 13 avril 2012 - 04:36 .

[Lavans6879]

iDeevil wrote...

Sure, that is entirely possible.  It's equally possible that people will still be ultimately pissed off and be acting in much the same manner.  We'll never know.

As an observation, a good majority of the people who are voicing their disgust with ME3 and their lack of faith in BioWare justify it on BioWare's broken promises. Believe it or not, but there are people who dislike the ME3 ending, not necessarily because it was poorly written, but because it didn't fulfil on the promise that BioWare gave us 5 years ago. In fact, it completely goes against the promise that BioWare gave us.

[wantedman dan]

McBeath wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

do you even understand on how a buisness works?

a buisness will do what it can to reach every form of consumer and imo no bioware dosent owe you a apology for doing what a normal buisness does

you think the more you atagonize the developers you will get what you want but thats not how the world works

be gratefull your getting a free dlc ending at all and consider that there apology because they can basicly say you know what we arent gona do nothing

Actually it seems that you have NO idea how a business works.

A business has only a single goal... to produce profit.  That's right... money. 

To do that it requires customers that are willing to purchase thier goods.  At times a business will have to spend money to create a product or keep thier customers "satisfied"... and in turn those customers will spend thier money.  It's really not that hard to understand... it's about the bottom line.

Car companies come out with models all the time that fail.  They don't tell thier customers "hey, it's art!  Deal with it!".  They change them because nobody will buy them.  Game companies should be treated like auto manufactorers... if you burn me once that's it.  Your name should engender some brand loyalty. 

Cheers.  McBeath.

Kindly, ownt.

[Rabid Rooster]

Zarathustra666 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

I don't believe the core of the discussion regarding the endings is this "I wanna be right" childish behavior you accuse us of. BioWare promised X and delivered Y. "No ABC endings", just to quote one of the promises. And we got ABC endings.

All BioWare says about it is "we are proud of what we've accomplished, but we will clarify." How come BioWare said NOTHING about this ABC ending issue, for example? No words on the reasons behind your pride of the game. No words addressing the many specific complaints we, your customers, have extensively made.

This demands discussion. Productive, respectful discussion. But still, it deserves discussion as we, consumers, want to know why and how such a beloved game ended like it did. When I read a statement like the ones you've been making, I feel that BioWare demands respect (which is, of course, well deserved) but offers no respect in return.

We want to know: why did you promise X and delivered Y? Why are you proud of doing this? If you don't believe you promised X and delivered Y, tell us WHY this is your belief. If you don't believe you've delivered a flawed ending, an ABC ending, tell us why. Why does BioWare believe that a 3-colored ending is something to be proud of? Why do you believe we've got what you've promised? But please, be specific. There is enough player feedback for BioWare to raise the most flagrant issues and address them -- not bowing to everyone's whims, but simply quantifying what is really bothering the community.

Please, address the issues we've been asking you to address for the past month (and I know the DLC intends to do this, but we want to hear from you the reasons behind all this). You deserve respect, and so do we. And we feel disrespected as fans and consumers.

And if you don't believe we deserve these explanations (which is what it seems), then you should learn from some very successful companies, such as Amazon, which has the following mission statement:  "Our vision is to be earth's most customer centric company."

Thank you, this is what I feel as well but you put it in much better words than I did in my own post.

[iDeevil]

Lavans6879 wrote...

iDeevil wrote...

Sure, that is entirely possible.  It's equally possible that people will still be ultimately pissed off and be acting in much the same manner.  We'll never know.

As an observation, a good majority of the people who are voicing their disgust with ME3 and their lack of faith in BioWare justify it on BioWare's broken promises. Believe it or not, but there are people who dislike the ME3 ending, not necessarily because it was poorly written, but because it didn't fulfil on the promise that BioWare gave us 5 years ago. In fact, it completely goes against the promise that BioWare gave us.

And believe it or not, many think they have also fulfilled those promises.  The thing about the promises made is all dependent on the interpretation of them.  My point still stands, you can NOT make people 80% happy 50% of the time and it's even harder to make an invested group happy when they will interpret things to try and match up with their wants and needs.

That's not to say that fans don't have a right to these opinions and beliefs, I have my own and it's that narratively the ending doesn't make sense.  IF it did the endings would 100% live up to the promises given as is my understanding of them.

[asdfsdadfs]

ImmovableMover wrote...

jonal11 wrote...

There wasn't a huge demand for the Extended Cut Ending....until we played ME3 and realized how much a pile of **** the ending was. If they had done it right in the first place, there would have been ZERO demand for it.

Pretty much this

Frankly, I find it absurd that any writer, proffessional or otherwise, would ever choose to end a Trilogy on a bunch of unanswered questions for the sake of fuelling "speculation".

How anyone could be surprised that the audience would reach the end and expect the plot threads to be wrapped up as much as possible (especially considering they've stated they don't plan to make any more games set after these events) is astounding; I can't think of a single example where "Leave them wondering what the hell just happened" worked out well in audience reaction.

Very poor, very amateur to be honest, writing.

Nothing to do with "Story" or "Artistic Integrity", unfortunately.  It's about selling DLC by leaving as many possibilities open as they can.  Don't believe me?  See endgame prompt / slap in the face / biggest middle finger in EA history.

[DeathWingKingUltimate]

Face it fans, This game was falsely advertised, they lied for the sake of the market, and they're hiding behind these "Artistic Integrity" or "We can't please everyone" excuses

Modifié par DeathWingKingUltimate, 13 avril 2012 - 04:48 .

[DJBare]

How about Bioware developers just give their opinions on why they enjoyed/support/dislike/not support the current ending, you know, like you expect from the fans, sensible critical feedback, because quite honestly Mr Woo, your current feedback is alienating your fans.
I like the rebel in you Mr Woo, but sometimes you have to know when to curb it.

[asdfsdadfs]

EvilChani wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Velocithon wrote...

Bioware: "Hey we're gonna put this, this, this, this, and even THIS into the game IT'LL BE GREAT!!!"

Fans: " OMG this is going to be so cool they're doing everything we want!!!"

*game is released*

Fans: "...dafuq nothing you said was in here..."

Bioware: "We didn't know there was such a demand for it"

Fans:

This is literally the perfect way to explain it. 

Agreed. And then they have the gall to act like the fans are somehow out of line by complaining. If ME3 were anything other than a game, BioWare would be slapped with a lawsuit for flat out fraud so fast it'd make their heads spin. But, since it's a game, they can sit there laughing at us (while they hold our cash) and calling us childish for not respecting the fact that what we paid for was not what was promised to us. The list of their lies about this game is very long, and their dismissive attitude toward the customers who aren't kissing their ass is grating. Newsflash, BioWare...you aren't paying us to play your damned game. We paid you for something and you didn't deliver, and some of us aren't going to forget it. 

Quoted for Truth.  If we could find some way to turn this into a practical signature.....well, we do have "Hold the Wallet".  And the "All you can do is vote with your wallet".  I just like the frankness.  Kudos to you!  

[AtreiyaN7]

Is this thread serious?

*reads about OP's anger*
*reads about OP's potential additional anger*
*finds that she doesn't care about the OP being upset by a dev comment that seems mostly harmless*
*decides that this thread to not to be taken particularly seriously*

[asdfsdadfs]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

People that don't have jobs wont be able to understand you here. If you have a job you'll know this is possible and makes sense.

I have a job and I do understand my friend... but it hurts that I spent hard earned cash (by working long hours in the hospital, sometimes at night) on something (the CE in this instance) that turns out to be something completely different compared to the thing which was promised by the ones who sold it to me! Is it just me or was I manipulated and lied to (so to speak)?

So yeah, it would be nice if they took our concerns seriously even if they do not completely do as many of us want them to do! And I hope that they will manage to fix the ending in a way that is acceptable to most of the disappointed fans, so they can earn our trust again. Then maybe I will consider buying from them again in the future.

There was no "so to speak".  Even if some twisted PR Rep can somehow explain that you were not directly lied to (probably requiring SPACE MAGIC! to do so), we were all manipulated.  

[Dawson14]

Mr. Woo= Mod trolling

[Ashilana]

Stanley Woo wrote...

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

Productive discussion?  Has anyone seen a productive discussion going on with Bioware/EA?  I must have missed something.  When did they invite some community members to meet with them at their headquarters (something other game companies have been known to do) or even released a press release that wasn't insulting to their customers?  

[asdfsdadfs]

[quote]Subguy614 wrote...


[/quote]


But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

[/quote]

What answers ARE you willing to provide?[/quote]

That's the real trick, isn't it?  Anything that doesn't promote "speculation" supports one side or another, and can therefore be used as a weapon.  Therefore, no one is allowed to give us any legitimate facts.  End of story.

[Dreogan]

Stepped in to witness another crucifixion of Stanley Woo. One day the gentleman will understand the audience determines the success or failure of the work's vision. Intent means nothing.

And yes, no matter if the work's intention was or was not blue/green/red the audience has determined the ending is blue/green/red. The ending is a choice between A, B, and C. Whether this audience reaction is the result of a catastrophic failure of execution or a failure to judge the audience points to only one outcome: storytelling failure.

Modifié par Dreogan, 13 avril 2012 - 05:03 .