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ARE THEY REALLY SERIOUS?


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#301
karek

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Tazzmission wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

and besides they dont owe anybody a appology


And exactly why not?


do you even understand on how a buisness works?

a buisness will do what it can to reach every form of consumer and imo no bioware dosent owe you a apology for doing what a normal buisness does

you think the more you atagonize the developers you will get what you want but thats not how the world works

be gratefull your getting a free dlc ending at all and consider that there apology because they can basicly say you know what we arent gona do nothing

I think you don't understand how consermerism works. Companies are responsible to their customers, not the other way around. We have a RIGHT to show frustration with a company and they have a RIGHT to make the bad buisness decision of deriding their consumers through false advertisements and direct mockery(like mr. Woo's recent comments) and you have a RIGHT to dislike that they're demanding the company actually respond to consumer discontent or risk never selling them product related to this formerly profitable line of sales again.


Basically you're wrong and kind mean for lack of better boardsafe terminology, stop talking or risk being relentlessly mocked for not understanding the world you live in.

#302
DJBare

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I'll just leave this here www.youtube.com/watch

#303
Dreogan

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DJBare wrote...

I'll just leave this here www.youtube.com/watch


... rage rekindled.

#304
Guest_Opsrbest_*

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Stan does a great job. Anyone on the BSN long enough knows what it means when he starts posting. He is the fire brigade, the first responder, the only person who ever bothers to take the time and state his opinion without care of how people are going to respond to it.

He is present every IP Bioware releases when the fans are in an uproar; and every DLC.

The main has the patience of a zen monk and the style of Shaft.

#305
Dead_Meat357

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.


If you don't give the fans what they want, you aren't taking their feed back into account. Simply seeing the words appear on screen and taking no action is worse than not listening. It gives some people the feeling of hope that you might eventually give them what they wanted which was a satisfying conclusion to an epic story. This is a product that is being sold to customers. The customers are angry because what they got is less than they were led to believe they would get and what they saw in the last few minutes of the game was jarring and traumatic. Sounds dramatic doesn't it? It is the truth. When the players are so emotionally invested in a story which has been so personalized up to this point, and we are left with no good choices and no positive outcome, the fans can't help but feeling betrayed, outraged and in some cases even ripped off.

While I think it's important to believe in the product you are making, and you should enjoy making it, at some point a story grows beyond it's creators. It isn't about what you want anymore. It's not about artistic integrity or even your vision of how it should be. The game series has transcended all of that whether you wanted it to or not. While you are the content provider, it is important to be sensitive to the emotional investment the players have in it. They are after all paying customers. When they aren't getting what they felt like they paid for, you need to address that.

Now ask everyone here about what it would honestly take to satisfy them at a minimum and you will get a different answer from each person who replies to the thread and potentially more than one response. It's unlikely you'd be able to collect data that's not skewed in some form or fashion so providing something that would change the overall consensus on the endings, at least among those who vehemently despise the ending, is difficult. I can appreciate endings are hard to write.

But the attitude of "We are proud of the work we've done" and "we won't change our artistic vision" and drawing a line in the sand of not really changing the ending is never going to lead to anything but negative feedback. You do realize that? Yeah the descision is BioWare's no one denies that. But you've failed to truly grasp the real reasons why we are upset and nothing BioWare has said to date gives us any hope or the slightest impression you guys are actually listening to our grievences. This is why you see so many similar threads and so much rage on these forums. Until we actually get the sense that you actually care enough to take action, and that action will be meaningful and worth the effort, expect threads like this one to continue to pop up daily.

I'm going to tell you now, that clarity which doesn't change the ending, probably won't cut it. We didn't as a general rule like the endings at all. The entire catalyst deus ex machina batch of sad ass endings which seemingly leave no potential for sequels (and no, prequels do not count) down the line just doesn't sit well with us.

Short version of what needs to be addressed: 

1.) Deus Ex Machina plot devices like the Catalyst and Crucibal are well below the standards of quality presented in the bulk of the game and the series as a whole. This is not indiciative of BioWare's typical writing capabilities. You guys went a new direction which seems incongruent with material presented so far. It's out of place and out of character. It's annoying and we just didn't like it. Frankly all of it needs to go out the airlock. (Javik has great ideas for dealing with things like this.) 

2.) Happy endings. Why not have these as an option? The fact is Americans do not generally like sad endings. Especially not for something we actually care about. What was even worse than seeing Shepard die, was seeing the Normandy destroyed (AGAIN) and seeing the crew stranded and screwed over. You also have to realize here that the Normandy has been our Shepard's home for the last two games and it is a character unto itself. It's loss seems pointless, wasteful and it's as sad for some of us as losing any other characters.

3.) The galaxy seems worse off than it might have been if we had let the Reapers do what they do. We need to know that there is indeed a bright future for all races and worlds we fought to save. It takes more than statements like "no one is going to starve and the relays can be rebuilt one millenia or so later to satisfy this.

Will the upcoming DLC address these problems? Items 2 and 3 seem reasonable to address and in fact fan story boards and edits of existing endings with story boards seem to show that these are indeed fixable without too much effort. That first item is hard to deal with. Especially given the plot holes, incongruence with the rest of the series etc.

For me personally, I'd almost rather see indoctrination theory proven right, give you the benefit of the doubt for creating it and then forgive you for giving us an incomplete story. Of course that means you have to set things right with DLC or give us an ME4 in which we really do take back Earth and get rid of the Reapers without some Deus Ex Machina plot device. In fact cut scenes in the trailers show that Reapers can be damaged by conventional fire. Albeit needing a great deal of resources and coordination of fleets to do so. Let the forces we have gathered do the job they were brought there to do.

I'd rather see a massive death toll and people prevail through sheer determination and will to survive, and the ending be based on your war assets and strength of military forces with the Relays intact as this would leave real hope for a bright tomorrow even though the overall tone of the game is grim. It's all very simple and workable.

Hell I'd love it if the crucibal didn't do anything at all. It's just a device so massive in scope that it would take an entire united galaxy to build it and bringing people together was it's true purpose. Sounds like a Hallmark card, but it's better than Star Child. (And requires less changes to the game to fix.) 

Oh well I'm done with my tangent.

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 13 avril 2012 - 05:20 .


#306
Twisted and Mean

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Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.


It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.


Sorry, I know Bioware staff has better things to do than argue with every person on the forum, but I couldn't simply let this one pass.

First of all, there are different kinds of statements:

1) I can say, "I like X" and another person can say, "I dislike X". There is no argument, because we just shared our opinion. No question about "legitimacy" is present at all.

2) Alternatively, I can say, "X is bad, because Y". 
If someone says, "Actually, X is good because Z" or "Y is wrong, because Z", then there is a discussion and either point must be "legitimate". If someone simply says, "No" without any further clarification on Y or keeps silent, that means that they just aren't listening.

There are tons of video blogs, posts, and comments on why Mass Effect 3 endings were bad and not a single one justifying them from an artistic, storytelling or lore point of view. So people are naturaly sceptical about a "clarification clip", which is supposed to miraculously end all controvercy.

Also, people want Bioware to acnowledge the issue not so they can gloat about it and say, "I told you so!" They want to know that their opinion matters to Bioware more than pride and self-satisfaction. This does not seem like a bad thing to me at all.

#307
M0keys

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Is this thread serious?

*reads about OP's anger*
*reads about OP's potential additional anger*
*finds that she doesn't care about the OP being upset by a dev comment that seems mostly harmless*
*decides that this thread to not to be taken particularly seriously*


Just out of curiosity, is your sig...comparing Casey Hudson (or similar Bioware developmental head) to Alfred hitchcock?

#308
SwiftRevenant

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.


Have you ever seen Restaurant Impossible on the food network?  There are these chefs in the kitchen who get all this feedback and despite what they hear about how bad their food is they still "believe" their food is good.  Not until they drag the cooks out to the actual floor where the diners are eating do they realize their food isn't as good as they thought.  In the food/video game industry if you do not cater to your customers you do not survive.  

#309
hawkens982

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.


Basically your just saying your listening but ignoring it.

#310
Dreogan

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hawkens982 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.


Basically your just saying your listening but ignoring it.


ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!

#311
Oldbones2

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.


I like you a lot Stanley, but in this you are wrong.

You may be listening.  Someone may even be writing down everything we say, but you are hardly taking our feeback into account.

No one could make all the PR mistakes Bioware has made over the last month if they took this feedback into account.

#312
Allan Schumacher

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I like you a lot Stanley, but in this you are wrong.

You may be listening. Someone may even be writing down everything we say, but you are hardly taking our feeback into account.


To provide an example:

Someone may provide a very good piece of feedback on an issue, but it may not thematically go along with other ideas that have been envisioned. People will look at the feedback, and critically assess how that feedback can exist beside other decisions. After examining the feedback, it's determined that it undermines the other changes in plan, so it is not utilized.

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 13 avril 2012 - 06:15 .


#313
Isichar

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I like you a lot Stanley, but in this you are wrong.

You may be listening. Someone may even be writing down everything we say, but you are hardly taking our feeback into account.


To provide an example:

Someone may provide a very good piece of feedback on an issue, but it may not thematically go along with other ideas that have been envisioned. People will look at the feedback, and critically assess how that feedback can exist beside other decisions. After examining the feedback, it's determined that it undermines the other changes in plan, so it is not utilized.

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.


The fans are like vulchers, ready to prey on your every word until theres nothing left.

#314
Reptilian Rob

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DJBare wrote...

I'll just leave this here www.youtube.com/watch

EXPLAIN THIS BULL****!

#315
The Angry One

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I like you a lot Stanley, but in this you are wrong.

You may be listening. Someone may even be writing down everything we say, but you are hardly taking our feeback into account.


To provide an example:

Someone may provide a very good piece of feedback on an issue, but it may not thematically go along with other ideas that have been envisioned. People will look at the feedback, and critically assess how that feedback can exist beside other decisions. After examining the feedback, it's determined that it undermines the other changes in plan, so it is not utilized.

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.


Well let me ask you something. Would you read this feedback, consider it, and then respond "Yeah well it's my artistic vision, so tough."?

Modifié par The Angry One, 13 avril 2012 - 06:18 .


#316
cutegigi

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I like you a lot Stanley, but in this you are wrong.

You may be listening. Someone may even be writing down everything we say, but you are hardly taking our feeback into account.


To provide an example:

Someone may provide a very good piece of feedback on an issue, but it may not thematically go along with other ideas that have been envisioned. People will look at the feedback, and critically assess how that feedback can exist beside other decisions. After examining the feedback, it's determined that it undermines the other changes in plan, so it is not utilized.

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.


alan, the original context is about knowing if such feedback exist or not exist.
not really about what done to the feedback. Of cuorse not all feedback can be implemented. That is understood. But you must at least admit that somebody did make a feedback before, and you know about it.

#317
DonYourAviators

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Anyone else find it surprising that BioWare would prefer promote their own incompetence than admit to a mistake? Who wants to buy a product from a company with no idea as opposed to a company that made a mistake, admitted to it, and learnt from it?

"Oh, we meant to do it!" Right.

#318
The_Crazy_Hand

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

To provide an example:

Someone may provide a very good piece of feedback on an issue, but it may not thematically go along with other ideas that have been envisioned. People will look at the feedback, and critically assess how that feedback can exist beside other decisions. After examining the feedback, it's determined that it undermines the other changes in plan, so it is not utilized.

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.


The problem is this still begits a value of what you want to do, over what those who pay your check want you to do.  Sorry, but I can not agree with this line of thought.  I 
can understand if there's technical limitations, or the cost is too high, or it takes way too long to implement, but "nah, that conflicts with my personal vision" is not acceptable.

If you want to make "art", then just consign yourself to the idea of keeping things rigid, announce this as your new policy, and people will at least respect your position (however much they disagree with it), but trying to do it both ways is NEVER going to work. 

#319
Dead_Meat357

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I like you a lot Stanley, but in this you are wrong.

You may be listening. Someone may even be writing down everything we say, but you are hardly taking our feeback into account.


To provide an example:

Someone may provide a very good piece of feedback on an issue, but it may not thematically go along with other ideas that have been envisioned. People will look at the feedback, and critically assess how that feedback can exist beside other decisions. After examining the feedback, it's determined that it undermines the other changes in plan, so it is not utilized.

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.


That's a nice way of saying; "If it fits with what we are doing and we actually like it, great, but don't count on it." And again I say, you guys don't seem to really understand the actual issues that people have with the endings. Until you acknowledge those issues and actually outline some sort of plan to address these in a satisfactory way, you will continue to see these threads and the forums will be filled with more rage than praise. You have upset the paying customers and can't seem to grasp the fundemental reasons why they are upset. Not understanding your customers is the beginning of the end for any business.

You made a game 99% awesome despite one or two little things. Come on, give us that extra 1%. It's the difference between having a product that is to traumatic you never want to replay anything with the name Mass Effect on it and replaying the game 9 times so far like I did with ME2.

#320
Lavans6879

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.


Please clarify. Is it the "creators" that disagree, or is it the EA overlords that disagree?

I find it difficult to believe that BioWare had full control over the story and ending of Mass Effect 3, especially considering how BioWare was known for it's excellent story telling prior to being absorbed into EA's monopoly.

#321
Reptilian Rob

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Oh god, the dev quotes in this thread are full of hilarity.

#322
Oldbones2

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I like you a lot Stanley, but in this you are wrong.

You may be listening. Someone may even be writing down everything we say, but you are hardly taking our feeback into account.


To provide an example:

Someone may provide a very good piece of feedback on an issue, but it may not thematically go along with other ideas that have been envisioned. People will look at the feedback, and critically assess how that feedback can exist beside other decisions. After examining the feedback, it's determined that it undermines the other changes in plan, so it is not utilized.

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.


Thanks for repsonding!

I would have to agree with your statement entirely.

However it does kind of drive me insane with anger, since you told us weeks ago to give you all the feedback we could and then you would try to accomodate our wants/needs/desires as best you could.

Instead perhaps you guys could have said something more like, "give us your feedback, we'll look it over however none of it can clash with our original intent and/or add new ideas that go against the vision we have for the ending, which has yet to be explained to the fans."


You know, so we wouldn't have wasted time and energy writing pages of stuff that you would immediately dismiss and instead focus asking for things you would actually consider.


Maybe if someone could have explained the ideas that were invisioned in detail, say on the forum or at PAX east, we would actually have a better idea of whats on the table.


Do you guys really think that letting us just shoot around in the dark with no idea of what you accept and what you dismiss is going to net you a profitable trove of data for what we want in the EE DLC?

Modifié par Oldbones2, 13 avril 2012 - 06:37 .


#323
Reptilian Rob

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Lavans6879 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The feedback is not used as the creators disagree with the author that it's valid, but that doesn't mean the feedback was not taken into account during the decision process.


Please clarify. Is it the "creators" that disagree, or is it the EA overlords that disagree?

I find it difficult to believe that BioWare had full control over the story and ending of Mass Effect 3, especially considering how BioWare was known for it's excellent story telling prior to being absorbed into EA's monopoly.

Shhhh

Don't speak bad of the overlords!

#324
Shajar

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Guys stop teasing Stanley, you know they cant say anything about this, bosses dont take it lightly if workers disagree with them ehh? ;)

#325
Mev186

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My question is, How can a company get this much negative feedback on a product and not at question whether they made the right decisions. Or the very least, question whether or not there is something wrong with the product.

At what point does it stop being "Artistic integrity" and become pride gone amok