486 réponses à ce sujet

[Grudge_NL]

DadeLeviathan wrote...

Complaining that Bioware has decided to not do exactly what you want them to do is nothing short of the entitled whining that many people accused Retakers of at the beginning of all of this.

This is Bioware's product. I agree the ending is bad, but ranting and raving that they aren't doing exactly what you want them to is nothing short of arrogance. Would it be wonderful if they completely got rid of the current ending and wrote a new, better one? Of course. Is that what they are doing? no. Is that perfectly their choice to make? YES.

If you don't like that Bioware gets to control what they do with THEIR work, return your copy of the game and don't buy more Bioware products. Just as they have no obligation to do what you want, you have no obligation to buy their products. That's how the developer-customer relationship works.

Exactly. As a very small game 'developer' I completely agree with this. All of the times I collect feedback from my Target Audience. Sometimes their feedback is reflected in a change.  And Sometimes their feedback isn't used as I disagreed completely with the feedback.

That's because the Game Developers have the right to choose their opinion above the customers, if 'The Developer' is able to give a good argument/statement.

HOWEVER

Bioware on the other hand has refused to give any Argument/Statement about why they chose this type of ending. (except for the famous 'Artistic Integrity').

They chose to quote with 'expensive' Words in the hope Fans would buy it.  Their second Attempt, being Free DLC ( including the Extended cut), has also upset the community.  Their description on this DLC is rather vague and can be interpreted in many ways. On top of that it still takes months until we hear 'something' about this extended cut.

In both cases it has been communication that has caused this Forum Riot. So yes, Bioware can choose whatever they want to do with their product. But the fanbase 'whining' is in my opinion deserved, as Bioware failed everytime in communication. This type of ignoring the fanbase ( or throwing singular powerful words at them) will not stop or prevent Anger, it will only make it worse.

Modifié par Grudge_NL, 13 avril 2012 - 08:12 .

[Lavans6879]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Lavans6879 wrote...

Please clarify. Is it the "creators" that disagree, or is it the EA overlords that disagree?

I find it difficult to believe that BioWare had full control over the story and ending of Mass Effect 3, especially considering how BioWare was known for it's excellent story telling prior to being absorbed into EA's monopoly.

Unfortunately this isn't something I can possibly answer.  Not because I'm not allowed to, but because I typically don't interact with EA employees that aren't also BioWare employees.  I set up a build remotely once for David Silverman.  Seemed like a nice enough fellow.

I feel that BioWare is willing to accept their responsibility for the issues our games have, which I thought was put forward pretty well when Mike Laidlaw when he spoke in May last year in response to DA2.  /shrug

Being completely level, I respect your acknowledgement of the question. However, personally speaking, do you believe that owning up to the issues or mistakes presented in a commercial product has any weight if no action is taken to correct said issues or mistakes?

When I talk about artistic integrity, I'm not just throwing it out there to give weight to my posts. I enjoy telling stories, and I enjoy producing art. During the course of high school, I have taken every form of art that my school offered - photography, digital art, printmaking, painting, and pottery. When I draw picture or write a concept/story for myself and share it with my friends, constructive criticism helps me to produce a better art piece/story in the future, but that doesn't mean that I have to correct the immediate piece of work that I had put my effort into. However, that changes when I take paid commissions from clients. If I present them with a product and they offer criticism and obvious distaste in what I had produced, saying something like "I'm listening to your feedback, but I'm not going to change XYZ because I want to preserve my own artistic integrity" simply won't fly. It's not good for business, be it commercial or personal, and it destroys trust.

If Mass Effect was a game like Minecraft, something constructed on personal time for little or no profit with the intent of just having fun, then I can understand BioWare's reluctance in changing or offering varying endings. However, in relative terms, Mass Effect is more of a commission because it is first and foremost a product paid for by your consumers. The unfortunate nature of such a large scale commercial product is that you won't be able to pelase everyone, but personally, you should at least aim to please the majority of the consumer base.

We are being openly displeased with the product presented, not because we want to trample the ME team's artistic integrity, but because it's not what we expected to receive when we paid $60+ on the product. Throughout the course of the last 5 years and 3 games, we were given an interactive story to play and make decisions that suit us, the players, best. We were given the flexibility to shape our own Commander Shepard, and were given the luxury of seeing how our actions affect the story. We have communicated with BioWare that we want to continue to see that level of freedom in future Mass Effect titles, primarily Mass Effect 3, and that's what BioWare promised us. However, in the eyes of your average consumer, BioWare did not deliver. All of the freedoms of playing how we want to play, to shape our own Commander Shepard, to see the rewards and reprocussions of our decisions was taken away from us. Now, Mass Effect 3 is being treated like a personal piece of art rather than a commission, specifically due to the reluctance to take action on the feedback being given.

Modifié par Lavans6879, 13 avril 2012 - 08:15 .

[Kalas82]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

pardon but what? I´m not demanding anything, i will or won`t buy future Bioware games depending on the way this matter handels..and it`s lookin bad..that`s all, i`m no retaker or hold-ur-wallet-guy.
But seriously..what?
How is the following sentence valid : It is possible to completly disagree with you while still taking you feedback into account?
Now i do get the PR-talk behind it..yes, you are listening you just think everything you hear is invalid/stupid..k got that. But how can you take anything into account with set premise?
You people just don`t realise that the one thing you had going for you is Story-telling, it`s not the technic behind your games (while ME runs kinda smooth, all your other products are mediocre in that regard),
it`s not gameplay-mechanics (ever since deciding to drop the AD&D-license you`ve been strugglin to bring something to the table here) and now since you are told the very first time by that many people that your Story-tellin sucks you activate "we know everything better mode?"-> completly disagree.
Your staff should go check on the SWTOR-Team and ask them how well that behavior went down.

[FridgeRaider88]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think this is muddy territory.  It really looks like you're suggesting that we shouldn't bother doing what we want to do, but should cater our games to the people that would give us money.  This retroactively assumes that the entire Mass Effect franchise was not something that BioWare wanted to make.  I think one of the worst things you can do is make game developers make a game that they don't want to make.

I see far too much passion, enthusiasm, hardwork, and commitment from my coworkers in Edmonton to assume that we aren't making what we want to make.  I've only been with the company since 2009, but I'd be skeptical that any of the BioWare games were in any way games that the BioWare studio didn't want to make.  I'd go as far as saying that BioWare was so good at making games that they wanted to make, that it reflected in their quality and helped build the fanbase I'm talking with right now.

I would argue that the problem is that Bioware were TOO focused on making the game that they wanted to make, rather than giving many fans what they wanted (i.e. closure, meaningful choices, fewer plot holes, thematic consistency, etc). If, like Mike Gamble suggested, Bioware were not aware that people would want closure and clarity then they were naive at best, and ignorant at worst. Personally I find this assertion very difficult to believe.

Modifié par FridgeRaider88, 13 avril 2012 - 08:33 .

[ShepardTheHopeful]

I think if Bioware made a press conference and calmly explained why the ending was meaningful to them and that it was a group consensus and not just Casey and Mac's actions alone. Then a lot of people wouldn't be so upset. We're gamers yes we rage sometimes but most of us are understanding people who just want to play a good game at the end of the day and not have to think about massive speculation of who's write, who's wrong, was Casey being egotistical etc.

I just wanted my oh so rare Sci-fi game to be the best experience for me possible for the most part that was achieved. But with all the speculation and all the lack of contact. And even just not knowing if the ending was fairly debated amongst the other writers.

I feel if we just knew these answers we could all settle down and admire Bioware for it's honesty rather than believe that EA is pulling some sort of puppet string.

We're not horrible people. We just wanted some explination to stop from drowning in a sea of speculation. I'm all for open ended finales. But you gotta understand there is a thing such as too open. It felt like the ending was a AP philosophy course and the only question was "Why?" Me personally I don't feel "Why not" was the best answer I could give. But that's just opinion thank youf or taking some time to talk to us. It's nice to know at least some of Bioware is willing to speak with us currently.

Also make jade empire 2 >>

[Snout]

If people in this thread are going to throw the 'falsely advertised' thing at BW, I'm going to just say it.

No it wasn't.

[Necrotron]

It's just really sad it's going this way.

Modifié par Bathaius, 13 avril 2012 - 11:39 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think this is muddy territory.  It really looks like you're suggesting that we shouldn't bother doing what we want to do, but should cater our games to the people that would give us money.  This retroactively assumes that the entire Mass Effect franchise was not something that BioWare wanted to make.  I think one of the worst things you can do is make game developers make a game that they don't want to make.

I see far too much passion, enthusiasm, hardwork, and commitment from my coworkers in Edmonton to assume that we aren't making what we want to make.  I've only been with the company since 2009, but I'd be skeptical that any of the BioWare games were in any way games that the BioWare studio didn't want to make.  I'd go as far as saying that BioWare was so good at making games that they wanted to make, that it reflected in their quality and helped build the fanbase I'm talking with right now.

You raise a good point Allan. However it is quite apparent to us that that situation broke down in (at least) the last 10 minutes. It felt all the world to us that Bioware stopped caring about producing a product they wanted to. Fourteen poorly worded lines of dialog from a brand new character and a complete breakdown in Shepard's character cemented the feeling that Bioware stopped caring.

And, if that is the case, we have grounds to demand they fix it if even from just a technical standpoint.

This lack of passion is one reason fans are willing to leave. Because it seems to us that Bioware has stopped caring about making quality products and is just going through the motions.

[TeffexPope]

katamuro wrote...


I hope the extended cut is good otherwise if they create another abomination...

Speaking of abominations, those were nowhere to be found in ME3.

[SimonTheFrog]

BioWare has not been honest with us.

And that is the cause for about 75% of all the anger here.

"We are listening (but ignoring you anyway)" doesn't help either.

[GuardianAngel470]

Snout wrote...

If people in this thread are going to throw the 'falsely advertised' thing at BW, I'm going to just say it.

No it wasn't.

To establish that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false.

Yeah, it was.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 13 avril 2012 - 09:02 .

[KingKhan03]

Snout wrote...

If people in this thread are going to throw the 'falsely advertised' thing at BW, I'm going to just say it.

No it wasn't.

lol it was and you know it. Stop it.

[Lavans6879]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

This lack of passion is one reason fans are willing to leave. Because it seems to us that Bioware has stopped caring about making quality products and is just going through the motions.

Thank you for making this point. The writers at BioWare are better than this. We know they are because they have proven it time and time again in the past. I'm not going to pretend that I know the exact reason why BioWare went back on their word about a dozen or more unique endings, or why the game's final boss was removed from the game ( in fact, I could argue to say that the ending was rewritten, evident from the removal of a final boss battle )...but I will say that the ending left me sorely disappointed, partly because I know that BioWare could have done a lot better had they simply put the slightest bit of effort into it.

Modifié par Lavans6879, 13 avril 2012 - 08:43 .

[Rabid Rooster]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Snout wrote...

If people in this thread are going to throw the 'falsely advertised' thing at BW, I'm going to just say it.

No it wasn't.

"To establish that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false."

Yeah, it was.

Yep it was, and the BBB even commented on this as being false advertisement.

[Dezerte]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think this is muddy territory.  It really looks like you're suggesting that we shouldn't bother doing what we want to do, but should cater our games to the people that would give us money.  This retroactively assumes that the entire Mass Effect franchise was not something that BioWare wanted to make.  I think one of the worst things you can do is make game developers make a game that they don't want to make.

I see far too much passion, enthusiasm, hardwork, and commitment from my coworkers in Edmonton to assume that we aren't making what we want to make.  I've only been with the company since 2009, but I'd be skeptical that any of the BioWare games were in any way games that the BioWare studio didn't want to make.  I'd go as far as saying that BioWare was so good at making games that they wanted to make, that it reflected in their quality and helped build the fanbase I'm talking with right now.

It's the "artistic integrity" excuse that really irks me. It makes you sound arrogant.

You are forgetting BioWare parterned up with EA in order to get more money. But don't get me wrong, I believe every developer out there only cares about making a good game first and foremost.

"We want to make games, and in order to do that we need money"

This is totally cool. The problem is when you invole EA who's motto is more like:

"We want to make money, and in order to do that we need to make games"

This is why I have deep respect for indie developers, they have total freedom. I also have deep respect for companies with publishers as well of course, like BioWare. But I also know that there's a publisher behind them, and it does affect the games.

[xsdob]

I don't care.

[Nightwriter]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think this is muddy territory.  It really looks like you're suggesting that we shouldn't bother doing what we want to do, but should cater our games to the people that would give us money.  This retroactively assumes that the entire Mass Effect franchise was not something that BioWare wanted to make.  I think one of the worst things you can do is make game developers make a game that they don't want to make.

The idea that they actually WANTED to make those endings the way they did horrifies me.

HORRIFIES ME.

I'm talking HORROR, Allan. I want you to really grasp the emotional intensity of that emotion. HORROR. Sheer, cold, mortal HORROR.

I am talking the kind of horror I only felt watching the episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer with those pale floating men in suits. With the steel teeth. The ones who stole your ability to scream and then cut your heart out without anesthetics.

[katamuro]

UnstableMongoose wrote...

To the OP, for purposes of clarifying an inquiry that I have regarding his discourse:

IS YOUR CAPSLOCK KEY TAPED DOWN? OR DO YOU JUST THINK THAT TALKING LIKE THIS ON THE INTERNET MAKES YOU A BIGGER MAN?

none of those things, i just know that putting a title in capslock means it is easier to see between other threads. 

[Lavans6879]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I see far too much passion, enthusiasm, hardwork, and commitment from my coworkers in Edmonton to assume that we aren't making what we want to make.  I've only been with the company since 2009, but I'd be skeptical that any of the BioWare games were in any way games that the BioWare studio didn't want to make.  I'd go as far as saying that BioWare was so good at making games that they wanted to make, that it reflected in their quality and helped build the fanbase I'm talking with right now.

We're not asking BioWare to bend to our every whim. We're just asking that they compromise with us. Saying that you "acknowledge our input", but give us more of the ending we hate is NOT a compromise. I dare say that a lot of us see it as an insult more than anything else.

Modifié par Lavans6879, 13 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[Snout]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Snout wrote...

If people in this thread are going to throw the 'falsely advertised' thing at BW, I'm going to just say it.

No it wasn't.

"To establish that an advertisement is false, a plaintiff must prove five things: (1) a false statement of fact has been made about the advertiser's own or another person's goods, services, or commercial activity; (2) the statement either deceives or has the potential to deceive a substantial portion of its targeted audience; (3) the deception is also likely to affect the purchasing decisions of its audience; (4) the advertising involves goods or services in interstate commerce; and (5) the deception has either resulted in or is likely to result in injury to the plaintiff. The most heavily weighed factor is the advertisement's potential to injure a customer. The injury is usually attributed to money the consumer lost through a purchase that would not have been made had the advertisement not been misleading. False statements can be defined in two ways: those that are false on their face and those that are implicitly false."

Yeah, it was.

Evidence?

[DnVill]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

So basically.... Bioware is ignoring its fans?

That's what your trying to say right?

[brusher225]

I'm almost positive I read, or heard someone say before the release date that some of us wouldn't like the ending. So I don't believe they we're completely oblivous to the idea. I think they just didn't think it would be so many.

[Snout]

KingKhan03 wrote...

Snout wrote...

If people in this thread are going to throw the 'falsely advertised' thing at BW, I'm going to just say it.

No it wasn't.

lol it was and you know it. Stop it.

Evidence?

And if you are going to use the BBB stuff, their opinion is subjective.

[Dezerte]

Snout wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...

Snout wrote...

If people in this thread are going to throw the 'falsely advertised' thing at BW, I'm going to just say it.

No it wasn't.

lol it was and you know it. Stop it.

Evidence?

And if you are going to use the BBB stuff, their opinion is subjective.

And your opinion isn't subjective?

(I don't really care if they did false advertising, just pointing out the irony)

[Craven1138]

What's angering people more and more is that they're beinge decieved over and over.

First they were used to certain themes in ME1 and ME2* - our choices did matter, there were big themes, not just robots vs humans.

Then we were given VERY SPECIFIC promises about ending of ME3. We all know how that turned out.

Then we were told our feedback matters, there you were listening. Dammnit there was even "ME3 Suggested Changes Feedback Thread". And then it all gets thrown into trash with "we're not changing ending, just adding clarification for idiots who don't understand how great our ending is".

I mean how can people not be more and more angry after every step?


* - and most of ME3