486 réponses à ce sujet

[txmn1016]

@Oakenshield

Agree to disagree then. I guess it's a matter of perspective, because I thought his response was pretty civil. And I still maintain that the real reason people flipped out at him (and consequently broke a number of BSN rules themselves) was because they fundamentally disagreed with his opinion.

[Delaney]

I've read almost the half of this thread and just want to post something that fits IMO here and is interesting for you all and also BW. It's a long video, I agree, but it's totally worth it. It has already been posted here somewhere, but probably got a bit lost:



Give it a try!

[The_Duke75]

All the things they advertized prior to release were misleading, at best. Then they state they're listening and after some time announce the EC. Which adds clarification but won't deal with the main issue most people have. Which is star child, it's flawed logic and the fact that our Shepard, who to that point kicked ass and took names turned into a muppet who picked a color because casper said so. Seriously? That's a good ending? That's art? It's neither. It's insulting to the fanbase, the franchise and, quite frankly, BW itself.

[ahandsomeshark]

um how was his comment in ANYWAY a direct response to OP?

this was Mike Gamble's quote: it wasn't in the game because we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."

this was OP's question: They didnt know there would be such a demand for it? Really? Come on if you have at least tried to listen to the fans even before the release of the game you would KNOW for 100%. 

and his second comment (after a few responses)

"Which makes me even more angry. And disappointed. Because if its true then they have stopped listening to the fans not just for the last couple of months but for at least a year or more. Part of me does not want to believe that, but the cynic in me does and at the moment cynic is winning."

OP didn't ask how much they listened or how they listened or what they did with the responses they got. he asked how they could

• claim they listen and then
• claim they didn't know. 

now I don't understand how but it's possible that the above is what happened (they listened and still managed to miss something huge) and that's what OP's question was asking, for clarification on how they could reconcile those two statements. That's NOT what Mr. Woo's response addressed.

Mr. Woo's statement: Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

which has virtually nothing to do with OP's question. Gamble claims they didn't know. OP asks how they could possibly not know. And Mr. Woo responds with something that doesn't address OP's question, how could they not know, and contradicts Gamble's original statement that they didn't know by claiming the disconnect wasn't from not listening but from listening and disagreeing, which is the opposite of what Gamble said and not what OP asked.

More that coming from a mod and based on the nature of BSN right now, it was a post that would be obviously inflammatory. Which it was as you can see from the results there are about 16 pages of arguing with Mr. Woo's comment and virtually none addressing the original question. 

In fact (though I don't believe this was intentional) it's actually a perfect derailment tactic to avoid the bigger issue of how they could become so disconnected as to not know if they did listen to feedback by turning it into an opinions and subjectivity pissing match.

Modifié par ahandsomeshark, 13 avril 2012 - 04:00 .

[Ianamus]

ArchDuck wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

lol.  Funny, and parlty accurate.  Essentially:

Bioware:  "The presence of the rachni has huge consequences in ME3, even just in the final battle with the Reapers.

Us:  "Bioware, please give us the "huge consequences" in ME3 of having rachni, especially in the final battle with the Reapers because the rachni don't even appear..."

Bioware:  "You can't make us give you huge consequences in ME3 because of the rachni, not even in the final battle with the Reapers."

Can you at least wait for the EC before you start crying about what you didn't get? At least then you'll know if the Rachni are in it or not.

No offence but they aren't "crying" (very dismissive language there) and also they didn't say anything that isn't true. Bioware has said on more then one occasion that they don't have to do anything they don't want to (which is true but not reassuring when you are asking for things specifically promised and advertised).

Now whether Bioware addresses this broken promise is what waiting for the DLC is about.

Considering they said that those things would be in the game they sort of do have to include them. They can say they don't have to include anything they don't want to as much as they like but if they told us that those things would be in the game then it is false advertising not to include them, which is illegal.

I know that these are only small statements, but many of them verge on outright lies. Sure a few statements about the Rachni aren't worthy of suing the company, but it's treading on thin ice, and It can't continue. If they keep it up, or cannot include a larger feature that they promised in the future then they could find themselves in a lot of trouble, and no amount of "We don't have to include what we don't want" "Artistic integrity" or similar statements will wriggle them out of the subsequent legal issues. 

Also "We did not expect a demand for that" is just ridiculous. You told us that our choices would matter in the ending. How can you not expect people to want what you said would be in the game? It's a joke. 

Modifié par EJ107, 13 avril 2012 - 04:02 .

[rizuno]

OP that's how I feel. I just can not comprehend the WEB OF LIES.

[Kalms]

I think it's great that Stanley Woo made it clear how BioWare disagrees with us. If we don't agree with BioWare's decisions, then we at least can make an informed decision on what not to buy, when the next BioWare game comes along.

Money best spent elsewhere I suppose. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[txmn1016]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

um how was his comment in ANYWAY a direct response to OP?
this was Mike Gamble's quote: it wasn't in the game because we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."
this was OP's question: They didnt know there would be such a demand for it? Really? Come on if you have at least tried to listen to the fans even before the release of the game you would KNOW for 100%. 
and his second comment (after a few responses)
Which makes me even more angry. And disappointed. Because if its true then they have stopped listening to the fans not just for the last couple of months but for at least a year or more. Part of me does not want to believe that, but the cynic in me does and at the moment cynic is winning. 
OP didn't ask how much they listened or how they listened or what they did with the responses they got. he asked how they could
1. claim they listen and then
2. claim they didn't know. 

now I don't understand how but it's possible that the above is what happened (they listened and still managed to miss something huge) and that's what OP's question was asking. That's NOT what Mr. Woo's response addressed.

Mr. Woo's statement: Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

which has virtually nothing to do with OP's question. Gamble claims they didn't know. OP asks how they could possibly not know. And Mr. Woo responds with something that doesn't address OP's question, how could they not know, and contradicts Gamble's original statement that they didn't know by claiming the disconnect wasn't from not listening but from listening and disagreeing, which is the opposite of what Gamble said and not what OP asked.

More that coming from a mod and based on the nature of BSN right now, it was a post that would be obviously inflammatory. Which it was as you can see from the results there are about 16 pages of arguing with Mr. Woo's comment and virtually none addressing the original question. 

In fact (though I don't believe this was intentional) it's actually a perfect derailment tactic to avoid the bigger issue of how they could become so disconnected as to not know if they did listen to feedback by turning it into an opinions and subjectivity pissing match.

The OP implied that if BW didn't see that we wanted those things then they couldn't have been really listening. 

SW commented that they can still be listening, even if they disagree and ultimately don't address certain concerns. 

That seems pretty on topic to me.

People seemed to take that as "BW is listening but doesn't give a frak about what you think." Thus the 10 pages of Stanely Woo flaming.

[txmn1016]

Kalms wrote...

I think it's great that Stanley Woo made it clear how BioWare disagrees with us. If we don't agree with BioWare's decisions, then we at least can make an informed decision on what not to buy, when the next BioWare game comes along.

Money best spent elsewhere I suppose. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts on the subject. Live and learn!

[Kushan101]

Oakenshield1 wrote...


He would have to drop the ban hammer on himself then too. And everyone on this thread who's responded to him, telling him he's being rude.

I agree with you, it was pretty condescending and seemed to have been made to provoke a reaction. Maybe it was just how I read it, but Mr. Woo's statements do seem a bit, well, hateful at times.

[ArchDuck]

Another good point ahandsomeshark. Reading through your post highlights how Mr. Woo's response is about something off topic he wanted to address not something that was intially stated.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 13 avril 2012 - 04:04 .

[ahandsomeshark]

txmn1016 wrote...

ahandsomeshark wrote...

um how was his comment in ANYWAY a direct response to OP?
this was Mike Gamble's quote: it wasn't in the game because we didn't know there was such a huge demand for it, to be honest with you."
this was OP's question: They didnt know there would be such a demand for it? Really? Come on if you have at least tried to listen to the fans even before the release of the game you would KNOW for 100%. 
and his second comment (after a few responses)
Which makes me even more angry. And disappointed. Because if its true then they have stopped listening to the fans not just for the last couple of months but for at least a year or more. Part of me does not want to believe that, but the cynic in me does and at the moment cynic is winning. 
OP didn't ask how much they listened or how they listened or what they did with the responses they got. he asked how they could
1. claim they listen and then
2. claim they didn't know. 

now I don't understand how but it's possible that the above is what happened (they listened and still managed to miss something huge) and that's what OP's question was asking. That's NOT what Mr. Woo's response addressed.

Mr. Woo's statement: Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

which has virtually nothing to do with OP's question. Gamble claims they didn't know. OP asks how they could possibly not know. And Mr. Woo responds with something that doesn't address OP's question, how could they not know, and contradicts Gamble's original statement that they didn't know by claiming the disconnect wasn't from not listening but from listening and disagreeing, which is the opposite of what Gamble said and not what OP asked.

More that coming from a mod and based on the nature of BSN right now, it was a post that would be obviously inflammatory. Which it was as you can see from the results there are about 16 pages of arguing with Mr. Woo's comment and virtually none addressing the original question. 

In fact (though I don't believe this was intentional) it's actually a perfect derailment tactic to avoid the bigger issue of how they could become so disconnected as to not know if they did listen to feedback by turning it into an opinions and subjectivity pissing match.

The OP implied that if BW didn't see that we wanted those things then they couldn't have been really listening. 

SW commented that they can still be listening, even if they disagree and ultimately don't address certain concerns. 

That seems pretty on topic to me.

People seemed to take that as "BW is listening but doesn't give a frak about what you think." Thus the 10 pages of Stanely Woo flaming.

OP asked how they could say they listen and then use NOT KNOWING as their excuse. That's the key, that Gamble said they DIDN'T KNOW, not that they disagreed, not that they thought their idea was better, THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW. OP asked how they could listen and still not know. 

SW comment in no way addressed that question, he instead commented seperate issue. Which was knowing and disagreeing. Not what OP asked or what Gamble said.

[Daniel_N7]

Does BioWare actually disagrees with "us" regarding the ending of ME3? Because, seriously, BioWare has failed to provide a solid, rational argumentation in defense of the ending as it is. The fanbase, however, has produced extensive "evidence" in articles, essays, blogs, videos, that build a pretty strong argument against its logic, coherence or even emotional resolution, when taken in balance with the rest of the trilogy.

So I don't think that BioWare - the top brains in charge of writing ME3 - actually disagrees with the fanbase. They just can't say it, probably due to PR restrictions imposed by EA.

It doesn't help that the whole PR strategy has been such an example of inability, and everything that's been said, from Casey Hudson's first statement, to Dr. Ray Muzyka's blog-release, to BioWare's staff erroneous tweets, and to the whole misdirected humor of the PAX event, as caused a negative reaction, every single time.

What is curious, to me, is why hasn't BioWare changed it's communication strategy yet? Start addressing the issues, speak your mind, and acknowledge the errors if there have been some along the way.

Because, seriously, maybe the fanbase has gone through an initial stage of rage, and we are still venting our anger, we're still very much disturbed, but also, WE ARE STILL HERE.
And after the emotional impact of this crysis, I think the majority of us is eager to make peace with it, to accept whatever happened, and as long as BioWare commits to a solution that lives to your (BW's) own standards, we'll all be happy and praising you for that in the end.

[Kanon777]

I love how far people who really want to feel offended or insulted go to paint themselvs as "victims" of Stanley's comments. This thread is BSN in a nutshell;.

[chmarr]

not to stir the pot or anything but i do have one comment to make.

it is said on a regular basis that bioware listens to its fans more so the "core" fans.
well us "core" fans have been asking for ONE extra ending to ME3 but instead we are being given something that is extending something that a HUGE majority agree is horrible and nonsensicle,

the "artistic integrity" statment has been debunked by many game reviewers even by actual artists.

so instead of compromising with us and actually talking to us about what we want instead of taking it apon yourself to keep the "artistic integrity" of your ideas it is making bioware itself look like it does not care.

also the tweets from various members of bioware are making us more and more upset as the pro-ending people are all getting what THEY want and the rest of us are actualy being ignore.

the ones being ignored are the majority of core fans who have voiced that they dislike the endings A LOT, when we sent you cupcakes you took it apon yourself to pick a FORTH choice, its THAT choice we all want but instead were getting hit by a "clarification" DLC which is against EVERYTHING we requested.

if bioware had taken time to actually talk to us we wouldent be in this state we are currently in.

tweets from staff are now showing that core parts of the mass effec universe are being rewritten such as the following

1)- exploding mass relays now no longer destroy solar systems EVEN THOUGH it is proven in the arrival DLC of ME2 and the codex say an exploding relay DOES destroy a solar system killing ALL LIFE

2)- suddenly turians and quarians can now EAT HUMAN FOOD even tho the codex in ALL THREE GAMES say they cant.

3)- mass relays are now disabled in EVERY ENDING even tho we watch the cinimatic from EVERY VARIATION of the ending all show the relays breaking up and exploding.

there are more but it would take to long to list but these are just 3 of MANY MANY things that we are being told by biowares own staff in there tweets then yesterday 2 of the staff (i will not say who but everyone knows who they are) are actually play testing the finished "extended DLC" those tweets were then deleted so it seems it was made pretty fast, so fast we are now thinking this was all planned from the start.

by NOT talking to us it is making us very angry and more upset,
so why not take the sticks out of your backsides and actually talk to us, fill us in with LEGIT REAL details on whats happening, hell give us some LEGIT REAL TEASERS instead of feeding us rubbish and misinformation.

if you hadent noticed forbes even NASDAQ are now actually commenting on the lack of customer interaction by bioware over the debacle of the ending situation, so instead of blogging a robotic PR reply why not actually tell us something posative and VALID.

[Mnementh2230]

"Derp, we had no idea fans wanted what we told them they were going to get..."

[rizuno]

@kanon777. how do u figure that o.0

[MaximizedAction]

chmarr wrote...

not to stir the pot or anything but i do have one comment to make.

it is said on a regular basis that bioware listens to its fans more so the "core" fans.
well us "core" fans have been asking for ONE extra ending to ME3 but instead we are being given something that is extending something that a HUGE majority agree is horrible and nonsensicle,

the "artistic integrity" statment has been debunked by many game reviewers even by actual artists.

so instead of compromising with us and actually talking to us about what we want instead of taking it apon yourself to keep the "artistic integrity" of your ideas it is making bioware itself look like it does not care.

also the tweets from various members of bioware are making us more and more upset as the pro-ending people are all getting what THEY want and the rest of us are actualy being ignore.

the ones being ignored are the majority of core fans who have voiced that they dislike the endings A LOT, when we sent you cupcakes you took it apon yourself to pick a FORTH choice, its THAT choice we all want but instead were getting hit by a "clarification" DLC which is against EVERYTHING we requested.

if bioware had taken time to actually talk to us we wouldent be in this state we are currently in.

tweets from staff are now showing that core parts of the mass effec universe are being rewritten such as the following

1)- exploding mass relays now no longer destroy solar systems EVEN THOUGH it is proven in the arrival DLC of ME2 and the codex say an exploding relay DOES destroy a solar system killing ALL LIFE

2)- suddenly turians and quarians can now EAT HUMAN FOOD even tho the codex in ALL THREE GAMES say they cant.

3)- mass relays are now disabled in EVERY ENDING even tho we watch the cinimatic from EVERY VARIATION of the ending all show the relays breaking up and exploding.

there are more but it would take to long to list but these are just 3 of MANY MANY things that we are being told by biowares own staff in there tweets then yesterday 2 of the staff (i will not say who but everyone knows who they are) are actually play testing the finished "extended DLC" those tweets were then deleted so it seems it was made pretty fast, so fast we are now thinking this was all planned from the start.

by NOT talking to us it is making us very angry and more upset,
so why not take the sticks out of your backsides and actually talk to us, fill us in with LEGIT REAL details on whats happening, hell give us some LEGIT REAL TEASERS instead of feeding us rubbish and misinformation.

if you hadent noticed forbes even NASDAQ are now actually commenting on the lack of customer interaction by bioware over the debacle of the ending situation, so instead of blogging a robotic PR reply why not actually tell us something posative and VALID.

Nice summing up!

Concering the tweets you mentioned:
I must've missed them. The only recent tweets I remember reading were adressing DLC in general, and some content that would make fans really happy, but not specific mentioning of the EC.
So if you managed to read them before they got deleted, did they explicitly state that it was a finished version?

[rizuno]

"Herp, now we can't figure out why they're so upset about it..."

[BadlyBrowned]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Mr. Woo's statement: Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

which has virtually nothing to do with OP's question. Gamble claims they didn't know. OP asks how they could possibly not know. And Mr. Woo responds with something that doesn't address OP's question, how could they not know, and contradicts Gamble's original statement that they didn't know by claiming the disconnect wasn't from not listening but from listening and disagreeing, which is the opposite of what Gamble said and not what OP asked.

More that coming from a mod and based on the nature of BSN right now, it was a post that would be obviously inflammatory. Which it was as you can see from the results there are about 16 pages of arguing with Mr. Woo's comment and virtually none addressing the original question. 

In fact (though I don't believe this was intentional) it's actually a perfect derailment tactic to avoid the bigger issue of how they could become so disconnected as to not know if they did listen to feedback by turning it into an opinions and subjectivity pissing match.

Mods be trolling and hijacking. 

Modifié par BadlyBrowned, 13 avril 2012 - 04:23 .

[Kanon777]

chmarr wrote...

not to stir the pot or anything but i do have one comment to make.

it is said on a regular basis that bioware listens to its fans more so the "core" fans.
well us "core" fans have been asking for ONE extra ending to ME3 but instead we are being given something that is extending something that a HUGE majority agree is horrible and nonsensicle,

the "artistic integrity" statment has been debunked by many game reviewers even by actual artists.

so instead of compromising with us and actually talking to us about what we want instead of taking it apon yourself to keep the "artistic integrity" of your ideas it is making bioware itself look like it does not care.

also the tweets from various members of bioware are making us more and more upset as the pro-ending people are all getting what THEY want and the rest of us are actualy being ignore.

the ones being ignored are the majority of core fans who have voiced that they dislike the endings A LOT, when we sent you cupcakes you took it apon yourself to pick a FORTH choice, its THAT choice we all want but instead were getting hit by a "clarification" DLC which is against EVERYTHING we requested.

if bioware had taken time to actually talk to us we wouldent be in this state we are currently in.

tweets from staff are now showing that core parts of the mass effec universe are being rewritten such as the following

1)- exploding mass relays now no longer destroy solar systems EVEN THOUGH it is proven in the arrival DLC of ME2 and the codex say an exploding relay DOES destroy a solar system killing ALL LIFE

2)- suddenly turians and quarians can now EAT HUMAN FOOD even tho the codex in ALL THREE GAMES say they cant.

3)- mass relays are now disabled in EVERY ENDING even tho we watch the cinimatic from EVERY VARIATION of the ending all show the relays breaking up and exploding.

there are more but it would take to long to list but these are just 3 of MANY MANY things that we are being told by biowares own staff in there tweets then yesterday 2 of the staff (i will not say who but everyone knows who they are) are actually play testing the finished "extended DLC" those tweets were then deleted so it seems it was made pretty fast, so fast we are now thinking this was all planned from the start.

by NOT talking to us it is making us very angry and more upset,
so why not take the sticks out of your backsides and actually talk to us, fill us in with LEGIT REAL details on whats happening, hell give us some LEGIT REAL TEASERS instead of feeding us rubbish and misinformation.

1) If you pay attention to the explosion, you can see the internal enrgy of the relay jumped before the destruction. That was completely diferent from Arrival where the asteroid released the energy of the relay and cause the explosion, there is no retcon needed for that. 

2)  Can you quote were a dev said quarians/turians can eat the same food as the rest?

3) MR are disabled in the control ending, in red and green they are destroyed. That was clear from the endings we have already, and was confirmed in a recent tweet from a dev. Can you quote where a dev said Red and Green just disabled the relyas?

Who are the devs that are playing the EC already? Can you quote a site where their posts where saved? (maybe reddit has them?)

Modifié par Kanon777, 13 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[-Area51-Silent]

I guess this is my problem with what we got. Customers are telling you what they want to see, and I know its an difficult task to really find a single solution that works for everyone.

However, this is still a business to customer relationship, and a business depends on a customer for survival. The old saying "the customer is always right" should potentially hold true, while not specifically doing what people ask, but creating a general solution that works with the general feel of what is being requested.

To stand behind it as art is fine, however art is typically made for the purpose of the artist, allowing the observer to see what the artists emotions and vision is. It typically is not made with the purpose of commerical mass production and sales. If the company wants to be an artistic company, then Bioware should move away from commercial mass marketing where the determination of success is based on sales numbers and customer satisfaction, and to the art medium where sales are meaningless and critical review by experts is treasured.

[Kulthar Drax]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

Mr Woo, I've never addressed you before, and let me first start off by saying that I love Bioware and its many games that it has released (well, except Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3's ending), but Bioware's response to this whole situation has been a travesty. We are paying you for this, need I remind you. As in, our cold hard cash. If you don't want it, that is fine, but don't expect us to fork over cash for products in the future. A good business listens to its customers, whether you agree with them or not. Your goal is to market goods that people want, not what you want.

Yes, it is possible to disagree with us, while still listening. I never doubted that. However, and I really don't want this to come across as an insult but there really is no other way to put this, but only a inbred halfwitted monkey boy could possibly fail to see the glaring plotholes and poor storytelling that is inherent in the end (and in the Crucible itself largely, which doesn't help matters). I'm sorry Mr Woo, but it IS the case, and no amount of artistic integrity shielding will prevent hull breaches occuring from the multiple hits of Dreadnaught sized plothole lasers punching through it. And this is what we would ideally like fixed. You're welcome to disagree with us on this and our feedback regarding it but honestly...only an idiot would ignore it? Yes, criticism hurts. I know this. Yes, being told that you screwed up big time can be painful. But that doesn't negate the fact that it happened.

And finally Mr Woo/Bioware, what happened to you? What happened to the three young doctors who put up a $100,000 of their own money in 1995 to create Bioware? That's passion for games right there, as gamers, passion you seem to have lost. I guess EA stole that and sold it along with everything else they loot.

Modifié par Kulthar Drax, 13 avril 2012 - 04:33 .

[Bronze65]

Drama queens.

[viperabyss]

I really think Stanley Woo is missing the point. The point is that the lack of explanation on Bioware's part is really baffling. Every time someone asks them a question about why the ending is the way it is, they just hide behind the "artistic integrity" excuse. Couple that with some condescending remarks from the community managers (*cough cough*Twitter*cough cough*), of course the fans would feel like Bioware is not listening, and doesn't care.

To be honest, if Casey Hudson or Mac Walters stepped up, and answered this simple question, "Why was the ending the way it is?", and explained their reasoning behind the ending, none of these would have happened.