486 réponses à ce sujet

[Mev186]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

Disagreement is one thing. You might disagree with my opinion that chocolate pudding is one of the greatest inventions of all time.

It's another thing to completly ignore logic, narative structure and internal consistancy within the universe you guys create.

Modifié par Mev186, 13 avril 2012 - 12:35 .

[MakeMineMako]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

The first part, maybe. However......

When you disagree with feedback, then it becomes irrelevant to the issue on your end. A moot point. Something that is not on the table as being under serious consideration.

That's my take on it.

But, whatever. It's ya'lls game, bubba. I just hope you guys make the right plays.

[LegendaryBlade]

Subguy614 wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

People talked about this exact ending two years ago, and just how bad it would be.

Good job.

link please.

He's probably referencing Deus Ex: Human Revolution's ending which is extremely similar. You get to the last room, and you're given three options, with a possible fourth option. You choose one, then you get a cutscene and the credits roll.

[Stanley Woo]

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

[Bronze65]

Oh look, more of the same repetitive, waste of time posts on the forums

[ahandsomeshark]

I'm still confused as to what agreeing/disagreeing with feedback has to do with the original quote which said they didn't know? Seems like needless derailment.

[GimmeDaGun]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

People that don't have jobs wont be able to understand you here. If you have a job you'll know this is possible and makes sense.

I have a job and I do understand my friend... but it hurts that I spent hard earned cash (by working long hours in the hospital, sometimes at night) on something (the CE in this instance) that turns out to be something completely different compared to the thing which was promised by the ones who sold it to me! Is it just me or was I manipulated and lied to (so to speak)?

So yeah, it would be nice if they took our concerns seriously even if they do not completely do as many of us want them to do! And I hope that they will manage to fix the ending in a way that is acceptable to most of the disappointed fans, so they can earn our trust again. Then maybe I will consider buying from them again in the future.

[Subguy614]

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Subguy614 wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

People talked about this exact ending two years ago, and just how bad it would be.

Good job.

link please.

He's probably referencing Deus Ex: Human Revolution's ending which is extremely similar. You get to the last room, and you're given three options, with a possible fourth option. You choose one, then you get a cutscene and the credits roll.

hmmm, I saw something in another thread saying this was discussed in ME2 forums and was still there.

May not have been same poster but it was a Quarian.

Anyone know what thread is being referenced??

[sdfgdsfsdfsfs]

Stanley Woo wrote...

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

You're right, it tells me that BioWare doesn't know what they're doing. Good job.

Modifié par sdfgdsfsdfsfs, 13 avril 2012 - 12:43 .

[ahandsomeshark]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

It has no effect on bioware creating clarification DLC but it does have an effect on whether customers trust bioware enough to 1. give the dlc a chance to mend the fences 2. make any future purchases. If all of bioware, or at least all of the people making decisions, fundamentally disagrees with the issues raised with the ending then there's no real reason for (former) fans, who raise these issues, to think the clarification DLC or any future Bioware project will be devoid of those same issues.

Also what does this even have to do with the original quote where agreement/disagreement isn't even mentioned, instead the issue is claimed to be not knowing. (which is still worrisome but for entirely different reasons)

[Esquin]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

I'll point out that the status of the ending as 'bad' is no longer an opinion. It's a fact proven with objective comments and statements. Thematic inconsistencies, lore errors, issues with the science not working in the mass effect universe, teleporting squad mates, joker turning coward, shep agreeing to do what the reapers tell him. These are factual reasons why the ending fails.

[Isu]

Stanley Woo wrote...

The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

Well, perhaps its high time some superiors started thinking about customer's feelings. Otherwise... well, it is imaginable that dissatsfied customers are not excatly what everyone wants.

Besides, pardon my bluntness, but beeing a part of larger company, or working for someone, is not an excuse to commit crimes (exaggerating of course), or simply to decieve people.

[crappyjazzy]

IanPolaris wrote...

crappyjazzy wrote...

PRC_Heavy_Z wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

So If person A asks person B to perform a task, and person B not only refuses, but also practically fail to acknowledge person A's request... That's listening according to the aforementioned logic?

Actually yes.  Have you ever been in management?  You have to do that all the time.  You have to make decisions and policies that affect all employees and if you're a good manager, you will ask for employee input and feedback.  It doesn't mean that you can make your decision incorporate all of it though.

Sure but a good manager is also responsive.  A good manager will take the extra time (and it doesn't take much) to let you know that your input was heard and your wishes were accounted for...not just for you individually but by extended series of actions for the entire group.  That doesn't mean giving everyone what they want and indeed often (usually) doesn't, but it ALSO doesn't mean going into PR Turtle-mode (as IMHO Bioware has done) when things get dicey.  A good manager is a GOOD communicator and right now Bioware has shown anything but good communication IMHO.

-Polaris

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I think they've been extremely responsive.  Also, my example was to point out that sometimes you can listen but might be able to do what you're being asked. 

My example is not meant to describe Bioware as a manager and players of their games as employees.

[Gormane01]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

I must admit I just can't believe Bioware couldn't see there would be a demand for clatification and that people would have problems with the ending. It was, in my opinion, more obvious than the fact that the sun is hot that this ending would be received negatively from a significant number of people.

[ahandsomeshark]

Subguy614 wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Subguy614 wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

People talked about this exact ending two years ago, and just how bad it would be.

Good job.

link please.

He's probably referencing Deus Ex: Human Revolution's ending which is extremely similar. You get to the last room, and you're given three options, with a possible fourth option. You choose one, then you get a cutscene and the credits roll.

hmmm, I saw something in another thread saying this was discussed in ME2 forums and was still there.

May not have been same poster but it was a Quarian.

Anyone know what thread is being referenced??

there was actually a thread where from 1-2 years ago that was reposted a while back that said the worst possible endings would be some kind of "god-like character" introduced in the last minutes and/or the only solution leading to the destruction of major galatic technology sending them into a dark age. I don't think I still have a link to the post but I swear I saw it. It's possible the ME2 boards are inactive enough that it's still findable.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

BSN, or anyone who cobbled this together, one question for you....................Do you actually expect myself, or anyone else to buy your DLC's, with this as your pallet/easel/canvas?

If you answer yes, you'd better find another job.

[Subguy614]

[/quote]


But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

[/quote]

What answers ARE you willing to provide?

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

I'm only asking for information to counteract the hypocracy.

You state we're listening but you didn't know we were displeased with the ending and didn't know we would be. That's hypocritical. 

You state the ending will not change and you want to keep artistic integrity but you give no information about the whole teams involvement, as well as the fact that you're technically changing the ending by adding more to it and "clarifying it" that's a hypocricy. 

You created a character who was die hard and refused to bow down to anyone. Yet he folds rather quickly to a child AI. That's a hypocricy. 

You claim you care about answering questions so that we may not use comments against you or fight you. Yet we are given nothing but vague tweets and comments making us thing those very things. That's hypocricy. 

.....tons of fans feel that we'd be happier if you'd just talk to us like human beings instead of leaving us to theorize and troll on a forum. If you could talk to one decent normal human being for a quick interview tell us some thoughts of the staff be honest with us instead of leaving us to speculate that EA rushed you, or Hudson and Mac were being egotistical and ignoring the staff. We'd like explinations to the hypocritical situations we keep hearing from your company and your pr departments. And the entire thing at PAX was even more vague and confusing let alone a little insulting to the point that some would believe it's not even a real audience in there but rather plants to act like a 90s sitcom reel. 

We want to stop speculating, we want to believe you, and we want to have some faith to go on. But you keep stretching us so thin how can we possibly believe or respect you after all this. Especially if the extended ending turns out to be..yet another hypocricy? 

Are we so unworthy of some answers to these questions? 

[Gemini1179]

Stanley Woo wrote...
And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

Again with the not really saying anything. You're better off simply not saying anything. You can say we don't technically have a legitimate point and point fingers at "75 Perfect Scores" all you want. It still doesn't change the product you released. We can argue till the cows come home the 'technicality' of whether or not the community's reaction to the ending ACTUALLY means it's bad or not.

It is bad. It is my opinion, and it is subjective. Just like you can't tell me it is good and have anything other than subjective reasoning.

We need to really move past this and get something done. Are you truly waiting to see if your bottom line takes a hit before you swallow some pride? Interesting business practice, I must say.

[thefallen2far]

Wow.... creators really get quoted a lot.

It's true, that you can disagree and take feedback into account, but which side will it fall? Doing what you don't want to do by doing what feedback dictates or do what you want despite feedback? It can't be both.

[SerraAdvocate]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

There are indeed some people on the internet, and on any internet forum, who will take any and every answer given and use them in this manner. But BioWare has a large number of long-time fans who have been faithful consumers of every one of your products - I personally have bought most BioWare games twice at least, I own four or five copies of BG2, two of each Icewind Dale, four copies of NWN, two copies of ME1, two copies of ME2 - and we're (or I'm, anyway) fans because we enjoy two traits of BioWare games. The characters, and the stories. 

Our issues aren't necessarily ones that we want changed. But without understanding, that's all we can want. You're wrong in saying that it won't change our opinions. I can't form an opinion on the endings as they currently stand, because I don't have any measure by which I can evaluate them. It might be that all I need is further clarity. It might be that clarity just isn't good enough to satisfy my deep disappointment with the ending of the game that came in the box. But I don't know, because nobody is talking.

The total lack of communication we've received, on the endings, on the war assets problem, has made me unhappy with BioWare. Before, I was just unhappy with the game. I've been unhappy with BioWare games before (HotU completely changing Aribeth's story and runing my PC's change of reuniting with her, anyone?). I've never been unhappy with BioWare before.

Modifié par Helm505, 13 avril 2012 - 12:49 .

[crimzontearz]

uh.....no Stanley

there are some facets of thus issue that are NOT subjective. you guts are just choosing not to address/respond to them

[Subguy614]

Thanks Ahandsomeshark!

[klungilungi]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

It is not about opinion or preference. The ending introduces major canon breaking plot holes, (canon that you established, the fact that bioware doesn't seem to know their own game is quite troubling). These issues needs to be adressed, and no matter what your preference is 2+2=4, yet you managed to tell us that 2+2=5, and when we complain and say that it doesn't make any sense, you tell us it is just a matter of opinion. -.- 

Modifié par klungilungi, 13 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[crappyjazzy]

ohupthis wrote...

BSN, or anyone who cobbled this together, one question for you....................Do you actually expect myself, or anyone else to buy your DLC's, with this as your pallet/easel/canvas?

If you answer yes, you'd better find another job.

I'll be buying any playable DLC they put out (I don't care about clothing/weapon packs).  My friends who play are disappointed that planned DLC has been put off to provide the Extended Cut, but we can wait.