486 réponses à ce sujet

[Tritium315]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

That is an impressive amount of bull**** I just read. By any chance are you the inspiration for starchild?

[cutegigi]

thread getting ridiculous.
im out from this "discussion"

[incinerator950]

ahandsomeshark wrote...

Subguy614 wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Subguy614 wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

People talked about this exact ending two years ago, and just how bad it would be.

Good job.

link please.

He's probably referencing Deus Ex: Human Revolution's ending which is extremely similar. You get to the last room, and you're given three options, with a possible fourth option. You choose one, then you get a cutscene and the credits roll.

hmmm, I saw something in another thread saying this was discussed in ME2 forums and was still there.

May not have been same poster but it was a Quarian.

Anyone know what thread is being referenced??

there was actually a thread where from 1-2 years ago that was reposted a while back that said the worst possible endings would be some kind of "god-like character" introduced in the last minutes and/or the only solution leading to the destruction of major galatic technology sending them into a dark age. I don't think I still have a link to the post but I swear I saw it. It's possible the ME2 boards are inactive enough that it's still findable.

No you're right, and it's been brought up more times than I can recall.  Suffice to say, the person was pretty damn close to the target on the guess, but it was their opinion on it.  I can think of worse endings.

[Sesshaku]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...
It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

Mr Woo, I am curious about this statement. Could you illustrate it with some real-life example, how you do this?
Thanks in advance.

Feedback: This isn't Art. And the game didn't have the features you promised on publicity.
Bioware: I disagree. But thank you for your feedback. 
Customer:  

Velocithon wrote...
Bioware: "Hey we're gonna put this, this, this, this, and even THIS into the game IT'LL BE GREAT!!!"
Fans: " OMG this is going to be so cool they're doing everything we want!!!"
*game is released*
Fans: "...dafuq nothing you said was in here..."
Bioware: "We didn't know there was such a demand for it"
Fans:

Quoted for true.

This Stanley Woo sounds more like a troll than a professional. Kind of remind me of Friends, when the newspapers say all kind of ugly thing about the show Joey was starring, and the director, instead of taking the feedback, he started yelling that all the actors had the fault and that they ruined his art.

Modifié par Sesshaku, 13 avril 2012 - 12:55 .

[Legendaryred]

Wow guys, i wouldn't even try it anymore. BW clearly believes that what they did is was the right thing to do and nothing we say will change that. It doesn't matter if they were clearly wrong or clearly right, they won't bulge. It takes a lot of integrity to stand up and say "hey I made a mistake" or "i was wrong". I'm just concerned that many companies are just right out lying during the pre-release time of a video game. I mean yea, those 16 endings were totally different, and we didn't get ending A B or C and also the rachni was a huge difference even on the final cinematics.

[Gemini1179]

crappyjazzy wrote...

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I think they've been extremely responsive.  Also, my example was to point out that sometimes you can listen but might be able to do what you're being asked. 

My example is not meant to describe Bioware as a manager and players of their games as employees.

I understand your position, but I take you to task on BioWare being responsive. In my opinion, they've been anything but responsive.

The problem with your argument, and to an extent Mr. Woo's posts, is that he can offer no transparency into the design and thought process of the company. That, for us, is what is frustrating. Saying you're listening but we can't know how you're operating with said info is kind of, well, frustrating.

[GimmeDaGun]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

Most of us understand this, but please take this Extended Cut thing seriously, because it's more than just some disagreement about the ending of a game (a matter of taste if you like), but a trust issue between a fan (costumer who spent and spends money on your products) and you, the company who sells them and advertise them. We really like you guys and love ME, but you have to understand our point in order to put an acceptable and happy "end" to this whole ending controversy. Please make it right this time!

[taliefer]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

translation: we dont believe rational discussion is possible (and they may be right, passion levels are high right now) so we arent going to try.

i just would like to know if the dlc is in any way going to make godkid showing up out of the blue at least reasonably plausible. they are providing the dlc for free (which is cool) but i dont want to waste my time waiting for it if the core issues i have arent going to be addressed. if they arent, fine, we just agree to disagree and i go on my merry way and forget mass effect ever existed, since the issue is that big of a deal to me

[GeoFukari]

Thread Lock in 5.... 4... 3...

But seriously, Bioware has a larger WTF Level than Japan right now.

[ShepGep]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

People that don't have jobs wont be able to understand you here. If you have a job you'll know this is possible and makes sense.

People that go by that logic most likely don't have jobs or are quickly and soon to be out of one, especially if it's a public service job.

[sfam]

Stanley Woo wrote...

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

Actually I think you'll find most gamers here would far prefer an actual dialogue over the option of getting more "ammunition".  'Cause honestly, we fans really have no ammunition whether you agree or disagree with us.  We aren't in charge in any sense at all.  But what we also don't have is understanding for why things ended as they did - this we would really like a dialogue about, but thus far, we've received none. 

I totally get the defensiveness of Bioware over this though.  You guys have really had lots of nastiness and anger thrown your way.  And considering the rest of the game was pretty damn good, its clear to most here that the vast majority at Bioware poured their soul into this.  

But this still doesn't address the ending fiasco.  And it really was a fiasco in the vast majority of gamer opinions. It would be great if there was a way to have a dialogue about this, even if its a controlled dialogue with a select set of fans who you all feel are representative but not too over the top in their comments.  Or whatever.  But simply no response is going to get you what you've already got - angry fans who simmer more and more by the day.

[Spectre Impersonator]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

Not trying to be rude but I can never understand any points you try to make. Either something's lost in translation or Bioware's getting harder to defend...

[Subguy614]

Found post from 2 yrs ago...somewhat precient..

screwoffreg wrote...

Darnalak wrote...

That...Would...SUCK Would turn all of Shepard's (and everyone elses) struggle into a sideline.

Exactly. There are two endings I wouldn't like for ME 3. One being a random GOD LIKE force that saves the Galaxy or another being that to defeat the Reapers, everyone has to become a primitivst and destroy the Relays, Citadel, etc. Both would make me pretty unhappy as those endings have been done to death.

[Subguy614]

http://social.biowar...05/index/970146

[Byronic-Knight]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Velocithon wrote...

Bioware: "Hey we're gonna put this, this, this, this, and even THIS into the game IT'LL BE GREAT!!!"

Fans: " OMG this is going to be so cool they're doing everything we want!!!"

*game is released*

Fans: "...dafuq nothing you said was in here..."

Bioware: "We didn't know there was such a demand for it"

Fans:

This is literally the perfect way to explain it. 

[crappyjazzy]

Gemini1179 wrote...

crappyjazzy wrote...

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I think they've been extremely responsive.  Also, my example was to point out that sometimes you can listen but might be able to do what you're being asked. 

My example is not meant to describe Bioware as a manager and players of their games as employees.

I understand your position, but I take you to task on BioWare being responsive. In my opinion, they've been anything but responsive.

The problem with your argument, and to an extent Mr. Woo's posts, is that he can offer no transparency into the design and thought process of the company. That, for us, is what is frustrating. Saying you're listening but we can't know how you're operating with said info is kind of, well, frustrating.

I guess "responsive" means different things to us.  I don't think they should provide details of the inside workings of their design team.  I don't think they should provide details of what the DLC will contain.  I don't think any mod should say "yeah it sucked" even if they thought it did.  Not good business practice.  I think they're being responsive in providing the DLC period.

Thank you though for being reasonable in your disagreement with me.  It's appreciated and rare here! 

[ShepGep]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

Not trying to be rude...but I did just waste 80$ on a game that was a complete false advertisement and with the ending as it is with such loose interpretations...I could have just made up my own ending after ME2 and Shepard bossed up the Reaps and saved the galaxy then chose a few people who died along the way and saved myself 80$.

What I'm getting from your post is...


"We're a company that exists only because of our fans and customers...so what we do is lie to them about what the game will deliver and then proceed to tell them that we're listening to them but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll do anything about anything simply because we'd rather pat ourselves on the back. We're paid to disagree with your logically thought out and detailed assessments on why the ending is so terrible all the while never stating why we think it's a good or even sensible ending since artistic vision and patting ourselves on the back saying how proud we are of ourselves is so much easier than explaining or making any counterpoints favouring the ending."

Good job. You just failed PR and customer service 101. No wonder EA was up against Bank of America for worst company in the world a few weeks back.

Modifié par ShepGep, 13 avril 2012 - 01:02 .

[incinerator950]

GeoFukari wrote...

Thread Lock in 5.... 4... 3...

But seriously, Bioware has a larger WTF Level than Japan right now.

Hahaha no

[crappyjazzy]

ShepGep wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

 So you're basically saying...

"We're a company that exists only because of our fans and customers...so what we do is lie to them about what the game will deliver and then proceed to tell them that we're listening to them but that doesn't necessarily mean we'll do anything about anything simply because we'd rather pat ourselves on the back and we're paid to disagree with your logically thought out and detailed assessments on why the ending is so terrible all the while never stating why we think it's a good or even sensible ending."

Good job. You just failed PR and customer service 101. No wonder EA was up against Bank of America for worst company in the world a few weeks back.

That's some amazing interpretation skills you've got there.

[tomcplotts]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

at the risk of getting banned, this is completely disingenuous stanley. this means one of two things: either you're not listening and you're not being truthful here, OR you are listening as you say but apparently you feel that your patrons/consumers/subjects are just completely retarded and have nothing of value to add. So you can choose oblivious, contemptuous, patronizing, imperial or, probably the best of these, indifferent.

Probably not the best argument to insert yourself into.

[ahandsomeshark]

sfam wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

Actually I think you'll find most gamers here would far prefer an actual dialogue over the option of getting more "ammunition".  'Cause honestly, we fans really have no ammunition whether you agree or disagree with us.  We aren't in charge in any sense at all.  But what we also don't have is understanding for why things ended as they did - this we would really like a dialogue about, but thus far, we've received none. 

I totally get the defensiveness of Bioware over this though.  You guys have really had lots of nastiness and anger thrown your way.  And considering the rest of the game was pretty damn good, its clear to most here that the vast majority at Bioware poured their soul into this.  

But this still doesn't address the ending fiasco.  And it really was a fiasco in the vast majority of gamer opinions. It would be great if there was a way to have a dialogue about this, even if its a controlled dialogue with a select set of fans who you all feel are representative but not too over the top in their comments.  Or whatever.  But simply no response is going to get you what you've already got - angry fans who simmer more and more by the day.

this is also a good point, there's no real "ammunition" for fans no matter what anyone says. The only ammunition we have is $$$, and in that case I don't see how a definitive statement one way or the other would cause more damage than vague derailing responses.

[ShepGep]

tomcplotts wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

at the risk of getting banned, this is completely disingenuous stanley. this means one of two things: either you're not listening and you're not being truthful here, OR you are listening as you say but apparently you feel that your patrons/consumers/subjects are just completely retarded and have nothing of value to add. So you can choose oblivious, contemptuous, patronizing, imperial or, probably the best of these, indifferent.

Probably not the best argument to insert yourself into.

Quoted For Truth.

[ahandsomeshark]

That being said
> Post about bioware employee claiming they weren't aware of something that should have been improbable to not be aware of
> response: completely ignoring quote and stating something about opinions and agreements
> result: total derailment of original thread and discussion about the implications of bioware somehow becoming completely disconnected and oblivious to their fan base into argument about opinions

well played Mr. Woo

[tomcplotts]

legion999 wrote...

Kanon777 wrote...

Gemini1179 wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

No offense BSN, but you're starting to sound like a broken record.

Fixed for you

BSN isn't a person....

While I agree, you might want to take that issue up with the Supreme Court...

[Sesshaku]

Stanley Woo wrote...

sdfgdsfsdfsfs wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Not doing what you want us to do, and not agreeing with our decisions, does not mean we have stopped listening. It is possible to completely disagree with you while still taking your feedback into account.

It's possible to disagree, but a lot of the "issues" people raised with the ending are extremely legitimate, and to say that you "completely disagree" with those legitimate points is... troubling, to say the least.

And having a difference of opinion has absolutely no effect on the "legitimacy" of those issues. If you dislike X in a game, my saying "I disagree with you" has no effect on your opinion. It has no effect on BioWare already choosing to create clarification DLC. It doesn't make me right, it doesn't make you wrong. The only reason people want BioWare to (or me) to agree is to give you more ammunition to say "see? even Stanley Woo agrees with this!" or "even BioWare agrees. this proves we are right!" which does nothing except, well, make you feel better about being right.

But I'm not going to provide answers that will only be used to be either wielded as a weapon or given as proof that we hate you, because neither is conducive to productive discussion.

But you guys are doing it wrong. It's not against us that you need to be defensive. We are your clients for spacebrat sake. We loved Mass Effect 1 and 2, and Mass Effect 3 wasn't terrible....but it had a terrible ending.

We don't want YOU to say anything like that. We want BIOWARE as a whole, say: "Okay guys, it's clear that we missed the target, we are not going to change the canon ending, but we are going to explain why we think the ending was great, why the plotholes aren't plotholes, and we are seriously considering making a DLC with new endings based on your feedback". I would pay 10 usd to see new and more coherent endings,  im not your enemy, im a dissatisfied client. and the shields your commpany is raising it's not helping you, its hurting you. We want the exact opposite. We want to talk. But real talk. 

For example.

Why you guys though this ending was right? What's the explanation to that? What are your interpretations that could answer the plotholes? What are your plans to future Mass Effect games? Perhaps that would help to understand the move. 

But if you say things like "we didn't knew there was such a demand", or "artistic integrity", etc. Then you'll make angry the wrong people, your clients.

Because each interview about ME3 prior to release was about EXACTLY what we wanted. What happened in the middle? How did a clear statement about diverse endings ended up on a A1,A2 and A3 ending?.

And yes, in the process some people are going to be as#~hole, but that happens all the times, they're not the problem, the problem is that most of your fans completly disagree with the ending. Wich means that something went wrong, because on ME1 and 2 we were confident on your "artistic vision", and then, somehow, that artistic vision changed on the last 10 minutes and left us with a terrible feeling of wtf happened.