448 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

Shepard and the PLAYER are being indoctrinated and the point of indoctrination is that YOU DONT KNOW IT.

'Speculations from everyone' -BioWare

[CarpeJugulum]

T-0pel wrote...

[...]

1) "Such as; If you don't have enough EMS, not enough good scientists working on the Crucible, most likely not fine tuned, and when it fires, it burns the earth to a crisp basically."

That would be great, too bad its not true. EMS does not equal crucible. Crucible status is only a part of EMS, it is really badly implemented if what you said is correct.

[..]

Possible that a low EMS means the crucible can't be as effectively defended on its approach, meaning that it takes some damage. Not enough to stop it functioning, but enough to impair its ability to act without causing collateral damage.

[T-0pel]

CarpeJugulum wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

[...]

1) "Such as; If you don't have enough EMS, not enough good scientists working on the Crucible, most likely not fine tuned, and when it fires, it burns the earth to a crisp basically."

That would be great, too bad its not true. EMS does not equal crucible. Crucible status is only a part of EMS, it is really badly implemented if what you said is correct.

[..]

Possible that a low EMS means the crucible can't be as effectively defended on its approach, meaning that it takes some damage. Not enough to stop it functioning, but enough to impair its ability to act without causing collateral damage.

Hmm that is interesting. Too bad there are not cutscenes of this happening. For example before vaporize ending you would see the crucible badly damaged...

It just feels weird this whole game you keep building the Crucible AND a largest army that has ever existed in this galaxy. And in the end it just feels so unrewarding.

[majinbuu1307]

T-0pel wrote...

lol why do you bump instead of responding?

I do respond, alot, look through the thread

[Erield]

III Achilles II wrote...
(editing content to shorten length of post)
1. Star Child form
2. Star Child's voice. 
3. I'm not entirely sure what this point started out as--now it's IT vs. Star Kid making plans
4. Star Child tries to persuade you to not pick destroy
5. Catalyst is the Citadel, not Star Child
6. Entire time? What do you think the Citadel was? A week long vacation?

A.  TIM tries to indoctrinate Shepard, and Shep resists.  Why can't this be a Reaper? The catalyst is A Ghostly Figure. The truth is Indoc is EXTREMELY logical inside the ME Universe and from a business standpoint for Bioware. 

B.  It's not a rejection...Why do people keep saying that? It did happen. It did take place. Are you telling me that your dreams are not real images or thoughts or feelings? You've never woke scared or upset? The truth is if they filled in the plot holes for the ending everyone would just go well that wasn't as good as I thought. Let me ask this, if they intended to do an Indoc ending then how would you do it without plotholes, while leaving it on a cliffhanger? 

C.  I take everything at face value too. Everything in the ME Universe points to Indoctrination.

D.  Star Child is the Citadel = huge plot holes

I accept the ending as is too, but I just believe Bioware has better writers. The fact is they intended for Indoctrination of Shepard to play a role in the end and it's subtle. That's why the writers wanted to change the ending to create speculation. What is there to speculate if the ending is meant to be taken AT FACE VALUE. 

7.  No one ever answers this question. If they are terrible writers, then why did they just randomly include a scene where Shepard wakes up? If this is the true end of Shepard's story, then why not just have him die in ALL 3 ENDINGS. 

@ III Achiles II -- First off, thanks for actually having discussion about this!  Usually by this point, in my personal experience, it's turned into proponents of IT flaming me for disagreeing, or (much more often) ignoring my points altogether.

Now then, to the response.

1.  I dunno why/how Star Child is able to take it's form.  SO, sure, IT explains it better.

2.  Only the most fanatical of fans, plus the odd few who wear only one side of their headphones and not both, would notice this without it being pointed out.  I have not read anything from Bioware about this, but if they did it on purpose like you said, then it was rather...obscure.  As well hidden as the planet that mentions the "beings of light" planetary codex entry from ME1 foreshadowing the Star Kid in ME3.  If this was intended to be some kind of great evidence or show of Indoctrination, then it's like hiding the bullet that solves the murder under 3 feet of fresh snow that the characters in a story never search--and expecting the readers to just pick up on it.

3.  If we take what we learned from the Thessia VI and what we learn from Star Child at face value, then it logically follows that the Star Child was responsible for the Catalyst portion of the plans of the Crucible.  Without rejecting everything the Star Child says, that's the only reasonable explanation left.  An organic race added the plans for the Catalyst, Star Child (not Citadel is the Catalyst, and no organic has ever met the Catalyst before.  ie, Star Child is responsible.  This is much less of a jump than, "Everything in the ending is an indoctrination-attempted hallucination, filled with lies, inconsistencies, and half-truths.  Choose destroy, and reject these suppositions to continue the fight! Arrrrrr!"

4.  Star Child is, in an honest and objective sense, equally persuasive against Control as he is against Destroy.  SInce the IT argument is that even if you pick Control, you still fall under Indoctrination, why would this be the case?  "You will lose all that you are" is pretty damn persuasive, compared to, "All synthetic life will be destroyed.  Even you are partly synthetic."  In truth, though, none of the arguments for or against any of the options are actually compelling beyond a moment's thought.  Each have severe, significant flaws.

5.  If you reject the Star Child, then you can say that Star Child is not the Catalyst.  I accept everything that was presented at face value.  The Star Child is Catalyst vs. No, the Citadel is argument that will occur between IT and anti-IT proponents will have no clear winner as long as the question of IT remains.

6.  I was tired and didn't really understand your point here.  I'm too lazy to re-figure it out.  SO...you win this one! lol

A.  The catalyst appears as a ghostly figure, sure.  So does Avina, the VI tour guide on the Citadel.  If Shep was being Indoctrinated by the Reapers during his trek on the Citadel, then what was TIM doing?  An Indoctrination within an Indoctrination?  Possible, plausible, but...well, ridiculous too, from my standpoint. 

B.  My explanation of IT rejecting the endings is being misunderstood by you.  You reject that Control is a valid ending to the game, that does not result in the Reapers claiming Shepard for their own and continue on Reaping.  You reject that Synthesis is valid.  You reject everything that is said by the Star Child.  You accept that everything that happened really did happen, but in a dream-like indoctrination state (bad wording, but I can't think up better, sorry).  It's like me rejecting the main character dying at the end of the novel; the difference is that you think you have evidence to support the reason to reject those occurrences.

C.  You specifically reject the Star Child saying that he is the Catalyst, not the Citadel.  You reject what happens after you choose Control/Synthesis endings, too.  If you didn't, then you would believe that you can win against the Reapers without casting off the Indoctrination you believe you are fighting.

D.  Even bigger plot hole: none of the ME games should have taken place.  Instead of causing the Rachni Wars ~2000 years ago, Sovereign should have just summoned his buddies to take the lol-6month journey.  Or maybe Harby should have done that after ME1 instead of ME2.  Excellent writers come up with major plot holes all the time; when they don't have enough time or perspective to realize this, then bad things happen.

7.  (yes, I made this a 7, to continue on with your arguments instead of mine).  Showing Shep waking up makes very little sense.  I don't know why they did it.  In response, all I can ask is this: Why does a low EMS score result in only the Destroy option if Destroy is the only option to reject being indoctrinated by the Reapers?  If Control/Synthesis give you "fake, dream-like endings imagined by Shepard" then why can you die  against TIM, without getting a similar end-sequence?

[majinbuu1307]

T-0pel wrote...

all right, I read it all and here are my thoughts:

1) "Such as; If you don't have enough EMS, not enough good scientists working on the Crucible, most likely not fine tuned, and when it fires, it burns the earth to a crisp basically."

That would be great, too bad its not true. EMS does not equal crucible. Crucible status is only a part of EMS, it is really badly implemented if what you said is correct.

2) "Shepard is ACTUALLY on the Citadel, those events happened, and this is closure, however you may feel about the ending."

Why is wind blowing on the citadel?
EDIT: And in ME2 he barely survives re-entry because he has a full armor set with kinetic barrires that can withstand a lot of presure. It is definately possible for him to still be in one piece, although for intents and purposes, dead.

3) Technological singularity

The main problem for me. The whole point of TS is that we have no idea what will happen after that, we dont know how synthetic life will behave. Some say it will fight us some say it might not even give a damn about us. Nobody knows this.

The catalyst just casually mentions this as the main theme of the game, which for me up until that point was stopping the Reapers. And he presents zero evidence, we just have to trust him. Now of course you say "but he is bilions of years old, he knows everything otherwise he would not have started the cycle". First of all he does not state anything that is all just your theory. For all we know he might have created Harbinger and then shut himself down only to be awaken by the Crucible. He might not know much he might be a malfunctioned AI.

I just dont believe in absolutes. Even AIs can be different. Even if, and that is a BIG if, he witnessed countless Galaxies wiped out of organic life it does not mean this will always happen. Just as you say that Geth could possibly still rebel I say that there is the same possibility of them coexisting with organics.

To number 2. Is it not possible that it is not wind but life support leaking or some other various thing?
to number 3. I think the catalyst has seen most likely over a billion years of things coming to a TS, He knows whats up.He doesn't think in the here and now,Time is not a factor for him, if it happens in 2 billion years, then he is justified.

[majinbuu1307]

 space bump

[ryuasiu]

This is what, your 4th thread trying to kill IT and tell those that think IT is correct is stupid? At least you are being civil in this thread so I am going to assume you learned trolling and flaming does not work and this is not just an elaborate attempt to troll again.

Getting back on topic there are really smart things in IT, like the fact that you see oily shadows in your dreams, and there of course holes in it. But IMHO it has the least amount of holes then most of the other ideas and theories out there. The only way we will know for sure is waiting for the extended cut or bioware flat out stating what is really going on.

I also find fault with the synthetic argument. the Geth did not threaten all life. The were defending themselves from their creators, and when the creators ran they did not chase them down. The geth remained in the system for 300 years and never attacked anyone unless they entered their system. The only reason they started attacking was because of the...yep reapers. So let me get this straight star child, you are trying to save us from synthetics because they will always attack organics...but you forced millions of peaceful Geth that just wanted to survive, to kill organics?

[majinbuu1307]

ryuasiu wrote...

This is what, your 4th thread trying to kill IT and tell those that think IT is correct is stupid? At least you are being civil in this thread so I am going to assume you learned trolling and flaming does not work and this is not just an elaborate attempt to troll again.

Getting back on topic there are really smart things in IT, like the fact that you see oily shadows in your dreams, and there of course holes in it. But IMHO it has the least amount of holes then most of the other ideas and theories out there. The only way we will know for sure is waiting for the extended cut or bioware flat out stating what is really going on.

I also find fault with the synthetic argument. the Geth did not threaten all life. The were defending themselves from their creators, and when the creators ran they did not chase them down. The geth remained in the system for 300 years and never attacked anyone unless they entered their system. The only reason they started attacking was because of the...yep reapers. So let me get this straight star child, you are trying to save us from synthetics because they will always attack organics...but you forced millions of peaceful Geth that just wanted to survive, to kill organics?

What happens right now does not matter to the catalyst. It does not care that the Geth are OK guys for for first 300 years, what happens when some war breaks out 20,000 years later? And imagine how advanced the geth would be then. Geth decide we are a danger to them, attack. Catalyst sees itself justified.

[majinbuu1307]

stupid super fast forums.

[majinbuu1307]

FeriktheCerberus wrote...

DoomManiac wrote...

you have failed,we will find another way

----Harbinger

First playthrough ever i didn't understand that that was harbinger talking the whole time through the collector general.  lol. Derp

[ryuasiu]

majinbuu1307 wrote...

ryuasiu wrote...

This is what, your 4th thread trying to kill IT and tell those that think IT is correct is stupid? At least you are being civil in this thread so I am going to assume you learned trolling and flaming does not work and this is not just an elaborate attempt to troll again.

Getting back on topic there are really smart things in IT, like the fact that you see oily shadows in your dreams, and there of course holes in it. But IMHO it has the least amount of holes then most of the other ideas and theories out there. The only way we will know for sure is waiting for the extended cut or bioware flat out stating what is really going on.

I also find fault with the synthetic argument. the Geth did not threaten all life. The were defending themselves from their creators, and when the creators ran they did not chase them down. The geth remained in the system for 300 years and never attacked anyone unless they entered their system. The only reason they started attacking was because of the...yep reapers. So let me get this straight star child, you are trying to save us from synthetics because they will always attack organics...but you forced millions of peaceful Geth that just wanted to survive, to kill organics?

What happens right now does not matter to the catalyst. It does not care that the Geth are OK guys for for first 300 years, what happens when some war breaks out 20,000 years later? And imagine how advanced the geth would be then. Geth decide we are a danger to them, attack. Catalyst sees itself justified.

That was only one part of my argument, the other half was, if they are so concerend about synthetic life killing organics, then why push synthetic life to kill organics? While I am thinking of it why do the reapers upgrade the Geths codes if they dont want them to become more advance thus more dangerous? Would'nt upgrading the geth with reaper tech make it possible for them to become a threat?

[majinbuu1307]

ryuasiu wrote...

majinbuu1307 wrote...

ryuasiu wrote...

This is what, your 4th thread trying to kill IT and tell those that think IT is correct is stupid? At least you are being civil in this thread so I am going to assume you learned trolling and flaming does not work and this is not just an elaborate attempt to troll again.

Getting back on topic there are really smart things in IT, like the fact that you see oily shadows in your dreams, and there of course holes in it. But IMHO it has the least amount of holes then most of the other ideas and theories out there. The only way we will know for sure is waiting for the extended cut or bioware flat out stating what is really going on.

I also find fault with the synthetic argument. the Geth did not threaten all life. The were defending themselves from their creators, and when the creators ran they did not chase them down. The geth remained in the system for 300 years and never attacked anyone unless they entered their system. The only reason they started attacking was because of the...yep reapers. So let me get this straight star child, you are trying to save us from synthetics because they will always attack organics...but you forced millions of peaceful Geth that just wanted to survive, to kill organics?

What happens right now does not matter to the catalyst. It does not care that the Geth are OK guys for for first 300 years, what happens when some war breaks out 20,000 years later? And imagine how advanced the geth would be then. Geth decide we are a danger to them, attack. Catalyst sees itself justified.

That was only one part of my argument, the other half was, if they are so concerend about synthetic life killing organics, then why push synthetic life to kill organics? While I am thinking of it why do the reapers upgrade the Geths codes if they dont want them to become more advance thus more dangerous? Would'nt upgrading the geth with reaper tech make it possible for them to become a threat?

Push synthetic life to kill organic? Do you mean pushing the reapers to kill organics? Clarify please. 
And the Reapers knew that even with this code they where no match for them. Using as pawns, then throw them away. Shepard interferes and the reaper code is their own and they aren't pawns for the reapers anymore.

[majinbuu1307]

bump

[majinbuu1307]

keep finding this thread on page 2, this is no good lol

[Elite Midget]

That is a very terrible guide. Have you ever written one before?

[IronSabbath88]

Stop bumping this. Holy crap dude.

If people don't want to reply to your topic, they don't want to reply to your topic.

You're seeming like a troll just wanting attention now.

[majinbuu1307]

Elite Midget wrote...

That is a very terrible guide. Have you ever written one before?

Hi troll:)

[majinbuu1307]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Stop bumping this. Holy crap dude.

If people don't want to reply to your topic, they don't want to reply to your topic.

You're seeming like a troll just wanting attention now.

Wanting attention to this thread =/= trolling. Nice try though. Um, so, bioware trolls because they advertise their games with commercials? Yeah..yeah.

[balance5050]

 Represent your side here:http://social.biowar...171/20#11369325

[majinbuu1307]

balance5050 wrote...

 Represent your side here:http://social.biowar...171/20#11369325

Done:)

[Elite Midget]

majinbuu1307 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

That is a very terrible guide. Have you ever written one before?

Hi troll:)

So this is your first guide. I suppose the horrible format, the random rambling, and the inability to keep your format in a natural flow should have given it away. You should go read a guide, or learn from those that know what they're doing. Than maybe your pathetic attempt to troll the fanbase miight have been a bit more effective.

[majinbuu1307]

Elite Midget wrote...

majinbuu1307 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

That is a very terrible guide. Have you ever written one before?

Hi troll:)

So this is your first guide. I suppose the horrible format, the random rambling, and the inability to keep your format in a natural flow should have given it away. You should go read a guide, or learn from those that know what they're doing. Than maybe your pathetic attempt to troll the fanbase miight have been a bit more effective.

Lol look at you, attacking the format instead of reading the actual post. Come back when you have a decent counter argument instead of nitpicking the way I post. I do not pretend to be a english major, nor a editor or author.
Keep trollin trollin trollin hey

[FS3D]

TL;DR.

I did catch bits and pieces, and one thing I will say is this.

I don't care whether people accept the Indoctrination idea or not (and I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by giving it the highly lauded title of a Theory, because it isn't)...

The ending was poorly executed and completely tore apart narrative coherence.

BioWare needs to fix it.

[ShadowOptik]

 This is a must read. Thank you Original Poster!