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A guide to understanding the ending and eliminating Indoctrination Theory.


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#376
razor150

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III Achilles II wrote...

majinbuu1307 wrote...

III Achilles II wrote...

Let's just break this down.

Game ending- a point in the story where the narrative concludes

ME3 was promised to be an extremely amazing ending. The fight up the citadel is extremely awesome and so is the "Goodbye" to the crew.

You are hung up on the fact that DLC or ME4 is not an option and that's where your logic seems to bind you in your little box.

Think outside the box.

1. You are right. Reapers are still alive.
2. That means Truth DLC or ME4 will come next. Finish fight against Reapers and Collector's.


Regarding the Bioware quotes:
1. People are twisting their words.
2. If you told your gf you never wanted to get married, would you then tell her you wanted to get married before getting engaged or would you SUPRISE her with an engagement.
3. We are talking about Bioware who killed off their main character in the beginning of ME2. They've done some pretty crazy crap.
4. Many in-game items point to Indoc.
5. Bioware has had many opp. to deny Indoc.
6. Jessica has seen new content and has created a Indoc playthrough.
7. IT'S A THEORY. It's a discussion of the game. Not grasping at straws. My proof is ME1 and ME2. The writers are not idiots and I give them more credit to create such an intricate ending.
8. If you know what the ending DLC is then please post it for everyone. Otherwise, NO ONE but BIOWARE knows what the ending DLC is. IF INDOC WAS INTENDED, then they will lay it all out for people who do not understand.
9. There could be more DLC on the way. MP DLC came out this past week and they only announced it 5 days before it came out.


Let me stop you at ME4. If there is a ME4, was it not confirmed that any further mass effect games, would either not take place after 3, but before or during, and not be Shepards story.
Now, if Shepard is alive, and the reapers are still alive, ME4 would very much still be Shepards problem. 
Case closed right there.


Let's look empircally. Name another hero on another console who's game's stopped at 3. Zelda, Samus, Mario, Snake, etc.

But one interesting example is HALO. A triliogy is what they said and guess who is the star of Halo 4. MC.
The other interesting thing is the ending of 3 left fans with a CLIFFHANGER THAT MC WAS ALIVE.

Sound familiar.

If Bioware wanted to suprise their fans, who announce it early instead of just leaving a cliffhanger at ME3 that shows Shepard alive. He is either coming back in DLC or ME4.


The difference between Halo 3 despite having slight similiarities to their endings is that there was closure. Halo 3 really had only had a handful of characters people cared about, and all of their stories were resolved by the end by dying (Sarge, Keyes), going home (Arbiter) and trapped in unknown space (MC & Cortana). The biggest point of all is at the end you actually felt like you won, your sacrifice was being stuck in unknown space and it was worth it.

Mass Effect 3 had none of that. No closure, everything was left as uncertain. You're not sure what will become of the fleets you assembled, unsure of what happens to your crew/squad and you definately never feel like you defeated anybody. What I felt like was Shepard at the end turned into a lamb for slaughter for now real rhyme or reason so Bioware can tack on some psuedo artsy ending to show how hip they are. I am fine with sacrifice, that my character has to die. I chose the sacrifice ending in DA:O purposely because I felt it fit my character the best, it was their journey. I never felt that in Mass Effect 3.

As for the OP, you aren't really breaking knew ground here. Anybody who has watched the endings understands all your points. Since it was Bioware intent to have "speculation" everything is obviously up to interpretation. I don't believe the Indoc Theory for many of the same reasons you do, but until Bioware comes out and says it is wrong there is now real way to prove it wrong. 

#377
Apollo-XL5

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Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...
*snip*

Exactly what i was thinking, all we need is the cinematics to show what happened after shep wakes up, and through the cutscenes add some choices and then show cinematics that lead to the epilogue cinematics that show the state of the galaxy and sheps fate, if still alive.  there is no need for any more playable content in this ending.


The cinematics could also show in more detail what happens if you pick Control and Synthesis, without IT.
We can discuss this all day and we won't get anywhere.

Tell you what: I don't believe IT was intended, but may as well be used by Bioware to some extent. The reason I don't believe it is that real life events, outside the game, speak a different language.
I do not believe Bioware intended to indoctrinate the players as there is no value behind such an attempt.

Or Bioware are playing their cards close to their chests because they want to surprise us when they release it.  Hence all the "no comment" or "wait and see" responses we have had from them.  They did also say they want us to speculate about the current ending which they could have left open ended for that very reason, and now they will release the rest of it (fully polished and mastered) in the summer for us all to see.  I mean the anncouncement did come exactly one month after the game came out.  THat sounded like it was planned to me.

#378
Scam_poo

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This whole "synthetics will kill organics" thing is way too simple. I thought we could not "comprehend" their reasons?

#379
Rulid

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1. OP seems to miss the point. the catalyst logic is consistent of itself. Just not consistent with the REST of the story.

2. Tech sigularity doesn't work that way. The fact is you cannot PREDICT beyond the singularity. However, OP propounds the catalyst's empirical logic that "rebellion has always happened". This is obvious. It can happen, and it has happened in this cycle. But it was RESOLVED in some playthroughs. Hence, supporting catalyst due to fear of rebellion beyond tech singularity is just "being played by the catalyst" - like getting tricked into signing up an insurance contract.

#380
KingZayd

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Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...
*snip*

Exactly what i was thinking, all we need is the cinematics to show what happened after shep wakes up, and through the cutscenes add some choices and then show cinematics that lead to the epilogue cinematics that show the state of the galaxy and sheps fate, if still alive.  there is no need for any more playable content in this ending.


The cinematics could also show in more detail what happens if you pick Control and Synthesis, without IT.
We can discuss this all day and we won't get anywhere.

Tell you what: I don't believe IT was intended, but may as well be used by Bioware to some extent. The reason I don't believe it is that real life events, outside the game, speak a different language.
I do not believe Bioware intended to indoctrinate the players as there is no value behind such an attempt.

Or Bioware are playing their cards close to their chests because they want to surprise us when they release it.  Hence all the "no comment" or "wait and see" responses we have had from them.  They did also say they want us to speculate about the current ending which they could have left open ended for that very reason, and now they will release the rest of it (fully polished and mastered) in the summer for us all to see.  I mean the anncouncement did come exactly one month after the game came out.  THat sounded like it was planned to me.



agreed. they have lost in the short term, but I reckon, that they would win in the long term with this plan. It would be remembered as a great twist in the story. Where I think they failed is making the "fake" endings (as i really they are) so unsatisfying that approximately everyone got upset, and that some of those seeking to like the ending discovered IT, meaning it's not as much of a surprise.

#381
Myskal1981

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Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...
*snip*

Exactly what i was thinking, all we need is the cinematics to show what happened after shep wakes up, and through the cutscenes add some choices and then show cinematics that lead to the epilogue cinematics that show the state of the galaxy and sheps fate, if still alive.  there is no need for any more playable content in this ending.


The cinematics could also show in more detail what happens if you pick Control and Synthesis, without IT.
We can discuss this all day and we won't get anywhere.

Tell you what: I don't believe IT was intended, but may as well be used by Bioware to some extent. The reason I don't believe it is that real life events, outside the game, speak a different language.
I do not believe Bioware intended to indoctrinate the players as there is no value behind such an attempt.

Or Bioware are playing their cards close to their chests because they want to surprise us when they release it.  Hence all the "no comment" or "wait and see" responses we have had from them.  They did also say they want us to speculate about the current ending which they could have left open ended for that very reason, and now they will release the rest of it (fully polished and mastered) in the summer for us all to see.  I mean the anncouncement did come exactly one month after the game came out.  THat sounded like it was planned to me.


You already have enough "material" to speculate by taking these endings at face value. You don't need IT to speculate.
You interpret an announcement coming one month (minus one day btw) after release telling us that something is coming out in the summer without a fixed date and asking for feedback as something planned?
And meanwhile all hell breaks loose and BW/EA just sit back and watch because they have a master plan? What do they gain with it? Do they expect to sell more ME3 copies?

#382
Reorte

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KingZayd wrote...

agreed. they have lost in the short term, but I reckon, that they would win in the long term with this plan. It would be remembered as a great twist in the story. Where I think they failed is making the "fake" endings (as i really they are) so unsatisfying that approximately everyone got upset, and that some of those seeking to like the ending discovered IT, meaning it's not as much of a surprise.

If it was all a deliberate plan then they've misjudged it badly. Even if the plan was to wait until later they should've said something when it became pretty clear that they'd just upset a lot of people rather than stringing them along. A week or two would've worked.

#383
balance5050

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Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...
*snip*

Exactly what i was thinking, all we need is the cinematics to show what happened after shep wakes up, and through the cutscenes add some choices and then show cinematics that lead to the epilogue cinematics that show the state of the galaxy and sheps fate, if still alive.  there is no need for any more playable content in this ending.


The cinematics could also show in more detail what happens if you pick Control and Synthesis, without IT.
We can discuss this all day and we won't get anywhere.

Tell you what: I don't believe IT was intended, but may as well be used by Bioware to some extent. The reason I don't believe it is that real life events, outside the game, speak a different language.
I do not believe Bioware intended to indoctrinate the players as there is no value behind such an attempt.

Or Bioware are playing their cards close to their chests because they want to surprise us when they release it.  Hence all the "no comment" or "wait and see" responses we have had from them.  They did also say they want us to speculate about the current ending which they could have left open ended for that very reason, and now they will release the rest of it (fully polished and mastered) in the summer for us all to see.  I mean the anncouncement did come exactly one month after the game came out.  THat sounded like it was planned to me.


You already have enough "material" to speculate by taking these endings at face value. You don't need IT to speculate.
You interpret an announcement coming one month (minus one day btw) after release telling us that something is coming out in the summer without a fixed date and asking for feedback as something planned?
And meanwhile all hell breaks loose and BW/EA just sit back and watch because they have a master plan? What do they gain with it? Do they expect to sell more ME3 copies?


Wut. You're not speculating anything if you take the endings at face value, true speculation always ends with I.T.

#384
KingZayd

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Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...
*snip*

Exactly what i was thinking, all we need is the cinematics to show what happened after shep wakes up, and through the cutscenes add some choices and then show cinematics that lead to the epilogue cinematics that show the state of the galaxy and sheps fate, if still alive.  there is no need for any more playable content in this ending.


The cinematics could also show in more detail what happens if you pick Control and Synthesis, without IT.
We can discuss this all day and we won't get anywhere.

Tell you what: I don't believe IT was intended, but may as well be used by Bioware to some extent. The reason I don't believe it is that real life events, outside the game, speak a different language.
I do not believe Bioware intended to indoctrinate the players as there is no value behind such an attempt.

Or Bioware are playing their cards close to their chests because they want to surprise us when they release it.  Hence all the "no comment" or "wait and see" responses we have had from them.  They did also say they want us to speculate about the current ending which they could have left open ended for that very reason, and now they will release the rest of it (fully polished and mastered) in the summer for us all to see.  I mean the anncouncement did come exactly one month after the game came out.  THat sounded like it was planned to me.


You already have enough "material" to speculate by taking these endings at face value. You don't need IT to speculate.
You interpret an announcement coming one month (minus one day btw) after release telling us that something is coming out in the summer without a fixed date and asking for feedback as something planned?
And meanwhile all hell breaks loose and BW/EA just sit back and watch because they have a master plan? What do they gain with it? Do they expect to sell more ME3 copies?


with face value interpretaions, all we have to speculate on is how Bioware managed to mess up so badly after creating something so beautiful (the mass effect universe, not the starchild). we pretty much do need IT to be able to speculate on a universe that still makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, with a little suspension of disbelief (it is sci-fi after all), then there can't speculate on the universe itself.

As for what bioware gain from remaining silent, I believe they're playing the long game. A twist like this, even if they did mess up the delivery of said twist (fake endings were too poor to be satisfying or credible) would cement bioware's as the creators of the best game stories.

Modifié par KingZayd, 14 avril 2012 - 12:12 .


#385
KingZayd

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Reorte wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

agreed. they have lost in the short term, but I reckon, that they would win in the long term with this plan. It would be remembered as a great twist in the story. Where I think they failed is making the "fake" endings (as i really they are) so unsatisfying that approximately everyone got upset, and that some of those seeking to like the ending discovered IT, meaning it's not as much of a surprise.

If it was all a deliberate plan then they've misjudged it badly. Even if the plan was to wait until later they should've said something when it became pretty clear that they'd just upset a lot of people rather than stringing them along. A week or two would've worked.


i agree. unfortunately, they didn't anticipate this kerfuffle (which is surprising) and so they thought they had plenty of time. if most people were satisfied with the fake endings, then there would be no rush for the top secret dlc. I think they decided that by admitting IT and not having anything on hand, they gain nothing, or nearly nothing. People will still be disappointed that the game was unfinished, and the surprise will be all gone months before the ending was released. By delaying the IT confirmation, they atleast allow for people to enjoy the twist upon release.

#386
IronSabbath88

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I have to echo everyone else. It would be a great thing to remember down the line. Everyone would talk about the ending twist that BioWare pulled at the end of Mass Effect 3 and how the fake endings caused such an uproar.

People truly would talk about those for a long time.

#387
Myskal1981

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balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Apollo-XL5 wrote...
*snip*

Exactly what i was thinking, all we need is the cinematics to show what happened after shep wakes up, and through the cutscenes add some choices and then show cinematics that lead to the epilogue cinematics that show the state of the galaxy and sheps fate, if still alive.  there is no need for any more playable content in this ending.


The cinematics could also show in more detail what happens if you pick Control and Synthesis, without IT.
We can discuss this all day and we won't get anywhere.

Tell you what: I don't believe IT was intended, but may as well be used by Bioware to some extent. The reason I don't believe it is that real life events, outside the game, speak a different language.
I do not believe Bioware intended to indoctrinate the players as there is no value behind such an attempt.

Or Bioware are playing their cards close to their chests because they want to surprise us when they release it.  Hence all the "no comment" or "wait and see" responses we have had from them.  They did also say they want us to speculate about the current ending which they could have left open ended for that very reason, and now they will release the rest of it (fully polished and mastered) in the summer for us all to see.  I mean the anncouncement did come exactly one month after the game came out.  THat sounded like it was planned to me.


You already have enough "material" to speculate by taking these endings at face value. You don't need IT to speculate.
You interpret an announcement coming one month (minus one day btw) after release telling us that something is coming out in the summer without a fixed date and asking for feedback as something planned?
And meanwhile all hell breaks loose and BW/EA just sit back and watch because they have a master plan? What do they gain with it? Do they expect to sell more ME3 copies?


Wut. You're not speculating anything if you take the endings at face value, true speculation always ends with I.T.


Of course you can do, want some examples?
- Do the relay explosions work like the one shown in Arrival?
- What happens with the combined fleet in the Sol system when the relays are destroyed?
- What happens with Shepard's crew?
- How did Joker manage to escape?
- What planet did they crash on?
- What will Shepard order the Reapers to do when choosing control?
- Are the Geth really destroyed when picking the red ending?
- What does synthesis really mean?
- What happens to the Citadel, are there any survivors?

You see, you can speculate ALOT with these endings even without IT.

#388
KingZayd

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no you can't. face value breaks the mass effect universe via paradox.

#389
hoodaticus

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M.Erik.Sal wrote...

I'm not going to read the rest of this thread, because it's not worth my time.


I , of course, refuse to read anything else you say.  Blocked.

#390
Myskal1981

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KingZayd wrote...

no you can't. face value breaks the mass effect universe via paradox.


don't get me wrong, I don't like the endings, but I can take them at face value.
Imagine the following:
Extended DLC clarifies
- that the Mass Relay explosions were different and that they did not end up supernovaeing every system
- that the combined fleet can somehow manage to fly home with sufficient rations
- that in the Control ending Shepard sends the entire Reaper fleet into the sun or that he orders them to dismantle, so there resources can be used to rebuild or whatever
- explains what happens to each of your crew members
- explains how the Normandy gets rescued from the planet
-....

Isn't this also a possibility, maybe even more probable than the Extended DLC confirming IT?

#391
KingZayd

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i'm referring to the contradictions with the earlier games. obviously it's possible to fix (anything would be if you tried hard enough), but not with face value. There has to be some sort of illusion/manipulation for it to work really. not necessarilly IT, but at the very least, the starchild is a damned liar.

#392
Myskal1981

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KingZayd wrote...

i'm referring to the contradictions with the earlier games. obviously it's possible to fix (anything would be if you tried hard enough), but not with face value. There has to be some sort of illusion/manipulation for it to work really. not necessarilly IT, but at the very least, the starchild is a damned liar.


I agree. I also believe that the Extended Cut DLC (without IT) will not make the ending great all of the sudden.
The fact remains that Bioware introduced a major new character and even worse a major new plot problem (solve the technological singularity) in the end.

#393
Herr Igor

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"You are familiar with the Law of Symbolism: If you have to ask what something symbolized, it didn't."

ROGER EBERT

#394
MassEffectReckoner

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I really hope this theory is real. My shepard has been fighting since the first game. He lost Ashley and the salarians on virmire, he lost Mordin Tali and Leigion. He failed to save Jack and the students in time and towards the end when the harbiger beam hit he saw his broski Garrus and his love interst Liara laying on the ground dead. He deserves some happyness.
(P.S that was my first playthrough the second one more people lived.)

#395
DJBare

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majinbuu1307 wrote...
The lack of Harbinger just served to make his appearance more dramatic. BOOM (lands) Oh Shi-

Actually I did not even know that was harbinger, that's how much of an impact he had on me, I thought it was just some generic reaper protecting the beam.

#396
im commander shep

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The logic behind the star-kids reasons for the reapers are false based on what we have seen in the previous game, and shepard is not even given the oppitunity to bring any of this up. The other key plot hole is the fact the star-kid/catalyst is the citadel why bother with ME1 saren and buddies activate the citadel mass relay being that he is it.

Nice try at an explanation but your have focused on one of many issues with the ending what about the normandy and squad mates and the final breath scene if shepards story is over.

And you have not eliminated IDT.

#397
PhotonMaze

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Seriously? The end of the game was clearly designed for extra content and/or speculation. Whether it be Mass Effect 4 or Ending DLC, the end is clearly designed to be very open to interpretation. They may not have judged the extent of the fan outcry, but I'm still betting they would have given more story regardless of what fans were saying.

#398
im commander shep

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majinbuu1307 wrote...

ryuasiu wrote...

This is what, your 4th thread trying to kill IT and tell those that think IT is correct is stupid? At least you are being civil in this thread so I am going to assume you learned trolling and flaming does not work and this is not just an elaborate attempt to troll again.

Getting back on topic there are really smart things in IT, like the fact that you see oily shadows in your dreams, and there of course holes in it. But IMHO it has the least amount of holes then most of the other ideas and theories out there. The only way we will know for sure is waiting for the extended cut or bioware flat out stating what is really going on.

I also find fault with the synthetic argument. the Geth did not threaten all life. The were defending themselves from their creators, and when the creators ran they did not chase them down. The geth remained in the system for 300 years and never attacked anyone unless they entered their system. The only reason they started attacking was because of the...yep reapers. So let me get this straight star child, you are trying to save us from synthetics because they will always attack organics...but you forced millions of peaceful Geth that just wanted to survive, to kill organics?

What happens right now does not matter to the catalyst. It does not care that the Geth are OK guys for for first 300 years, what happens when some war breaks out 20,000 years later? And imagine how advanced the geth would be then. Geth decide we are a danger to them, attack. Catalyst sees itself justified.


Do you not think shepard would at least question if not totally tell the star kid to get lost, based on the fact that mass genocide every 50000 years in the name of saving organics from something that MIGHT!! happen in the next billion, (as stated by you on here). Based on shepards and the games logic of questioning and making a choice and the story threads given in ME3 (especially if you made peace and seen the history of geth quarians) that to be hit with this contradicting logic and no choice but to agree with it at the end is one of the biggest issues of the games end and you it does not make sense.

Sorry if i've just said what everyone else has said.

#399
im commander shep

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PhotonMaze wrote...

Seriously? The end of the game was clearly designed for extra content and/or speculation. Whether it be Mass Effect 4 or Ending DLC, the end is clearly designed to be very open to interpretation. They may not have judged the extent of the fan outcry, but I'm still betting they would have given more story regardless of what fans were saying.


Agree ^

and the way bioware has handled it, ie: not said much and when they do its cryptic or ambiguous adds weight to all of this. The thing bioware have not known how to handle is the massive fan outcry without taking to much of a hit to EA's wallet. Especially with so many fans saying they won't by any further DLC til something is done. Image IPB queue panicked EA/Bioware excutives(well not that much panic afterall they sold 4mil of copies

Modifié par im commander shep, 14 avril 2012 - 09:29 .


#400
Vox Draco

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Myskal1981 wrote...
Tell you what: I don't believe IT was intended, but may as well be used by Bioware to some extent. The reason I don't believe it is that real life events, outside the game, speak a different language.
I do not believe Bioware intended to indoctrinate the players as there is no value behind such an attempt.


Funny, I think mostly the complete opposite...that indeed I.T. was planned and already worked on, therefore a lot of hints and the strangeness...but in the end I.T. was scrapped and in a last minute attempt we were left with what we've got...art some call it, for me I call it Plan B (or Plan 9)

My brain constantly tells me that Bioware would have never let a month (and now even longer, till summer!) just pass by without ANY kind of little substantial hint at I.T. to keep the hope alive and prevent players from wandering away, stop playing the game and boycotting DLCs...not to mention the bad "press" (fanbased) on forums, in comic strips and youtube-vids...

My brain also says that confirming the I.T. in the BEST possible way...with additional game-content...seems to be out of question, when you look at official statements...

And my heart? It keeps whispering to me "There is still hope"...hope that Bioware still has something up their sleeves to surprise us, to blow our heads off in a positive way...apart from some explanation-cutscenes.

It is just saddening. The possibilites that I.T. provides for a stunning, breath-taking, epic ending to Shepard's and our saga are so damn impressive when you give it some thought...

1. Red Ending, you refuse Star Childs "logic" and wake up in London, unindoctrinated and more or less ready to kick the Reaper's..whatever...A massive battle still rages, and you might still end up on the citadel to activate the crucible, fighting against real TIM (or convince him to help you?), against Harbinger, and in the end fire the crucible/activate it...together with your squadmates...and depending on EMS you might even survive all this...

2. Control...basically you do the same things and objectives...but...with a twist. Your Shepard might have a blurry, strange vision while playing. Or constantly hear Reaper/Harbinger voices in his/her head. And in the end, confronting the final villain...Harbinger takes control of YOU! You choose to resist, but cannot. You choose a valid paragon/renegade choice, thinking you do the right thing and refuse Harby, but it doesn't work, you point the gun at your friends!..and you helplessly watch how Shepard kills his/her squadmates with the undodgeable plot-bullets...ultimate Reaper-win...though with high EMS there might be a little hint that, although the galaxy is wiped out, there might remain something (Liaras box or something like that) to at least help the next cycles...

3. Green Ending. well, as I envision it..this would be much shorter and..a whole lot of different than the others...Here Shepard is fully "huskified"...and you play him/her like that, like some uber-husk, with completly different reaper-based powers..and go on a killing rampage against Earth-forces and kill your former freinds and allies...and in the end...you see cutscenes of the harvested galaxy...and your Husk-Shepard on some empty and ruined planet...a last greet and thanks from Harbinger...a last moment of understanding on your Shepards face...then the Reapers leave him/her to be...and Shepard ceases to exist, realizing what a full and puppet s/he had been. Remember the Darkspawn-DLC from DA:O? Something along that line

And this is why I.T. still has a place in my heart, no matter how silly it might be to some..because after palying through ME3 I had nothing...just sadness, just emptiness. I.T. at least filled this void with something my mind can handle and build upon. Grasping straws maybe...I don't care actually!