448 réponses à ce sujet

[Nincehelser]

 I think you're missing some key points.  What the Star Child says does make sense, but Indoctrination Theory is valid because it explains the context of the ending.  For example: 
1. If the final location of the synthesize/control/destroy station is at the joining of the Crucible and the Catalyst, how can Shepard breathe? It would have to be in space.
2. How many rounds can you shoot out of the final pistol? answer: as many as you like, for as long as you like. No other pistol in the game (or any previous game) does this.
3. Anderson says he gets to the station after you left, but arrives before you do.  There is only one hallway. He would have to pass you at some point.
4. If you take your LI on the final mission, they are transported back onto the Normandy for the crash scene.
5. No matter what armor you wear for the final fight, Shepard's armor invariably looks the same when meeting the Star Child.

6. How does the Illusive Man control the movements of Anderson or Shepard?

All these points, and more besides, can be explained by the theory that the final two scenes (Illusive Man confrontation and Star Child) never happened, and that Shepard either dreamed the whole thing or was indoctrinated at the end.

[Iconoclaste]

Nincehelser wrote...

I think you're missing some key points.  What the Star Child says does make sense, but Indoctrination Theory is valid because it explains the context of the ending.  For example:
1. If the final location of the synthesize/control/destroy station is at the joining of the Crucible and the Catalyst, how can Shepard breathe? It would have to be in space.
2. How many rounds can you shoot out of the final pistol? answer: as many as you like, for as long as you like. No other pistol in the game (or any previous game) does this.
3. Anderson says he gets to the station after you left, but arrives before you do.  There is only one hallway. He would have to pass you at some point.
4. If you take your LI on the final mission, they are transported back onto the Normandy for the crash scene.
5. No matter what armor you wear for the final fight, Shepard's armor invariably looks the same when meeting the Star Child.

6. How does the Illusive Man control the movements of Anderson or Shepard?

All these points, and more besides, can be explained by the theory that the final two scenes (Illusive Man confrontation and Star Child) never happened, and that Shepard either dreamed the whole thing or was indoctrinated at the end.

1-All the Citadel is made like this, with "open skies". Play the game, youy'll see for yourself. Even where the Normandy casually docks is above the 7m height limit of the "artificial atmosphere" maintained by mass effect fields, yet we see people walking there without spacesuits. Where Shepard chats with the Catalyst child, the area is circled by a large rim and it's above a huge hole with these electricity zaps, Shepard is not just standing "outside the hull" of the Citadel.

2-Game mechanics are not the same throughout the whole ending. As soon as Shepard turns more than a few degrees, he raises his gun to aim. He does that until the very end. You can shoot at will, it is useless, as you can walk through the keepers in the dark corridor, and also you are "blocked" from walking back from an option you take in the end, if you walk too far, etc. You do not have inventory anymore, you cannot even press the "escape" key. Apart from being annoying, this is not related to IT, but simply to game mechanics tunneling you towards the end.

3-Anderson might simply have waken up before Shepard, but in another corridor. When Shepard reaches half the lenght of the corridor he's in, Anderson tells him that a wall just move, and the place is changing configuration. When you get on the "bridge", you can see similar bridges on each side of yours, so the entrance to the central platform may simply rotate towards a specific bridge.

4-What's that have to do with IT? Oh! I know : Shepard is dreaming of something useful for the Reapers...

5-The same as game mechanics. It happens during all 3 games during cutscenes or dialogues : my weapon magically changes! Sometimes, the helmet is gone. Or maybe they thought it was very, very secondary what color of burns and scratches Shepard had for the final scene.

I just played the endings a dozen times tonight, just to get a few good snapshots, and the story straight. I read in a post above that Harbinger would not leave the area while Shepard is getting back on his feet. Well, Harby left some time before that, so he just didn't see Shepard getting up. He broke the fight in space to go protect the conduit, now that the message sent by a marine that no one made it to the conduit, Harby resumes to space to fight. Then, Shepard stands.

[majinbuu1307]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Nincehelser wrote...

I think you're missing some key points.  What the Star Child says does make sense, but Indoctrination Theory is valid because it explains the context of the ending.  For example:
1. If the final location of the synthesize/control/destroy station is at the joining of the Crucible and the Catalyst, how can Shepard breathe? It would have to be in space.
2. How many rounds can you shoot out of the final pistol? answer: as many as you like, for as long as you like. No other pistol in the game (or any previous game) does this.
3. Anderson says he gets to the station after you left, but arrives before you do.  There is only one hallway. He would have to pass you at some point.
4. If you take your LI on the final mission, they are transported back onto the Normandy for the crash scene.
5. No matter what armor you wear for the final fight, Shepard's armor invariably looks the same when meeting the Star Child.

6. How does the Illusive Man control the movements of Anderson or Shepard?

All these points, and more besides, can be explained by the theory that the final two scenes (Illusive Man confrontation and Star Child) never happened, and that Shepard either dreamed the whole thing or was indoctrinated at the end.

1-All the Citadel is made like this, with "open skies". Play the game, youy'll see for yourself. Even where the Normandy casually docks is above the 7m height limit of the "artificial atmosphere" maintained by mass effect fields, yet we see people walking there without spacesuits. Where Shepard chats with the Catalyst child, the area is circled by a large rim and it's above a huge hole with these electricity zaps, Shepard is not just standing "outside the hull" of the Citadel.

2-Game mechanics are not the same throughout the whole ending. As soon as Shepard turns more than a few degrees, he raises his gun to aim. He does that until the very end. You can shoot at will, it is useless, as you can walk through the keepers in the dark corridor, and also you are "blocked" from walking back from an option you take in the end, if you walk too far, etc. You do not have inventory anymore, you cannot even press the "escape" key. Apart from being annoying, this is not related to IT, but simply to game mechanics tunneling you towards the end.

3-Anderson might simply have waken up before Shepard, but in another corridor. When Shepard reaches half the lenght of the corridor he's in, Anderson tells him that a wall just move, and the place is changing configuration. When you get on the "bridge", you can see similar bridges on each side of yours, so the entrance to the central platform may simply rotate towards a specific bridge.

4-What's that have to do with IT? Oh! I know : Shepard is dreaming of something useful for the Reapers...

5-The same as game mechanics. It happens during all 3 games during cutscenes or dialogues : my weapon magically changes! Sometimes, the helmet is gone. Or maybe they thought it was very, very secondary what color of burns and scratches Shepard had for the final scene.

I just played the endings a dozen times tonight, just to get a few good snapshots, and the story straight. I read in a post above that Harbinger would not leave the area while Shepard is getting back on his feet. Well, Harby left some time before that, so he just didn't see Shepard getting up. He broke the fight in space to go protect the conduit, now that the message sent by a marine that no one made it to the conduit, Harby resumes to space to fight. Then, Shepard stands.

Pretty much this:)

[Silhouett3]

Iconoclaste wrote...

1-All the Citadel is made like this, with "open skies". Play the game, youy'll see for yourself. Even where the Normandy casually docks is above the 7m height limit of the "artificial atmosphere" maintained by mass effect fields, yet we see people walking there without spacesuits. Where Shepard chats with the Catalyst child, the area is circled by a large rim and it's above a huge hole with these electricity zaps, Shepard is not just standing "outside the hull" of the Citadel.

You sure? Citadel has its artificial light, a "nebula" as codex states, but I don't remember any codex entry mentioning an artificial atmosphere.  

Also these are from the citadel scene when it's arms closed in ME1. My Shepard has no helmet indoors:



She breaks the elevators glass and continues on foot: 

Modifié par Silhouett3, 15 avril 2012 - 08:19 .

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Nincehelser wrote...

I think you're missing some key points.  What the Star Child says does make sense, but Indoctrination Theory is valid because it explains the context of the ending.  For example:
1. If the final location of the synthesize/control/destroy station is at the joining of the Crucible and the Catalyst, how can Shepard breathe? It would have to be in space.
2. How many rounds can you shoot out of the final pistol? answer: as many as you like, for as long as you like. No other pistol in the game (or any previous game) does this.
3. Anderson says he gets to the station after you left, but arrives before you do.  There is only one hallway. He would have to pass you at some point.
4. If you take your LI on the final mission, they are transported back onto the Normandy for the crash scene.
5. No matter what armor you wear for the final fight, Shepard's armor invariably looks the same when meeting the Star Child.

6. How does the Illusive Man control the movements of Anderson or Shepard?

All these points, and more besides, can be explained by the theory that the final two scenes (Illusive Man confrontation and Star Child) never happened, and that Shepard either dreamed the whole thing or was indoctrinated at the end.

1-All the Citadel is made like this, with "open skies". Play the game, youy'll see for yourself. Even where the Normandy casually docks is above the 7m height limit of the "artificial atmosphere" maintained by mass effect fields, yet we see people walking there without spacesuits. Where Shepard chats with the Catalyst child, the area is circled by a large rim and it's above a huge hole with these electricity zaps, Shepard is not just standing "outside the hull" of the Citadel.

2-Game mechanics are not the same throughout the whole ending. As soon as Shepard turns more than a few degrees, he raises his gun to aim. He does that until the very end. You can shoot at will, it is useless, as you can walk through the keepers in the dark corridor, and also you are "blocked" from walking back from an option you take in the end, if you walk too far, etc. You do not have inventory anymore, you cannot even press the "escape" key. Apart from being annoying, this is not related to IT, but simply to game mechanics tunneling you towards the end.

3-Anderson might simply have waken up before Shepard, but in another corridor. When Shepard reaches half the lenght of the corridor he's in, Anderson tells him that a wall just move, and the place is changing configuration. When you get on the "bridge", you can see similar bridges on each side of yours, so the entrance to the central platform may simply rotate towards a specific bridge.

4-What's that have to do with IT? Oh! I know : Shepard is dreaming of something useful for the Reapers...

5-The same as game mechanics. It happens during all 3 games during cutscenes or dialogues : my weapon magically changes! Sometimes, the helmet is gone. Or maybe they thought it was very, very secondary what color of burns and scratches Shepard had for the final scene.

I just played the endings a dozen times tonight, just to get a few good snapshots, and the story straight. I read in a post above that Harbinger would not leave the area while Shepard is getting back on his feet. Well, Harby left some time before that, so he just didn't see Shepard getting up. He broke the fight in space to go protect the conduit, now that the message sent by a marine that no one made it to the conduit, Harby resumes to space to fight. Then, Shepard stands.

1.There are no open skys on the citadel. When in the game have you been in any placeon the citadel that's not inclosed?
2.After theShep is cut down, everything is symbolisum...Even the gameplay.
3.Waken up before?Yet, never sees nor wake Shepard? How does that make sense?Also, there is only on entrance to the center plat form....How does Anderson get there first with only one path there.
4.IT says it's a dream....Dream have a history to get wired.
6. you still haven't awnsered 6....

[majinbuu1307]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

1-All the Citadel is made like this, with "open skies". Play the game, youy'll see for yourself. Even where the Normandy casually docks is above the 7m height limit of the "artificial atmosphere" maintained by mass effect fields, yet we see people walking there without spacesuits. Where Shepard chats with the Catalyst child, the area is circled by a large rim and it's above a huge hole with these electricity zaps, Shepard is not just standing "outside the hull" of the Citadel.

2-Game mechanics are not the same throughout the whole ending. As soon as Shepard turns more than a few degrees, he raises his gun to aim. He does that until the very end. You can shoot at will, it is useless, as you can walk through the keepers in the dark corridor, and also you are "blocked" from walking back from an option you take in the end, if you walk too far, etc. You do not have inventory anymore, you cannot even press the "escape" key. Apart from being annoying, this is not related to IT, but simply to game mechanics tunneling you towards the end.

3-Anderson might simply have waken up before Shepard, but in another corridor. When Shepard reaches half the lenght of the corridor he's in, Anderson tells him that a wall just move, and the place is changing configuration. When you get on the "bridge", you can see similar bridges on each side of yours, so the entrance to the central platform may simply rotate towards a specific bridge.

4-What's that have to do with IT? Oh! I know : Shepard is dreaming of something useful for the Reapers...

5-The same as game mechanics. It happens during all 3 games during cutscenes or dialogues : my weapon magically changes! Sometimes, the helmet is gone. Or maybe they thought it was very, very secondary what color of burns and scratches Shepard had for the final scene.

I just played the endings a dozen times tonight, just to get a few good snapshots, and the story straight. I read in a post above that Harbinger would not leave the area while Shepard is getting back on his feet. Well, Harby left some time before that, so he just didn't see Shepard getting up. He broke the fight in space to go protect the conduit, now that the message sent by a marine that no one made it to the conduit, Harby resumes to space to fight. Then, Shepard stands.

You sure? Citadel has its artificial light, a "nebula" as codex states, but I don't remember any codex entry mentioning an artificial atmosphere.  

Also these are from the citadel scene when it's arms closed in ME1. My Shepard has no helmet indoors:



She breaks the elevators glass and continues on foot: 

If the Catalyst can make an elevator conjure up from a spot where shepard passed out(how did he know he would land there?) then im sure he can have support systems of some form where he is.

[Silhouett3]

@majinbuu1307

Is that Reapers being thoughtful or just you? Because - correct me if I'm wrong - no such notion has ever introduced in Mass Effect like artificial atmosphere.

[majinbuu1307]

Silhouett3 wrote...

@majinbuu1307

Is that Reapers being thoughtful or just you? Because - correct me if I'm wrong - no such notion has ever introduced in Mass Effect like artificial atmosphere.

..All of the Citadel has artificial atmosphere.<_<

[majinbuu1307]

n

[LivingHitokiri]

So lets justify the mass genocide that reapers do every 50000 years just because there is a probability for synthetics to wipe out the galaxy , guess what, bull****. its not logic or anything, its even worse when Shepard doesn't even argue against it.

How about Sovereign thinking of organics and inferior beings and trying to preserve the galaxy from them ?
ohh right, i forgot bioware changed the lead writers, the same people that ****ed up Mass effect books with plotholes and made people burn them.
You do not have to explain how a bull**** is bull****, thats what Bioware tries to do with the dlc ending explanation, thats what we didn't want to have.
i always believed that indoctrination theory was wrong, for many reasons and one fo them is that bioware couldn't ( sadly) pull such a stunt. best part and most hilarious point of indoctrination theory is the body color explanation that shepard see it after he wakes up from harbingers beam, just to find out that it was all plain BAD textures of dead bodies that reapers where gathering at Citadel ( like Anderson said) and not some hallucination that Shepard sees.

Sorry, but i wont come to believe that galactic genocide can be even considered as option.

[majinbuu1307]

LivingHitokiri wrote...

So lets justify the mass genocide that reapers do every 50000 years just because there is a probability for synthetics to wipe out the galaxy , guess what, bull****. its not logic or anything, its even worse when Shepard doesn't even argue against it.

How about Sovereign thinking of organics and inferior beings and trying to preserve the galaxy from them ?
ohh right, i forgot bioware changed the lead writers, the same people that ****ed up Mass effect books with plotholes and made people burn them.
You do not have to explain how a bull**** is bull****, thats what Bioware tries to do with the dlc ending explanation, thats what we didn't want to have.
i always believed that indoctrination theory was wrong, for many reasons and one fo them is that bioware couldn't ( sadly) pull such a stunt. best part and most hilarious point of indoctrination theory is the body color explanation that shepard see it after he wakes up from harbingers beam, just to find out that it was all plain BAD textures of dead bodies that reapers where gathering at Citadel ( like Anderson said) and not some hallucination that Shepard sees.

Sorry, but i wont come to believe that galactic genocide can be even considered as option.

He doesn't think they are inferior, he knows, Just stating a fact. The reapers seem cold and evil, but they are logical and calculating, they don't care about morals, if ou go against them, they will tell you you will die. You're in their way.

[LivingHitokiri]

majinbuu1307 wrote...

LivingHitokiri wrote...

So lets justify the mass genocide that reapers do every 50000 years just because there is a probability for synthetics to wipe out the galaxy , guess what, bull****. its not logic or anything, its even worse when Shepard doesn't even argue against it.

How about Sovereign thinking of organics and inferior beings and trying to preserve the galaxy from them ?
ohh right, i forgot bioware changed the lead writers, the same people that ****ed up Mass effect books with plotholes and made people burn them.
You do not have to explain how a bull**** is bull****, thats what Bioware tries to do with the dlc ending explanation, thats what we didn't want to have.
i always believed that indoctrination theory was wrong, for many reasons and one fo them is that bioware couldn't ( sadly) pull such a stunt. best part and most hilarious point of indoctrination theory is the body color explanation that shepard see it after he wakes up from harbingers beam, just to find out that it was all plain BAD textures of dead bodies that reapers where gathering at Citadel ( like Anderson said) and not some hallucination that Shepard sees.

Sorry, but i wont come to believe that galactic genocide can be even considered as option.

He doesn't think they are inferior, he knows, Just stating a fact. The reapers seem cold and evil, but they are logical and calculating, they don't care about morals, if ou go against them, they will tell you you will die. You're in their way.

Yes he does, thats my point, which makes it even more important on how this viewpoint makes a 180 turn and suddenly turns into a praise on how  "verssatile" humans are, how they can advance more blah blah and how we will protect you from bad guys you will create, so let jsut kill you ,no need to waste your time.

Aka nonsense, its all bull****, they turned  major villains and just sold them cheap in the last minutes because probably they couldnt or didnt have time  to finish it up properly.

[LordSlavius]

Sovereign: "My kind transcends your very understanding.".

Starchild: "Oh hai there. Let me explain to you the reason and motives behind the Reapers in thirty seconds or so."

[DJBare]

I'm sorry, my error, Joe must have edited the scene in here's what actually occurs

Modifié par DJBare, 15 avril 2012 - 11:38 .

[LivingHitokiri]

DJBare wrote...

This scene is immediately before the breath scene.
http://i.imgur.com/u3SdI.jpg?1

Wans't that harbinger taking off after he took down shepard ?
i remmeber seeing that when shepard woke up and saw harbinger flying away.

[sammcl]

I agree Indoctrination Theory is probably false, mostly because of the implications of releasing a concluding chapter without a real ending. I just don't think anyone would do that when some users wouldn't experience the supposedly planned real ending. I think IT is feasible and cool but the time to reveal that is post credits not weeks or months after the game's release. I don't believe that the development team would hear a plan like that and not go "wait a minute, you want to do what?"

My problem with the ending was almost entirely with the presentation of the catalyst, I think making it take the form of the kid was a huge mistake. The logic is mostly fine, I completely accept that he believes synthetics will wipe out organics. The reason for not simply destroying synthetics rather than harvesting organics is not adequately explained though. It could be as you said, that the advanced races will continue advancing and could do even more damage. But if the reapers are known protectors, isn't that enough? If they want to discourage that, couldn't they allow the synthetics to do enough damage that organics learn their lesson, then wipe them out before they overrun the galaxy? There's just too many possibilities, this should have been explained.

And I believe Destruction is the best option, the choice to say "maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't, whatever the case we don't want YOU around anymore."

[DJBare]

DJBare wrote...

This scene is immediately before the breath scene.
http://i.imgur.com/u3SdI.jpg?1

I'm sorry, my error, Joe must have edited the scene in, here's what actually occurs

Modifié par DJBare, 15 avril 2012 - 11:39 .

[majinbuu1307]

bump

[majinbuu1307]

bump a day later

[Iconoclaste]

So, what's up now?

[Uncle Jo]

Yo OP. Just wanted to say that I agree with on the fact that Bioware never had the IT in their mind.
I personally found the IT very seducing but one point has always disturbed me : The Prothean VI. I know a lot of things have been said about (non reliability, Shep was just on the beginn of the Indoctrination Process and so on...), not convincing me tough...

Further more the VI on Thessia said something about the cycles, supposing that the Reapers themselves were not the mastermind in this story and controlled by a superior power, which could be a hint or an introduction to the Starbrat...

If the IT was true, it would have been revealed to the player, JUST AFTER he made his blue/green/red choice, even in a panel a la DAO... Not one day, two weeks or three months later...
Such a twist-ending needs to be revealed, as the player is still at the apex of tension, otherwise the effect is gone...
Why would have Bioware waited so long before confirming or dismissing the IT and risking such a backlash ?

It would be as if in "The Usual Suspects", we see K. Spacey/ Keyser Söze getting out of the police station, still limping, and then would get a black screen with the credits... Later we learn by rumors and without seeing it that, he actually walks like you and me and that he's the bad guy... And Bryan Singer refuses to confirm or dismiss this rumor... Doesn't make sense...

By the way the logic of the Starbrat is all but..logical and clear... It's freaking metaphysical space-magic... I'll never buy the "Synthetics will always kill the organics, blablabla..."
The end of ME3 ist still one of the most preposterous/incoherent/rushed endings I've ever seen... It's absolutely clear that Bioware ran out of time or was too lazy... But I won't grasp at straws and I would advice the IT Fans to do samewise, because it will hurt pretty much when the DLC Extended Cut comes out....

[majinbuu1307]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Yo OP. Just wanted to say that I agree with on the fact that Bioware never had the IT in their mind.
I personally found the IT very seducing but one point has always disturbed me : The Prothean VI. I know a lot of things have been said about (non reliability, Shep was just on the beginn of the Indoctrination Process and so on...), not convincing me tough...

Further more the VI on Thessia said something about the cycles, supposing that the Reapers themselves were not the mastermind in this story and controlled by a superior power, which could be a hint or an introduction to the Starbrat...

If the IT was true, it would have been revealed to the player, JUST AFTER he made his blue/green/red choice, even in a panel a la DAO... Not one day, two weeks or three months later...
Such a twist-ending needs to be revealed, as the player is still at the apex of tension, otherwise the effect is gone...
Why would have Bioware waited so long before confirming or dismissing the IT and risking such a backlash ?

It would be as if in "The Usual Suspects", we see K. Spacey/ Keyser Söze getting out of the police station, still limping, and then would get a black screen with the credits... Later we learn by rumors and without seeing it that, he actually walks like you and me and that he's the bad guy... And Bryan Singer refuses to confirm or dismiss this rumor... Doesn't make sense...

By the way the logic of the Starbrat is all but..logical and clear... It's freaking metaphysical space-magic... I'll never buy the "Synthetics will always kill the organics, blablabla..."
The end of ME3 ist still one of the most preposterous/incoherent/rushed endings I've ever seen... It's absolutely clear that Bioware ran out of time or was too lazy... But I won't grasp at straws and I would advice the IT Fans to do samewise, because it will hurt pretty much when the DLC Extended Cut comes out....

Very true, I didn't even think about that, thank you:)

[majinbuu1307]

Iconoclaste wrote...

So, what's up now?

Nothing much:P

[majinbuu1307]

it's been over a week soooo, bump lol