448 réponses à ce sujet

[majinbuu1307]

KevShep wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Here's some good questions. Can Shepard get indoctrinated? Can Reaper tech affect Shepard's mind? Not going to answer these. I am just going to let all of you do that.

Yes...When that reaper on earth makes that sound that they make the kid looks RIGHT at Shepard as if he is telling him something.

Or you know, that sound was from all the reapers that just landed.

[Iconoclaste]

KevShep wrote...

Thats not the evidence I am backing, That is only the speculation to that evidence that Iam backing. Stop trying to pick apart everything I say and start looking at my MAIN POINTS!

Don't expect me to see anything else than what you write here. I will not jump to conclusions without something more solid than speculation, and you know no one of any intelligence would do so. I read and reviewed, and I looked at the other "theories" too, without any prior opinion. What gains my attention has to be related to the game content, and not just lackluster textures, bad animations or easy sound effects. The fact may very well be that the devs never even thought that some players would go into such lenghts and details to put together some decent way to patch their bad rushed work. To see these same players now putting this bad rushed work into a "genius' devs masterpiece of intelligence" melting pot including the very basic defects of levelmaking is mostly unimpressive.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 13 avril 2012 - 03:16 .

[Subguy614]

What everyone attempting to dismiss IT is forgetting is:

Giana Parisinni. No ME game is finished if she hasn't appeared in it. QED ME3 isn't finished.

[macrocarl]

I've posted a lot but that doesn't mean any one read my posts previously. Shep could be still on the Citadel. In fact most of what Shep saw may have happened. But how Shep perceived the events may have been effected by IT (or IDT).
Meaning that yes, he was on the Citadel, yes he saw TIM and Anderson get killed, yes he saw Starkid (secretly Harby though.....maybe and yes he destroyed, merged, controlled the Reapers........) but saw everything happen differently because he was *also* living the effects of indoc.
If BW's extended cut actually does what I think it will, it will be open enough to still be sen as IT, literal and theories in between. If we get a prologue with what happens to everyone then wouldn't IT's theory still be supported if it's all a dream? As in it's an extended, more fleshed out dream? Yet, if you do not support IT, then you get to see a closure and your literal read is supported. This will actually feed both 'camps' and stay brilliant me thinks.
Sorry if my thoughts are jumbled, I am drinking wine.

[Iconoclaste]

macrocarl wrote...

I've posted a lot but that doesn't mean any one read my posts previously. Shep could be still on the Citadel. In fact most of what Shep saw may have happened. But how Shep perceived the events may have been effected by IT (or IDT).
Meaning that yes, he was on the Citadel, yes he saw TIM and Anderson get killed, yes he saw Starkid (secretly Harby though.....maybe and yes he destroyed, merged, controlled the Reapers........) but saw everything happen differently because he was *also* living the effects of indoc.
If BW's extended cut actually does what I think it will, it will be open enough to still be sen as IT, literal and theories in between. If we get a prologue with what happens to everyone then wouldn't IT's theory still be supported if it's all a dream? As in it's an extended, more fleshed out dream? Yet, if you do not support IT, then you get to see a closure and your literal read is supported. This will actually feed both 'camps' and stay brilliant me thinks.
Sorry if my thoughts are jumbled, I am drinking wine.

That is exactly my point.

[Erield]

Gallifreya wrote...
Why are IT naysayers so virulent and pissy?"

then a few posts later:

Yup. And then they laughed it up. Sheeple.

Seems like you're being as negative and "pissy" as the IT nay-sayers.

Back on-topic...

My understanding of IT (which is, by your own words that I snipped out, a bit of a moving target; that's cool, btw, I understand, I just don't keep up with what the latest iteration is saying) is that, basically, the entirety of Shep's experience on the Citadel is him fighting against being indoctrinated.  This specifically includes the conversation with TIM and the Star Child. 

You can die against TIM.  Don't save Anderson, and don't have enough paragon/renegade or whatever to convince him to kill himself, and TIM kills you..  Game over.  Reapers win, because they indoctrinated you, right?

How come you don't get a "Game over" screen if you choose Control or Synthesis?  It's still the exact same premise of the Reapers successfully indoctrinating Shep, right?

If Destroy is the choice that rejects Reaper Indoctrination, then how come at low EMS destroy is the only option (depending on your choice at the end of ME2)?  Why would the only option presented by the Reapers be the one to reject their indoctrination? 

Why are the endings virtually identical, regardless of what you pick, if IT is true?  What is the point of seeing the cut scenes of **** that didn't happen?  How does that make any kind of storytelling sense?

[balance5050]

majinbuu1307 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

And what if Bioware just picks it up and makes it his own AFTER the fact?

Fact: They were still playing with the idea of an indoctrinated shepard in Novemeber, two months before the game went gold. They wouldn't be taking the idea because it was their's to begin with.

They where also playing around with the Dark Energy ending, things change.

They dropped that ending half way through ME2's Development. The arrival DLC revolves around indoctrination for a reason.

[DJBare]

I only have one problem with indoc, the breath scene, what's the point?, this game set as a trilogy, this is the "last" in the trilogy, count em, ME1, ME2, ME3, "trilogy"; the only thing at this point that would make any sense is ME3 PART 2.

[balance5050]

DJBare wrote...

I only have one problem with indoc, the breath scene, what's the point?, this game set as a trilogy, this is the "last" in the trilogy, count em, ME1, ME2, ME3, "trilogy"; the only thing at this point that would make any sense is ME3 PART 2.

Mass Effect Games aren't really "complete" without their respective DLC. "Bring down the sky", "Lair of the Shadow broker", and "The Arrival" all continue the narrative PAST what's on the disc. 

[Iconoclaste]

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I only have one problem with indoc, the breath scene, what's the point?, this game set as a trilogy, this is the "last" in the trilogy, count em, ME1, ME2, ME3, "trilogy"; the only thing at this point that would make any sense is ME3 PART 2.

Mass Effect Games aren't really "complete" without their respective DLC. "Bring down the sky", "Lair of the Shadow broker", and "The Arrival" all continue the narrative PAST what's on the disc.

Agreed. But they don't retroactively "change" the previous content.

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I only have one problem with indoc, the breath scene, what's the point?, this game set as a trilogy, this is the "last" in the trilogy, count em, ME1, ME2, ME3, "trilogy"; the only thing at this point that would make any sense is ME3 PART 2.

Mass Effect Games aren't really "complete" without their respective DLC. "Bring down the sky", "Lair of the Shadow broker", and "The Arrival" all continue the narrative PAST what's on the disc.

Agreed. But they don't retroactively "change" the previous content.

Never said they did, they said are "extending" the content;)

Modifié par balance5050, 13 avril 2012 - 03:25 .

[dakka dakka]

majinbuu1307 wrote...

III Achilles II wrote...

Let's just break this down.

Game ending- a point in the story where the narrative concludes

ME3 was promised to be an extremely amazing ending. The fight up the citadel is extremely awesome and so is the "Goodbye" to the crew.

You are hung up on the fact that DLC or ME4 is not an option and that's where your logic seems to bind you in your little box.

Think outside the box.

1. You are right. Reapers are still alive.
2. That means Truth DLC or ME4 will come next. Finish fight against Reapers and Collector's.


Regarding the Bioware quotes:
1. People are twisting their words.
2. If you told your gf you never wanted to get married, would you then tell her you wanted to get married before getting engaged or would you SUPRISE her with an engagement.
3. We are talking about Bioware who killed off their main character in the beginning of ME2. They've done some pretty crazy crap.
4. Many in-game items point to Indoc.
5. Bioware has had many opp. to deny Indoc.
6. Jessica has seen new content and has created a Indoc playthrough.
7. IT'S A THEORY. It's a discussion of the game. Not grasping at straws. My proof is ME1 and ME2. The writers are not idiots and I give them more credit to create such an intricate ending.
8. If you know what the ending DLC is then please post it for everyone. Otherwise, NO ONE but BIOWARE knows what the ending DLC is. IF INDOC WAS INTENDED, then they will lay it all out for people who do not understand.
9. There could be more DLC on the way. MP DLC came out this past week and they only announced it 5 days before it came out.

Let me stop you at ME4. If there is a ME4, was it not confirmed that any further mass effect games, would either not take place after 3, but before or during, and not be Shepards story.
Now, if Shepard is alive, and the reapers are still alive, ME4 would very much still be Shepards problem. 
Case closed right there.

You are wrong in assuming that if the Reapers are still alive in this hypothetical ME4 that they would still be Shepards problem. He did his part in the war effort, he united the galaxy in fighting the Reapers. it is now up to the galaxy to not let Shepard down.

Not saying IT is true or false, I want it to be, but so far it seems unlikely.

[Darth_Trethon]

DJBare wrote...

I only have one problem with indoc, the breath scene, what's the point?, this game set as a trilogy, this is the "last" in the trilogy, count em, ME1, ME2, ME3, "trilogy"; the only thing at this point that would make any sense is ME3 PART 2.

You're making no sense at all....why could it not be a trilogy and just leave Shepard live his/her life in peace? That would make perfect sense to me......from your logic it sounds like you think that people should die when they live the military....if you stay in for 20 years and join at 18 you are eligible for retirement at 38.....should these people just be shot in the head or something? Seriously.....start making some tiny bit of sense.

From the IT perspective the reapers have been destroyed and shep is alive....what's wrong with that?

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 13 avril 2012 - 03:28 .

[KevShep]

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thats not the evidence I am backing, That is only the speculation to that evidence that Iam backing. Stop trying to pick apart everything I say and start looking at my MAIN POINTS!

Don't expect me to see anything else than what you write here. I will not jump to conclusions without something more solid than speculation, and you know no one of any intelligence would do so. I read and reviewed, and I looked at the other "theories" too, without any prior opinion. What gains my attention has to be related to the game content, and not just lackluster textures, bad animations or easy sound effects. The fact may very well be that the devs never even thought that some players would go into such lenghts and details to put together some decent way to patch their bad rushed work. To see these same players now putting this bad rushed work into a "genius' devs masterpiece of intelligence" melting pot including the very basic defects of levelmaking is mostly unimpressive.

Fact 1) Catalyst voice...IS...Shepards in the back ground!
Fact2) The bricks around shepard are GRAY (like the ones in London).
Fact3) Shepard is NOT on the citadel when He/She takes a breath because the citadel is powered by Reaper tech and is destroyed in the destroy option so hes/she is breathing in a vaccume with no hemlet.
Fact4) Shepard is dreaming in alot of the game. The last 10 minutes are out of place(like a dream)!
Fact5) Everything revolves around the "kid" and for an unknown reason( and here is the something you overlooked)  and unexplaned reason the "kid" looks like the ones from his/her dreams!

[Darth_Trethon]

KevShep wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thats not the evidence I am backing, That is only the speculation to that evidence that Iam backing. Stop trying to pick apart everything I say and start looking at my MAIN POINTS!

Don't expect me to see anything else than what you write here. I will not jump to conclusions without something more solid than speculation, and you know no one of any intelligence would do so. I read and reviewed, and I looked at the other "theories" too, without any prior opinion. What gains my attention has to be related to the game content, and not just lackluster textures, bad animations or easy sound effects. The fact may very well be that the devs never even thought that some players would go into such lenghts and details to put together some decent way to patch their bad rushed work. To see these same players now putting this bad rushed work into a "genius' devs masterpiece of intelligence" melting pot including the very basic defects of levelmaking is mostly unimpressive.

Fact 1) Catalyst voice...IS...Shepards in the back ground!
Fact2) The bricks around shepard are GRAY (like the ones in London).
Fact3) Shepard is NOT on the citadel when He/She takes a breath because the citadel is powered by Reaper tech and is destroyed in the destroy option so hes/she is breathing in a vaccume with no hemlet.
Fact4) Shepard is dreaming in alot of the game. The last 10 minutes are out of place(like a dream)!
Fact5) Everything revolves around the "kid" and for an unknown reason( and here is the something you overlooked)  and unexplaned reason the "kid" looks like the ones from his/her dreams!

Don't waste your time....if he was willing to listen to logic this thread wouldn't exist.

[Iconoclaste]

Erield wrote...

You can die against TIM.  Don't save Anderson, and don't have enough paragon/renegade or whatever to convince him to kill himself, and TIM kills you..  Game over.  Reapers win, because they indoctrinated you, right?

Hell, I didn't even know that! I have to go through another straining playthru of this slo-mo endgame...

Erield wrote...

Why are the endings virtually identical, regardless of what you pick, if IT is true?  What is the point of seeing the cut scenes of **** that didn't happen?  How does that make any kind of storytelling sense?

For anyone not into IT, not a penny of sense. That's why the whole "dreamed sequence" is hard to swallow as it is proposed. I wouldn't mind for myself, but I sure bet my qwerty that many players wouldn't appreciate. This, and mostly this, could be a valid turnpoint for Bioware's decision. It doesn't rule out IT entirely, but some of the "extreme" parts of it. Shep can still be half-puppet in the whole ending sequence, but not sleeping safely besides Harby's big paws while the war is raging around.

[Iconoclaste]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I only have one problem with indoc, the breath scene, what's the point?, this game set as a trilogy, this is the "last" in the trilogy, count em, ME1, ME2, ME3, "trilogy"; the only thing at this point that would make any sense is ME3 PART 2.

You're making no sense at all....why could it not be a trilogy and just leave Shepard live his/her life in peace? That would make perfect sense to me......from your logic it sounds like you think that people should die when they live the military....if you stay in for 20 years and join at 18 you are eligible for retirement at 38.....should these people just be shot in the head or something? Seriously.....start making some tiny bit of sense.

From the IT perspective the reapers have been destroyed and shep is alive....what's wrong with that?

Even without IT, Shepard lives after the Destroy ending. Even IT recognizes the "breathing scene", so why a "plain kill switch ending" that has the same cutscene at the end wouldn't let Shepard live?

Beware of the use of "Yes, but the red blast toasted him, so how could he...". There is no proof of that, and enough evidence to show that Shepard lived through the 1st blast.

[GnusmasTHX]

It was never ever confirmed that there would be no post-ME3 ME games.

The only thing confirmed was that ME3 would conclude Shepard's story.

[Iconoclaste]

Doubledouble...

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 13 avril 2012 - 03:44 .

[Iconoclaste]

DevShep wrote...

Fact 1) Catalyst voice...IS...Shepards in the back ground!
Fact2) The bricks around shepard are GRAY (like the ones in London).
Fact3) Shepard is NOT on the citadel when He/She takes a breath because the citadel is powered by Reaper tech and is destroyed in the destroy option so hes/she is breathing in a vaccume with no hemlet.
Fact4) Shepard is dreaming in alot of the game. The last 10 minutes are out of place(like a dream)!
Fact5) Everything revolves around the "kid" and for an unknown reason( and here is the something you overlooked)  and unexplaned reason the "kid" looks like the ones from his/her dreams!

Just describe the "Red explosions" from when Shepard shoots at the red conduit, to the moment we see the Citadel's arms drifting apart. We will see if you are "paying attention".

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 13 avril 2012 - 03:43 .

[DJBare]

Darth_Trethon wrote...
You're making no sense at all....why could it not be a trilogy and just leave Shepard live his/her life in peace? That would make perfect sense to me......from your logic it sounds like you think that people should die when they live the military....if you stay in for 20 years and join at 18 you are eligible for retirement at 38.....should these people just be shot in the head or something? Seriously.....start making some tiny bit of sense.

From the IT perspective the reapers have been destroyed and shep is alive....what's wrong with that?

Hey, if you are happy with a single breath scene on an unidentified body as an ending, more power to you.

[Galifreya]

majinbuu1307 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

And what if Bioware just picks it up and makes it his own AFTER the fact?

Fact: They were still playing with the idea of an indoctrinated shepard in Novemeber, two months before the game went gold. They wouldn't be taking the idea because it was their's to begin with.

They where also playing around with the Dark Energy ending, things change.

Yes. Things change. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[macrocarl]

Also one thing to note, the whole thing ends up being told by some old dude named 'Stargazer', who states that the story is really old....... As in a different cycle that's not the one Shep is in (again, maybe) So if the old man is seen as unreliable as a story teller (he's telling it to some kid, so maybe some stuff is made up) then it's totally possible that any future games are set in the future and anything seen as 'retcon' are tales mis-remembered. So the ending may also be interpreted as grampa crazy stories. It's another super thin theory (I think IT is super strong IMHO) but it's in game. Also it conveniently doesn't get in the way of either taking the end as literal or IT.

edit: still drinking wine:wizard:

Modifié par macrocarl, 13 avril 2012 - 03:45 .

[Erield]

KevShep wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Thats not the evidence I am backing, That is only the speculation to that evidence that Iam backing. Stop trying to pick apart everything I say and start looking at my MAIN POINTS!

Don't expect me to see anything else than what you write here. I will not jump to conclusions without something more solid than speculation, and you know no one of any intelligence would do so. I read and reviewed, and I looked at the other "theories" too, without any prior opinion. What gains my attention has to be related to the game content, and not just lackluster textures, bad animations or easy sound effects. The fact may very well be that the devs never even thought that some players would go into such lenghts and details to put together some decent way to patch their bad rushed work. To see these same players now putting this bad rushed work into a "genius' devs masterpiece of intelligence" melting pot including the very basic defects of levelmaking is mostly unimpressive.

Fact 1) Catalyst voice...IS...Shepards in the back ground!
Fact2) The bricks around shepard are GRAY (like the ones in London).
Fact3) Shepard is NOT on the citadel when He/She takes a breath because the citadel is powered by Reaper tech and is destroyed in the destroy option so hes/she is breathing in a vaccume with no hemlet.
Fact4) Shepard is dreaming in alot of the game. The last 10 minutes are out of place(like a dream)!
Fact5) Everything revolves around the "kid" and for an unknown reason( and here is the something you overlooked)  and unexplaned reason the "kid" looks like the ones from his/her dreams!

Fact 1) is a fact.  Well, the echoey parts are Shepard's voice in the background; the kid's voice is also still the kid's voice.

Fact 2) is a fact (I guess.  I'm just assuming there are gray bricks in London).  Just FYI, though, gray bricks can exist in many places.  who knows what the bottom of the floor in the Citadel looks like?  I know that I've seen a few pics and videos of a guy floating around the Citadel freely checkin' **** out that makes a compelling argument for the possibility (oh God!  Isn't that what IT is about? Possibilities?!) that it's from the Citadel, not London

Fact 3) is not a fact.  This is, in fact, you assuming that Shep is not on the Citadel.  Also, how was the Citadel destroyed while Shep was fighting off indoctrination?  I'm...just curious there.  My understanding is that it was all in his head?

Fact 4) Shepard does not spend a lot of the game dreaming.  There are three dream-sequences; none of them are long.  The last 10 minutes are out of place, but, so was the entirety of both missions on Earth.  This does not mean that either one of them was a dream.  The Citadel aspect being terrible does not mean it was a dream.

Fact 5) Everything does notrevolve around the "kid."  There's the kid in Shep's dreams, which is an obvious stand-in for Shepard's guilt of abandoning Earth.  If everything revolved around the kid, he'd have more than 15 minutes of screen-time throughout the game.  This "fact" of yours is harder to refute than the others because I have no idea what you're actually trying to say here.

Here's a new fact for you, though: The ending is disjointed and does not flow naturally from all that came before it.  It seems horribly out of place in the rest of the game, and the rest of the series.  Does it make more sense to assume that the last 10-15 minutes being disjointed and out of place is done, on purpose, to make the player aware of just how out of place everything is, so that they can go back and pick up on subtle clues cleverly hidden throughout the game that are hiding a secret message that actually changes everything?!? OMG OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!!!!!

OR, does it make more sense that someone, or a small group of people, just ****ed up, hard, and didn't realize how bad it was due to confirmation bias?

[Galifreya]

Erield wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...
Why are IT naysayers so virulent and pissy?"

then a few posts later:

Yup. And then they laughed it up. Sheeple.

Seems like you're being as negative and "pissy" as the IT nay-sayers.

Back on-topic...

My understanding of IT (which is, by your own words that I snipped out, a bit of a moving target; that's cool, btw, I understand, I just don't keep up with what the latest iteration is saying) is that, basically, the entirety of Shep's experience on the Citadel is him fighting against being indoctrinated.  This specifically includes the conversation with TIM and the Star Child. 

You can die against TIM.  Don't save Anderson, and don't have enough paragon/renegade or whatever to convince him to kill himself, and TIM kills you..  Game over.  Reapers win, because they indoctrinated you, right?

How come you don't get a "Game over" screen if you choose Control or Synthesis?  It's still the exact same premise of the Reapers successfully indoctrinating Shep, right?

If Destroy is the choice that rejects Reaper Indoctrination, then how come at low EMS destroy is the only option (depending on your choice at the end of ME2)?  Why would the only option presented by the Reapers be the one to reject their indoctrination? 

Why are the endings virtually identical, regardless of what you pick, if IT is true?  What is the point of seeing the cut scenes of **** that didn't happen?  How does that make any kind of storytelling sense?

Patience only goes so far. Mine is wearing thin this evening.

And when Destroy is the only option,  it's because you have a low EMS. The Reapers don't want/need to control a slackass Shepard, because the forces Shepard brought to the final confrontaion can't defeat the Reapers. There aren't enough of the assets present.

Modifié par Gallifreya, 13 avril 2012 - 03:51 .