74 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

IT fans can then simply not download the DLC if it doesn't support IT. Of course, that means they don't get an actual ending except as fanfic, but if you're an IT fan you probably prefer fanfic to the official endings anyway.

I guess that's true, but I was operating under the assumption that most fans wanted Bioware to acknowledge the theory. Even amongst its proponents, I feel like the IT theory loses its edge/appeal when you consider that it means that Shepard hasn't actually dealt with the Reapers.

[Doctor Uburian]

The PLC wrote...

" The human mind is much more complex than most people think, and a psychological horror or depression can be started by lots of ways" .... IT'S A DAMN VIDEOGAME.

If you can get over it, great for you. But lot of persons can't.

Yesterday, a man died in my country because of a simple football match confrontation. It was a simple football match, yes, but now he's dead.

Even the smallest things can change the world, and we fight for the hope that a good game ending provides, not for the game in self.

[evisneffo]

I'm all for you guys having the right to believe in the indoctrination theory, but if you're making a serious plea here this is really a pretty ridiculous thing to say.

[Doctor Uburian]

The PLC wrote...

Wow.... just wow. People fighting because of a sport are just as dumb as hell, so what are you trying to say with that post?!

I'm trying to explain that everything is part of a global equation. Fighting for the ending of a video game can look dumb, but people fight for what it's important for them. In this case, they are fighting for the sense of hope that a bright and happy ending could provide, and they need that hope to feel alive.

If you just left them with a meaningless and useless depressive ending, that will be reflected on their real lives. They will suffer for no reason, because those characters for wich they cared about died in an useless way, and due to the empathy they fell exactly the same than those characters, a hopeless depresion.

Of course it's just a video game, but we keep going every day thanks to those kind of things.

[OdanUrr]

Bluko wrote...

Look this is getting a little bit silly. I don't know why you guys haven't come out about it yet. I'm assuming it's a combination of not wanting to spoil the "surprise" and that you likely have some trepidation to how people will still react to it. I mean yes I can see why you are doing this... but I don't think it is particularily wise.

Yes, it could be that, then again it could be that there isn't any surprise whatsoever. Do you honestly think that if IT were true, Bioware would wait months on end to reveal it? Didn't I read posts the very same launch week or the week after where people claimed Bioware would reveal IT within the week and that they would laugh at the unbelievers?

Bluko wrote... 

First of all by perpetuating the idea the endings are final you are breeding a ton of hate for the game, Bioware, and EA. I cannot understand how you think this will simply go away. It isn't. The longer you let people stew in hatred about things the more bitter and unreasonable they will become. They may eventually shut up, but the resentment will still be there. Every day you wait dozens if not hundreds of more people are joining into the collective disappointment. You are making this situation really bad for yourselves. Even if you release an amazing new ending that's everything anyone could possibly want... there's still going to resentment over the fact you mislead many for weeks or months.

A lot of people are fine with the endings as they are. A friend of mine just finished playing ME3 and told me he didn't understand all this fuss about the endings. For him, the endings were open-ended enough to fill in the blanks.

Again, they're not going to release a new ending. Where were you when they said they would stand by the team's artistic vision and that they would expand on the current endings to provide closure and personalization? And what "misleading" are we talking about exactly? They've "misled" us about a lot of things, but I want specifics.

Bluko wrote... 

I implore you to cease this whole "speculation" charade. Reality is a lot of people have turned away from the series and maybe even gone so far as to go back and sell their games. You can't just expect everyone to have blind faith in you. People did not Pre-Order ME3 in large numbers because they had faith in Bioware. They did it because the first two games were great so they assumed ME3 would be as well. But now you have seemingly destroyed much of that confidence. It's not an understatemtn to say the entire series is kind of jeopardy. Unfortunately your idea of a twist ending did not work so well as a lot of people aren't even aware of it. Only your most dedicated fans are going to be figure this out. And that's great for us, but it's not so great for the more casual players. Truthfully you should have just admitted this in full last week either in your announcement or at PAX.

No, I want more speculation from everyone! Seriously now, people are selling their copies of ME1 and ME2 just because they didn't like the ending to ME3? That's a bit radical, isn't it? Whatever, let's go to the "twist ending" and "dedicated fans" bit. Are we really going to start the whole "true fan" debate again?

So, what you're saying is, if I don't believe IT, then I'm a "casual" player, right? Sure, I invested hundreds of hours playing ME1, ME2, and ME3, but I'm probably just a "casual" player that won't understand the complexities of indoctrination. That was sarcasm, by the way. And what about new players? Wasn't this supposed to be the "natural entry point" to the franchise? In an already complex (hey, it's complex for newcomers) story as is Mass Effect, are you really expecting new players to "figure out" indoctrination? When ME3 was specifically crafted so as not to alienate these new players but rather embrace them?

Mass Effect is not a detective story. If we're meant to "figure out" stuff, there has to be enough foreshadowing so that everyone will understand they need to start looking for clues. People only started looking for clues to IT after they chose to believe the endings weren't (or couldn't, rather) real. That's like choosing to believe Mr. X was murdered by Mr. Y and then setting about proving Mr. Y guilty. That's not how you go about solving a murder case.

Bluko wrote... 

I understand some people are not going to be happy. But if you come out now and admit to it you can at least start the healing process. Folks are going to need time to get used to the idea, especially since a few are rather staunch on supporting the endings as they are. Also by letting people "speculate" you are probably causing them to raise their expectations to be even more absurd. Which means if someone doesn't get the exact ending they want they will probably come back and bite you even harder for "tricking them". Also you probably want news of this to spread. Right now the only news that is spreading is the endings suck and Bioware isn't really doing anything about it. This wouldn't be happening if you stopped the vague PR and just actually told us what you were planning. Your whole handling of this situation is laughable and likely going to be the textbook example of bad PR.

What? Come out and admit what? That IT is real? That if people like the current endings, they're morons? What is going on here? How did we come to this? Why is it so hard to understand that Bioware had no master plan for the endings, that only now are they addressing this "issue" (which they didn't think would be an issue at all), and that releasing the Extended Cut DLC takes time? Releasing a free DLC that provides more closure and personalization is doing nothing? Hardly. It may not be what you want, but there's a big difference between that and doing nothing.

Bluko wrote... 

And if by some odd 1% chance Indoctrination Theory isn't true. Then you really ought to put the poor creature out of it's misery before it loses all sense and attacks you to. Again any actual confirmation is better then none.

What does that even mean? So the bottomline is, "Bioware, this is an ultimatum, release a statement declaring IT to be true or be prepared to face the consequences"? Look, I know a lot of people are invested in IT but this is dangerously approaching the realm of zealotry, which is never a good thing. Can't we just politely suggest what we'd like to see addressed in this DLC and wait for it to come out? Then we can judge.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 13 avril 2012 - 12:03 .

[Cazlee]

Bioware should have nipped IT in the bud right away by saying "the ending was not a dream"
That doesn't mean the entire theory is wrong, the rest of the theory has merit.

Instead they (i blame Merizan) made things extremely worse for Bioware by perpetuating and popularizing this extremely destructive theory.

A LOT of the backlash that they are getting from their extended cut announcement are from people that wanted a redo of the endings? Why? because of IT.

Modifié par Cazlee, 13 avril 2012 - 12:12 .

[OdanUrr]

Cazlee wrote...

Bioware should have nipped IT in the bud right away by saying "the ending was not a dream"

And a lot of people would have argued that indoctrination is not a "dream," hence Bioware wouldn't really have disproved anything.

[Cazlee]

OdanUrr wrote...
And a lot of people would have argued that indoctrination is not a "dream," hence Bioware wouldn't really have disproved anything.

The statement is not supposed to disprove the entire theory. Did you read my second sentence?

Modifié par Cazlee, 13 avril 2012 - 12:20 .

[OdanUrr]

Cazlee wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...
And a lot of people would have argued that indoctrination is not a "dream," hence Bioware wouldn't really have disproved anything.

The statement is not supposed to disprove the entire theory. Did you read my second sentence?

Yes, I'm just not sure what you want to keep and discard of the theory.

[Cazlee]

OdanUrr wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...
And a lot of people would have argued that indoctrination is not a "dream," hence Bioware wouldn't really have disproved anything.

The statement is not supposed to disprove the entire theory. Did you read my second sentence?

Yes, I'm just not sure what you want to keep and discard of the theory.

"Indoctrination Theory" is really a misnomer, it should be called "Hallucination Theory"

It was started because in the high EMS red ending it looked like Shepard awakes in London instead of on the citadel. So began the speculation that Shepard actually just dreamt everything after the beam. Why? The reasoning became that the dream itself was an attempt at indoctrination.

Now, the child could very well be tricking Shepard in an attempt to indoctrinate him - so the indoctrination part of the theory could in fact be true without "everything after the beam was a dream" being true.


"Anderson's heartfelt scene didn't happen. TIM's moment of realization didn't happen. The citadel arms never opened. The crucible was never activated. The reapers weren't defeated. The ending never happened..." This part of the theory rejects the ending and has been very destructive to both Bioware and the fanbase that believed in it.

Modifié par Cazlee, 13 avril 2012 - 12:45 .

[therussianviking]

Good topic OP. Whether or not it's true, somebody needs to give us a straight answer.

[OdanUrr]

Cazlee wrote...

"Indoctrination Theory" is really a misnomer, it should be called "Hallucination Theory"

It was started because in the high EMS red ending it looked like Shepard awakes in London instead of on the citadel. So began the speculation that Shepard actually just dreamt everything after the beam. Why? The reasoning became that the dream itself was an attempt at indoctrination.

Now, the child could very well be tricking Shepard in an attempt to indoctrinate him - so the indoctrination part of the theory could in fact be true without "everything after the beam was a dream" being true.


"Anderson's heartfelt scene didn't happen. TIM's moment of realization didn't happen. The citadel arms never opened. The crucible was never activated. The reapers weren't defeated. The ending never happened..." This part of the theory rejects the ending and has been very destructive to both Bioware and the fanbase that believed in it.

I'm guessing you just want to ditch the Catalyst, right?

[Oldbones2]

Guys IT, isn't true, but BW will never fully deny it because A) it makes you happy and it keeps you relatively happy with the ending.

If IT was true it would have been released by now.

Also Dridengx, you spend WAY too much time on these forums to call out anyone else about being to invested in a video game. Troll smarter, not harder.

[Wise Men]

No.  I like the fact that there is no confirmation.  This is what makes it so interesting for me. 

[Arkitekt]

Someone here is seriously confusing "not impossible" with "most likely", which is beginning to look seriously dumb after so many weeks of discussion over that so called "theory".

[CARL_DF90]

As much as I support the idea of the I.T. (plenty of evidence supports it) continuing to discuss it is a moot point until Bioware shows something, and if I had to guess that might be another month 1/2.

[Rynocerous]

Bluko wrote...

And if by some odd 1% chance Indoctrination Theory isn't true. Then you really ought to put the poor creature out of it's misery before it loses all sense and attacks you to. Again any actual confirmation is better then none.

Amusing.

Given slapdash production values, glaring plot holes, bad PC graphics issues, a broken face import, blatant lies about endings and their achievability, a money-based multiplayer tacked on, a broken writing team, and a game that trivilizes an journey of pain, loss, hope, suffering, and triumph into a series of freaking FETCH quests, which is more likely:

1) IT theory is the truth and Bioware / EA is wiling to let their stock, sales, and reputation be savaged over it, denying it repeatedly so they can give away a free DLC and make zero profit or

2) IT theory is the lovingly crafted (and brilliant) speculation of a legion of fans this company does not deserve to patch holes left in a rushed, sloppy ending that will be all patched up by the free DLC they were guilt-tripped into providing.

I think when the DLC comes out, the way it will "fil in the gaps" will not leave any thing to hinge the basis of the IT theory on. I respect your opinion. But there is rarely if ever a time where incompetance is less likely than some sort of bizzare hidden plan when it comes to ramshackle mess like this.

I swear, if I had cut the game off right after Anderson passed away and pretended Shepard died right there I'd be a lot happier.

[Bluko]

OdanUrr wrote...
Yes, it could be that, then again it could be that there isn't any surprise whatsoever. Do you honestly think that if IT were true, Bioware would wait months on end to reveal it? Didn't I read posts the very same launch week or the week after where people claimed Bioware would reveal IT within the week and that they would laugh at the unbelievers?

Yes. Though I'd rather they stop stalling.

OdanUrr wrote... 
A lot of people are fine with the endings as they are. A friend of mine just finished playing ME3 and told me he didn't understand all this fuss about the endings. For him, the endings were open-ended enough to fill in the blanks.

I know that. That's why I believe it's even more important to be upfront with this. It's kind of messed up to either let people believe the endings are real or they may be fake. I don't think people appreciate finding out they were mislead or that they guessed wrong. Especially when it hasn't been made clear whether we should "speculate" or not.

OdanUrr wrote...
What does that even mean? So the bottomline is, "Bioware, this is an ultimatum, release a statement declaring IT to be true or be prepared to face the consequences"? Look, I know a lot of people are invested in IT but this is dangerously approaching the realm of zealotry, which is never a good thing. Can't we just politely suggest what we'd like to see addressed in this DLC and wait for it to come out? Then we can judge.

What I was trying to imply is some people may not like being mislead. Thus they may be harder to have civil discussion with. Whichever group it may be people aren't going to happy. I'm not threatening Bioware. Did I not just say prior  that I wanted to know the truth so I can actually know if there's a reason for me to hang onto my games? If IT isn't true then fine I move on. Simple. If there is some truth I hang onto them and hope for something better. That's not really a threat.

I don't see it as being particularily unreasonable to ask for clear lines of communication either. I mean really if you have no intention of having actual conversation why bother to set up a forum in the first place? Granted I realize the Developers are busy. But you'd be surprised how a few genuine sentences can help end many of the pointless debates and hysteria.

[Bluko]

Rynocerous wrote...
1) IT theory is the truth and Bioware / EA is wiling to let their stock, sales, and reputation be savaged over it, denying it repeatedly so they can give away a free DLC and make zero profit or

I don't think they expected this kind of backlash. I think they thought majority would just be placid about the ending. And the the "dedicated" fans would figure it out.  Sometimes when you sit in a high place it's difficult to comprehend how someone in the valley may not share your grand view.

Rynocerous wrote... 
2) IT theory is the lovingly crafted (and brilliant) speculation of a legion of fans this company does not deserve to patch holes left in a rushed, sloppy ending that will be all patched up by the free DLC they were guilt-tripped into providing.

I have a hard time believing IT is something fans cooked up their own. As bright or as dense as some individuals may be it's an awfully big conclusion to jump to without any help to get the ball rolling. To me there is an undeniably large amount of evidence for it. I was pretty skeptical about it at first. It's basically taken me a few weeks to approve the idea. But I feel I can safely with the investigation I've done into the matter it must be true or at least was intended to be at some point in development. Perhaps that has changed in response to feedback.

[CARL_DF90]

Rynocerous wrote...

Bluko wrote...

And if by some odd 1% chance Indoctrination Theory isn't true. Then you really ought to put the poor creature out of it's misery before it loses all sense and attacks you to. Again any actual confirmation is better then none.

Amusing.

Given slapdash production values, glaring plot holes, bad PC graphics issues, a broken face import, blatant lies about endings and their achievability, a money-based multiplayer tacked on, a broken writing team, and a game that trivilizes an journey of pain, loss, hope, suffering, and triumph into a series of freaking FETCH quests, which is more likely:

1) IT theory is the truth and Bioware / EA is wiling to let their stock, sales, and reputation be savaged over it, denying it repeatedly so they can give away a free DLC and make zero profit or

2) IT theory is the lovingly crafted (and brilliant) speculation of a legion of fans this company does not deserve to patch holes left in a rushed, sloppy ending that will be all patched up by the free DLC they were guilt-tripped into providing.

I think when the DLC comes out, the way it will "fil in the gaps" will not leave any thing to hinge the basis of the IT theory on. I respect your opinion. But there is rarely if ever a time where incompetance is less likely than some sort of bizzare hidden plan when it comes to ramshackle mess like this.

I swear, if I had cut the game off right after Anderson passed away and pretended Shepard died right there I'd be a lot happier.

I think I love you.

[wolfstanus]

Fans... The worst kind of person...

[Bluko]

Bogsnot wrote...

Its been discounted numerous times, by numerous people, including myself.

You know IT is a lame arsed theory when some of the evidence they present to back up their case is "Earth is upside down".
Come on, you're in a 3 dimensional, gravity free environment. You have 46656000* different viewing angles, and "upside down" is used as evidence?

*That number is based on 360 degrees in a circle, multiplied by itself 3 times to account for 1 degree change in each of the 3 axis.


I started breaking down other peoples arguments for it in another thread. Feel free to defend IT and refute my arguments here.

Sorry but there's much more to dismiss then that. Also never heard issue of the Earth being upside down. Frankly that seems rather unimportant when you are space when you could easily be oriented as "upside down".

Anywho how do you rationalize the ending in which Shepard lives? If you pay attention closely to the cutscene it should simply put be impossible. Unless we're going with the idea that Shepard can live through massive explosions and atmospheric reentry sort stuff. Granted ME2 sort of did this... (I prefer to think Shepard simply went into orbit still) but Shepard was you know at least dead from the experience.

Also I leave you the wise words of Trollbinger himself:
"Synthesis is the final evolution of life. But we need it each other to make it happen."

Well okay one more story about the Shepard.

[CARL_DF90]

@ wolfstanus
An ironic statement my friend, given the number of Bioware titles you've got showing there. 

[Bluko]

wolfstanus wrote...

Fans... The worst kind of person...

Well they are appliances. Don't have much use for them except in summer.