220 réponses à ce sujet

[Brunopolis]

Then it only stands to reason that Rogues and Warriors be combined into one class as well.

I think the big problem with Dragon Age Origins is how Mages and Clerics were combined into one class yet Rogues and Warriors were left apart.  It makes Mages far more multi-purpose because the other two classes really should have been one to begin with.  Also, it's clear this is the case because while Mages have their own completely unique story/skill options Warriors and Rogues tend to share almost ALL of them between each other.

As a side-bonus it would help balance the game as the warrior/rogue combo would probably be as versatile as mages.  Obviously, this cannot be done with this game as it's already been decided but for a sequel it would be an interesting thought.  The other option, splitting mages and clerics into seperate classes, would probably take far more work.

[Eshme]

I dont know what a cleric is, but wiki sais "priest" or "religious" .



In the History of DA, there is only Mages, and the Church is completely opposite of that. The Church has a role btw, with the Templars.

[Sloth Of Doom]

D&D-centric thinking again..

[Brunopolis]

I'm obviously refering to the classical D&D idea of cleric. A healer/buff class. Clerics, from a typical RPG sense, generally have the heal/buff spells while Mages stick with DPS/CC. The problem in this game is that Mages have DPS/CC/Buffs/Heals(tanking as well when in the AW spec). This is too much but it seems the main reason for it being broken is because mages and clerics were combined into one class(from a gameplay perspective) but rogues and warriors were kept seperate.



If you're talking about from an RP point of view then consider this. Rogues and Warriors both are front-line fighters(Duncan was supposedly a rogue yet he definitely wasn't stealthy in any of the story) and there are barely any story specific events for either of them.



It actually makes more sense(rp-wise) for Templars to have their own seperate class than rogues do. Rogues and Warriors share the Dual wielding and Archery line while the mage line shares NOTHING with any of the other classes.



I'm just saying that the game would have been a lot smoother(and more balanced) if rogues and warriors were combined into one class.

[TheNecroFiend]

This is not D&D. There are no gods granting divine powers to mortals. Healing spells are just another form of magic. You can certainly use the gamedesign to recreate a D&D class. But I wouldn't go as far to say they are combined. Since there is no pantheon granting favor. You might aswell be saying Warriors and Rogues are combined since they share the same weapon skills.

[MartinJHolm]

I don't see how it's a problem.

This isn't the same world as previous games.

There appears to be only one deity so you don't have the diversity that you have in D&D.

And you can make a cleric just fine, just make an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer and take healing and buff spells and you shoudl get something like a cleric.

Modifié par MartinJHolm, 05 décembre 2009 - 06:34 .

[Brunopolis]

@Slothofdoom



I wonder why. Maybe because...

1. This game has all the classical components of a D&D game(healing, stealth, dragons, magic, etc)

2. This game is supposedly inspired purely from D&D. The game designers even said this.

3. Because D&D-centric games tend to have some semblance of balance. Something this game lacks to a huge extent.



The NWN series were story-based games but besides a handful of spells/abilities the game was actually somewhat balanced.



Why do people defend such shoddy balance and game design? Seriously. It's mind boggling. People apparantly hate everything WoW or D&D that they refuse to admit that maybe...just maybe they actually did something right.

[CID-78]

really is there any RPG that has clerics that isn't D&D influenced? the few that isn't, priest are simply priests no magic abilities what so ever. just regular healers.



personally i prefer classless systems so i can pick from everything and create a character i want. classes is just forcing a style on you and is really only limiting the system without any real benefits.

[Brunopolis]

Why can't warriors and rogues be one class? Seriously. If a rogue wants to learn to use a shield or a warrior learning to pick locks then why is there some arbitrary rule stopping it.



There are no rules stopping a primal mage from learning say creation magic. Apparantly from an RP perspective they make it seem like Morrigan and Wynn, for example, are very different in regards to the magic they can do. Even in the story it says that those that specialize in primal magic are witches and those that specialize in other schools are different.



At the end of the day mages can jump all over the place and the only reason I suggest warriors and rogues being combined is that they both specialize in similar themes comparatively. They even share half their skills in the game as well. Having rogues and warriors being seperate classes yet ALL mages as one class(they could have easily split them up into blood mages, witches, etc) seems like a rather arbitrary choice. The problem with this choice is that it leads to mages being incredibly multi-purpose and awesome but warriors/rogues far more restricted and, in effect, weaker classes(from both a story and game perspective).

[Eshme]

Im still not sure what you mean. Would you like more backgrounds, origins? You cannot be really a Templar, you can only learn the skills (i think) from one, but the origin is not that of a Templar. Alistair was one thou. Its just a Title.

[orpheus333]

You could combine all classes together completely and call it a RageWar.

edit:It would act very similar to these forums actually.

Modifié par andyr1986, 05 décembre 2009 - 06:59 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

Who said anything about hating D&D? I've been playing it longer than half f the people on these forums have been alive.



My point is that this is -not- a D&D game but people keep applying D&D paradigms to it. "Healing, stealth, dragons, magic, etc" is not unique or even original to D&D. Just because bioware made some D&D based games in the past does not mean that every game they make has to be based on D&D. People come onto these forums almost daily and whine that "This game sucks because in D&D you can do X" or "This game is missing X from D&D" without really thinking about what they are saying.



And after all of your supposition that this game for some reason has hidden its clerics away you go on to compare this game to WoW and D&D. The big difference that you utterly fail to grasp somehow is that both WoW and D&D systems are designed for multiple users, so class balance is an issue in order to make everything 'fair'. DA is a single player game, and balancing classes just doesn't matter as much. Why do you care if a mage can kill your warrior?



Your original idea of mixing rogues and warriors isn't a terribly bad one, but your insistence that this game has merged a class that doesn't exist with mages to make them 'unbalanced' is smacking of typical forum QQ, as is your constant comparison of this game to MP titles which have no bearing whatsoever.

[TheNecroFiend]

In his defence there are people on these forums that try to apply MMO gameplay to DA. Just look at any thread about tanks.

[SolidDuece]

The topic creator makes little to no sense. /Thread

[Rainen89]

How to cleric 3 easy steps



Creation line, Mace shield Arcane Warrior / Spirit healer. Now go out there and spread religion!

[Blue_dodo]

the only thing this game could use is a better archery and a mage/rouge combo



I mean there have arcane warrior why not have someone go back maybe make an arcane archer/trickster, that would be cool



p.s yes I am aware I am using DnD prestige classes however, I am using loosely to describe something that I think would be cool

[FalloutBoy]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

In his defence there are people on these forums that try to apply MMO gameplay to DA. Just look at any thread about tanks.

The usage of tanks, and proper group tactics in general, is not limited to MMO gameplay. It only seems like it because there have recently been so many more single-character RPG's than group RPG's. MMO's might have made terms like DPS and CC popular, but I assure you that people were using those tactics long before MMO's existed.

Back on topic, clerics don't exist in DA. They make no sense. There are no gods and therefore no god-granted powers. In this world, magic is magic, whether it is throwing fireballs or resurrecting people. There is no reason for arbitrarily limiting healers to not being able to cast a fireball, or vice versa, unless you change the lore.

You could make a compelling argument that warriors and rogues should be part of single "Not A Mage" class.

[Seifz]

Brunopolis wrote...

@Slothofdoom

I wonder why. Maybe because...
1. This game has all the classical components of a D&D game(healing, stealth, dragons, magic, etc)
2. This game is supposedly inspired purely from D&D. The game designers even said this.
3. Because D&D-centric games tend to have some semblance of balance. Something this game lacks to a huge extent.

The NWN series were story-based games but besides a handful of spells/abilities the game was actually somewhat balanced.

Why do people defend such shoddy balance and game design? Seriously. It's mind boggling. People apparantly hate everything WoW or D&D that they refuse to admit that maybe...just maybe they actually did something right.

Are you kidding me?

1.  This game has all the classical components of practically every fantasy game ever.
2.  This game is inspired by many sources, only one of which is D&D.  This is obvious if you look at the MMO-like nature of the combat system, the lore of the Legion of the Dead, and the European inspiration for the various nations of Thedas.
3.  D&D is intentionally not balanced.  Have you ever actually played D&D?  Do you have any idea how unbalanced it is?  By design, mind you!  They even admit as much, frequently!

Neverwinter Nights was no more "balanced" than any other single-player game.  There is no concept of "balance" amongst classes, here.  There is never a time where you can say, "Dammit, my Rogue just can't beat this overpowered Mage!"  That's multi-player thinking.

Besides, Neverwinter Nights had some entirely worthless classes (Paladin, Druid) and some incredibly powerful classes (Sorcerer, Monk).  It had ridiculous spells like Time Stop, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, Dragon Shape, and Hellball.  I spent hundreds of hours powergaming the hell out of NWN in single- and multi-player settings.  It's not even remotely "balanced".

[lawpel19]

From what i got from story line. Mages are very powerful they destroyed the elves. almost destroyed the wardens. people are very afraid of mage that and anti mage sect came into being. is a mage in this game very powerful. more so then the other two. yes. But it really fit into the story line.

Modifié par lawpel19, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[Jassper]

I see no relation in your logic, Warrior/Rogue class don't make sense, two completely different style of fighting as well as "code of conduct". Where as a Cleric (who cast spells) and a Wizard (who cast spells) being one class does make sense, It's magic either way and in DA, it's viewed the same.

If you want to be a cleric, then pick only creation and spirit spells and go Arcane Warrior.

I don't know of to many knights (warriors) that went around looting locked chest and pick-pocketing, rape and pillage maybe. And besides, they have already combined the Rogue and Bard, and I believe the D&D 3rd edition has as well.

Modifié par Jassper, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[Georg Zoeller]

Eh no. We never said that, because it is absolutely not true.

Brunopolis wrote...

2. This game is supposedly inspired purely from D&D. The game designers even said this.

[DaeFaron]

If I remember, a cleric used armor, weapons and shields, and was in the thick of it.



A cleric could also be specialized in death, healing, fire, combat, and several other things.

[Shannara13]

Mages being unable to heal in other games always seemed kinda stupid really. I mean you can do things like turn yourself into a Dragon but you are somehow unable to heal a cut?

[FedericoV]

Well, I do agree with Sloth of Doom that the original poster seems to have a D&D centric view.

I am happy for the semplification in the magic department. The removal of clerics is a step in the right direction.

But I agree that the game could benefit from a semplification in the melee department too. I do not see the need of a specific rogue class since they are man at arms like warriors and they share most of the combat talents. If we want to leave D&D's paradigm (and I do agree that it's about time...) it would not be bad to cut the rogue class too.

The rogue could be a specialization. Just sayin'.

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:53 .

[addiction21]

But I swear I saw it at sometime, somewhere, where someone said it...

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Eh no. We never said that, because it is absolutely not true.

Brunopolis wrote...

2. This game is supposedly inspired purely from D&D. The game designers even said this.

DAO is not "Insert whatever game you wish here"  and the " X game had this, so Y game should have it too" Is... well its horrible logic and is a crap arguement at best.
As far as I know DAO never had clerics to begin with so I fail to see how they could merge them.