220 réponses à ce sujet

[Ibian]

The Scandinavian with a focus on vikings and stone age kind, as a matter of fact. And building houses is just a hobby and to save a bit of money.

[Darpaek]

Did the vikings ever raid down the Oder? Cuz... there's a lot of viking victims in that chunk of the world with the griffin in their heraldry...

[Ibian]

Down the what? Well wherever it is, they probably did, yes. That were basically badasses that were known and feared throughout the entire known world, so odds are they were there too. We are more concerned with the local area, however.

[Darpaek]

Did I spell it wrong? I mean the river that's the border between Germany and Russia.

[Ibian]

Never heard about it. His focus is Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England, Iceland and Greenland. Thats where most of the useful historical action was. Their trips to the east were more the small group looking for adventure and traders looking for bargains kind of thing, which is interesting enough, and we probably owe the historical accounts by the likes of Ibn Fadlan to them, but not as much as wars with the neighbors.

Modifié par Ibian, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:24 .

[Darpaek]

British heraldry has a lot of griffins.

[Ibian]

Or dragons. Or lind worms. Depends how you look at it. Regardless, British heraldry is not a big topic within the field.

[Darpaek]

That's true. The vikings never conquered Britain or anything... twice...


Apparently, viking artwork had griffins too...

http://www.amazon.co...ntt_at_ep_dpi_7

Modifié par Darpaek, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:33 .

[MerinTB]

Darpaek wrote...

What kinda of archeologist doesn't know what a griffin is? No wonder he builds houses for a living...

Whether or not his dad knows archaeology, it's clear the son doesn't.

Ibian wrote...
So what class is he? A treasure hunter, an architect, a carpenter or an artist?

The
notion that classes make any kind of sense is complete nonsense. There
is nothing that prevents a Zen Buddhist from also being a skilled
singer and a video game master.

The more time you spend on one skill the less time you can spend on other skills.  Someone can learn to do many things, or focus on one thing to exclusion.

You are assuming that being a Warrior involves ONLY studying how to swing a sword.  It also involves learning how to put on and wear armor, care for your equipment, ride a horse (not in this game, I know), combat tactics, how to fight people using different armor and/or different weapons, in a fantasy setting how to fight different size and shape and ability creatures . . .
whereas a mage needs to learn how to manage lyrium intake, casting of spells, meditation, focusing his will, and so - on.

Could someone learn to meditate and pick locks and swing a sword?  Sure.  But this is a game, and the game uses mechanics to simulate events and situations - and what it is simulating with classes is the concept that people who tend to train doing a type of job (soldier, circle mage, whatever) have their training focused.

If your dad was a rock star and a scientist too I'd say he was Buckaroo Banzai.

Modifié par MerinTB, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:33 .

[Ibian]

The actual conquest, however, is a big topic within the field.

You are not looking at this with millennia-old goggles. The vikings didnt care about flags and banners and local arts. They cared about gold and silver and valuables in general. If we were to know anything about their thoughts on the local heraldry, it would have to be because their victims wrote it down. And they were too busy being dead or running for their lives to bother with that. That is why its not a big focus, because there is very little to focus on.

That book has griffin in the title. That, in itself, says nothing at all. Show me some pretty pictures. Also, the vikings were not celts.

Modifié par Ibian, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:38 .

[Darpaek]

I know... I feel like a ******. "Hey kid, your dad's a ******."

Gosh, since you've decided to edit instead of reply, the title of the book is Celtic Design: Dragons and Griffins, The Viking Impact.

You'd have seen the subtitle if you looked at the pretty picture of the cover in the sidebar.

Modifié par Darpaek, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:53 .

[MerinTB]

Try these, Ibian -

"Griffins were later incorporated into many of the medieval Books of Hours, psalters, and bestiaries of Europe . . . the Etymologies of Isidore of Seville (ca. 560-636) and the work of Dante Alighieri (1265-1321)  . . . During the Middle ages, travelers' tales incorporated accounts of the Griffins . . . the Griffin was widely depicted in art forms throughout these periods as well as being used as an emblem in battle for regal courage.  It has become well established in the heraldic repertoire of European coats of arms, especially for nobility" - Carol Rose, Giants, Monsters, and dragons: an Encyclopedia of Folklore, Legend, and Myth.

Check out the following book -

Celtic Design: The Dragon and the Griffin - The Viking Impact by Aidan Meehan - It studies the intricate dragon and griffin patterns that form the basis of the distinctive style of art that arose after the Viking's invasion of Ireland around 850 AD

Shall I continue to find how the Vikings would know the griffin?

EDIT - Say, Darpaek, we have the same sources.

Modifié par MerinTB, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:56 .

[Darpaek]

You're 25 minutes behind the conversation, brother.

That being said, let's stop ragging on this kid's dad. I really feel like a churl.

Edit:  Well, DUH.  Type in "Viking Art Griffin" into Google and it's the first thing that pops up   LOL

Modifié par Darpaek, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:58 .

[Ibian]

Its a book about celtic designs. They could very well have grifs. That still would not mean the vikings did.

[Darpaek]

I'm just upset no one called me on the whole "Germany doesn't border Russia" thing...



I've had a Polish joke ready for an hour now... LOL

[MerinTB]

Darpaek wrote...

You're 25 minutes behind the conversation, brother.

That being said, let's stop ragging on this kid's dad. I really feel like a churl.

Edit:  Well, DUH.  Type in "Viking Art Griffin" into Google and it's the first thing that pops up   LOL

I actually did a "griffins in norse mythology" search, and grabbed some obvious examples.

And I had to type in that quote from the other book as it was in a PDF preview that I couldn't just cut and paste from.

I think if the Celts developed dragon and griffin designs after being invaded by Vikings, as told in a book titles Celtic Designs .... the VIKING IMPACT -
you know, contextually, I think you might surmise that JUST MAYBE the Vikings brought the Griffin and Dragon icons with them.  You know, since the book's title is all about Viking Impacting the Celtic Designs after a Viking Invasion ...

no, Ibian, not enough?

I agree - I'm letting it go.

None of this has anything to do with Mages and Clerics.

Glad your dad's a multi-talented guy, Ibian.

Modifié par MerinTB, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:04 .

[Ibian]

You have not read the book. All you have is the title and the cover. You dont even know when they started using grifs. Or what the viking influence was. Could be the dragons for all you know. And i think im done here.

[Darpaek]

I am stunned by your logic.



Spock disapproves -10

[Kaosgirl]

Ibian wrote...

Real life example: My dad is an archaeologist. He has made the blueprints for every house he has lived in for the past 25 years, and he is working on another one for when my folks move in the coming year. He also builds part of it himself, because it takes too long to build it all without help.

He is also a painter. A rather good one, compared to most modern "art" i see in public buildings and most peoples homes, at that.

So what class is he? A treasure hunter, an architect, a carpenter or an artist?

In D&D terms, he'd be an Expert.  One of the NPC classes from third edition.
In Call of Cthulhu, 

In real life, he's a mediocre architect compared to my neighbor.  And I say this without hesitation, as my neighbor was one of the top architects in this country, if not the world.  

Ibian wrote...
The notion that classes make any kind of sense is complete nonsense. There is nothing that prevents a Zen Buddhist from also being a skilled singer and a video game master.

There is time and opportunity cost, which prevents him from being as good a singer as he could have been, had he not 'wasted time' on other pursuits.

[Ibian]

Which is exactly the point. Diversity instead of specialization. Nothing currently in the game will change unless you want it to change if all abilities were open. For the rest of us, there would simply be more options, which in turn translates to happier players and more sales and sequels and better future games.

[Atmosfear3]

I think the general idea was that healers and mages are generally the same since both use magic for their purposes...unless you have ideas about healers like combat medics in which case thats what you have potions for!



Frankly I wish they would have included some more classes instead of having specializations. Would have been much more interesting and would increase replayability. Consider the fact that the level cap is 25 and you would be able to finish your main tree and 2 specs tops, theres really no other points to expand into other trees. I suppose perhaps the purpose in grouping all the different styles of play together was so your party members could be more diversify (i.e. Leliana as melee or ranged)

[Godeshus]

I personally like the way it is quite a bit. It makes you use the characters for a tactical purpose, rather than just making everyone awesome at everything. You have to pick and choose your companions based on your idea of what is to come. It's more akin to planning a battle, like archers at range vs. melee, pikes vs. cavalry, etc. In this game you have to make sure you've got the proper defense for the offense that is to come. Quite ingenious, if you ask me.

[kusut]

MerinTB wrote...
If your dad was a rock star and a scientist too I'd say he was Buckaroo Banzai.

or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_may

[MarloMarlo]

Kaosgirl wrote...
Such a very shallow outlook, though it is somewhat justified by video games generally catering to the hack-and-slash model, where everything is ultimately about the fight.
Which is why a character who's archetype is about getting the reward by means other than hacking and slashing his way through mobs is so rarely viable; and instead we get a class that's just an alternate-style warrior with lockpicking thrown on.

You find the weirdest ways to tell me I'm right while providing reasons for why combining rogues and warriors wouldn't be such a bad idea.

Kaosgirl wrote...
And I never said otherwise.
What I said is that the guy who takes some time learning how to pick a lock isn't going to be as good at swinging a sword as the guy who devoted his time entirely to swordplay (all other things being equal.)

What you said was "Logically, someone who focuses on out-of-combat utility should be increasing his martial prowess at a much slower rate than someone who focuses on martial prowess..." I addressed that.

What you're saying now isn't much of a counter argument to anything, or a point made against combining rogues and warriors. A rogue can already learn both swordplay and lockpicking and already won't be as good at one if the other is focused on. And access to more abilities is not the same as access to more points to spend on learning abilities.

Kaosgirl wrote...
But that's not the game Dragon Age is either.

Exactly, Dragon Age as it's designed now doesn't have warriors and rogues combined into a single class. That's the point of this thread, to talk about combining the two classes in the game as it exists now. If the game was designed differently with all sorts of things for monkeys to do, there wouldn't be much point in such a suggestion now would there.

What you're basically saying is that, in a completely different game, rogues and warriors existing separately would be fine. That's all well and good, but completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it would be a good idea to combine warriors and rogues. It's like saying "Well, if carbon emissions weren't so harmful..." to Al Gore when he's talking about humanity's impact on the enviornment. You probably wouldn't be wrong, and that would settle the issue, too, but who cares? Is Al Gore going to stop talking about sustainability or whatever because of that? Should he?

Kaosgirl wrote...
The fact that you think this is even proof that you didn't miss my point just acts as further confirmation that you really did. 

The fact that you still think I missed the point and can't say anything about how your point was missed just acts as further confirmation that I didn't miss any points. See how that argument works?

Kaosgirl wrote...
I don't think anyone's really given any kind of idea on how how they'd combine the two.

Which is one reason why any arguments against it on the basis of it not working are strawmen. "If it should be done" and "how it should be done" aren't necessarily the same discussion, at least until someone argues that it should be done in a certain way. But like you said, that's not happening here, so there isn't anything to argue against on that issue.

You could try arguing that the classes shouldn't be combined because there's no way that it would work. That's completely indepentent of anyone's ideas of how it should be done. But I don't think you'd have much to work with doing it that way, either.

Kaosgirl wrote...
The Dragon Age wiki gives it numerous religious references.  It is where the Maker once resided, according to the Chantry, and the realm we all pass through when we die.  Elven lore carries similar ideas.

All that really makes it different from a D&D divine realm is confirmation of the religious attributions.

Yes, according to the Chantry and according to the Elves, the divine exists. But that's just their belief. It's not the same as BioWare's declaration on the cosmology of Dragon Age. That little difference you mention is everything.

Kaosgirl wrote...
In some settings, but not in all.  Dark Sun had none that I could recall - clerics drew their power from the elemental planes instead.

Yes, yes, you know a lot about DnD's various settings. But, just in case it needs to be said, the fact that there are elemental realms in DnD doesn't change the fact that there are also divine realms that are actually divine. So this little tidbit isn't a counter to what you're responding to. I'm sure we don't disagree on that.

Kaosgirl wrote...
Except...  the Templars themselves have magic-like abilities (though focused on countering more traditional magic,) which the lore explains as being gained from consuming lyrium.

And there's a Templar specialization for warriors, complete with magic-like Templar abilities that are not magic. And, as Alistar explains it, lyrium just enhances Templar abilities and keeps them on the Chantry's leash.

Kaosgirl wrote...
And there are wilder mages and 'apostates' who managed to avoid being sent to a tower or arranged an escape from it in some way.

If you want to argue that there should be an apostate origin story, you can do that. But it wouldn't have anything to do with any points made in this thread, and neither does what you just said.

Kaosgirl wrote...
And we can also look at the idea from the opposite direction instead, if you prefer:  why can't a mage learn to backstab or hit someone in the face with a shield?

Why not, indeed. Is there a point to this question of yours? Do you think it'll serve as a counter argument to anything?

Modifié par MarloMarlo, 08 décembre 2009 - 08:47 .

[Mordaedil]

This thread is why we can't have nice things.



Personally, I prefer class-less systems, like Fallout, myself. Then you become a mage if you are trained in it or chose the perk to be born with magic, you can be just as much a lock-pick master as the next guy, but you can't be both a master of the sword and master of the dark arts and picklock your way to oblivion. There's just not enough points, unless you cheat your way.