167 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

biiskit wrote...

I thought it was possible someone on the writing team thought commander was higher than major, consider that Bailey gets a promotion from captain to commander so c-sec ranks appear to be different to alliance ranks, at least as shown in the codex.

As for left handed salutes, perhaps in the future they've done away with right handed bias.  

The problem is that they'd be throwing out thousands of years of human tradition. Saluting with the right hand is so ingrained in human culture, that switching to the left would be unlikely. Also, there are people in the game who salute with the proper (right) hand as well. A military organization even in the future, would have rules & regs covering customs & courtesies like salutes. There would be a uniform way in which it was rendered. (either right or left, but not both)

If Shepard has the War Hero background, I suppose you could always head canon that in the Alliance right handed salutes are rendered to superior officers, but left handed salutes are rendered to Star of Terra recipients, regardless of rank. In that case Shepard being saluted with the right or left hand would make sense. If being saluted with the right hand they are saluting his rank, if saluting with the left they are saluting his Star of Terra.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 13 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[Farbautisonn]

Han Shot First wrote...
The problem is that they'd be throwing out thousands of years of human tradition. Saluting with the right hand is so ingrained in human culture, that switching to the left would be unlikely. Also, there are people in the game who salute with the proper (right) hand as well. A military organization even in the future, would have rules & regs covering customs & courtesies like salutes. There would be a uniform way in which it was rendered. (either right or left, but not both)

-Agree. The military is a hirarchy thats very traditional.

Modifié par Farbautisonn, 13 avril 2012 - 06:21 .

[Han Shot First]

Some more nitpicking on salutes...

Sometimes Marines on the Normandy will salute Shepard, but he doesn't return the salute. In the military when a superior officer is saluted, he is supposed to salute his subordinate in turn. Nothing pisses an enlisted man off more than having some pompous 'gentleman' not return his salute.

[kalle90]

Now this is something I'm satisfied with, I wouldn't want the game to turn into army conduct simulator. Besides the rules in army are getting looser and looser, wouldn't be that big a surprise if in 100 years people were allowed to salute with their main hands.

[Han Shot First]

kalle90 wrote...

Now this is something I'm satisfied with, I wouldn't want the game to turn into army conduct simulator. Besides the rules in army are getting looser and looser, wouldn't be that big a surprise if in 100 years people were allowed to salute with their main hands.

That isn't true.

[kalle90]

I guess depends which countries are we talking about.

[zambingo]

Ruthac_Arus wrote...

As annoying as the other stuff may be, Hackett sends Shepard a message right away after leaving Earth stating he/she has operational command. The rank issue is a non-issue in this case.

BOOM! TRUTHINESS!

+1 and other notes of agreeitude.

[DoctorEss]

 I don't care if you're former military.

You're not former Systems Alliance military, so your experience means zip.

You can't really say what sort of ranks or salutes (lol who cares what hand it is) will be in use in a hundred years.

If everyone in the game does it, then that's how the Systems Alliance does it.  That means more than how people on Earth did it back in the early 21st century.

Also, Shepard outranks pretty much everyone in the Alliance military.  The Commander title is pretty much a formality, as his/her Spectre status gives them faaaaar more scope and power than any silly military rank.  That's why Kaidan doesn't command the ship.  He's nobody compared to a council Spectre.  

[Mylia Stenetch]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Maferath wrote...

I was more bothered by turian soldiers doing the human salute, personally. Why would their military use the same code as ours?

-Because the old roman "salve" salute where the right hand was lifted reminds people too much of certain regimes. It would likely be a salute like that that such an autocratic military used. Garrus is much more palatable doing the standard US salute, than he would be popping the "Hitler Grüss" left right and center.

But I believe that the Raising of the hand is a more traditional military greeting/salute. 

However in a tactical unit, you do not salute your superiors unless in barracks or in a very formal setting. You dont even wear any kind of rank insignia. Why? Because snipers pick the highest ranking target on the battlefield and work their way down. Observers paint their barracks and their tents with laser for Jdam.

This. I was bothered more by that than anything else. In London, although in your "base" saluting out in the open will get you marked.

[zambingo]

DoctorEss wrote...
That's why Kaidan doesn't command the ship.  He's nobody compared to a council Spectre.  

Accept for the fact Kaidan becomes a Spectre.

And while your points about the salute are FANTASTIC. The only "command" answer is the truly simple answer...

At the very begining of the game, right after getting on the Normandy, Admiral Hackett gives Shepard operational command. No technical ranks matter at that point.

[bleachorange]

because artistic integrity?

[Tietj]

In the past 100 years or so, there have been many, many changes to our military. Just in the past few years we've allowed gay people to serve. The salute thing is such a nonissue it's almost laughable that anyone is upset by it. "But, but thousands of years of tradition..." Barbara, please. As though thousands of years of tradition has never been thrown out before.

If a member of the military is bothered by the left handed salute, I imagine their discomfort is nothing compared to the reaction of a soldier 200 years ago if they had been shown a futuristic world where women were military officers.

[bleachorange]

zambingo wrote...

DoctorEss wrote...
That's why Kaidan doesn't command the ship.  He's nobody compared to a council Spectre.  

Accept for the fact Kaidan becomes a Spectre.

And while your points about the salute are FANTASTIC. The only "command" answer is the truly simple answer...

At the very begining of the game, right after getting on the Normandy, Admiral Hackett gives Shepard operational command. No technical ranks matter at that point.

Actually, Shepard was previousely Kaidan's commanding officer, has seniority at the same rank (if Alenko was promoted), was the previous commander of the vessel in question, Kaidan is not yet a Spectre, and EDI would listen to Shepard over Alenko any day of the week. Yes, the operational command is the strongest selling point, the only technically accurate one, but by no means is it the only factor. **** happens in war, especially if someone like Alenko with all the leadership qualities of a plank of wood, is put in charge and someone else steps up and actually leads the crew. Not saying it happens often, but not every CO is a great leader.

[Lord Phoebus]

Yeah the ranks are borked beyond belief. It's generally Lieutenant->Captain->Major->Colonel->General with a few subranks in between for army and Ensign->Lieutenant->Lieutenant Comander->Commander->Captain->Admiral with subranks in between for Navy. So lieutenants tend to be equal, then Captain (A)=Lieutenant Commander (N), Major (A)=Commander (N), Colonel (A)=Captain (N) and General (A)=Admiral (N). Bailey's promotion makes sense, Alenko's makes no sense (from a naming perspective) and Williams' suggests that someone on the writtng team was high.

That said, considering that Shepard, Alenko and Williams are all marines, even if Shepard is Navy he should never have been put in command of a ship, he should have had a ship at his disposal (as in he sets the itinerary) but a naval officer should have had command. Shepard is a ground forces, small unit tactics guy. He doesn't demonstrate anything more than a rudimentary knowledge of fleet operations, space combat and ship operations. In Star Trek terms he should have been like an ambassador on a star ship, the ship does what the ambassador wants, the ship still has a captain that executes the command. It's like putting a Navy Seal in command of a frigate (though I suspect the SR-2 is a destroyer).

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 13 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[bleachorange]

Tietj wrote...

In the past 100 years or so, there have been many, many changes to our military. Just in the past few years we've allowed gay people to serve. The salute thing is such a nonissue it's almost laughable that anyone is upset by it. "But, but thousands of years of tradition..." Barbara, please. As though thousands of years of tradition has never been thrown out before.

If a member of the military is bothered by the left handed salute, I imagine their discomfort is nothing compared to the reaction of a soldier 200 years ago if they had been shown a futuristic world where women were military officers.

200? Try 1930s, fella, where the services were still yet to be integrated, at least in the US. but, yes, that would still be amusing.

[Tietj]

Lol, I was using 200 years because that's about the amount of time in the future that Mass Effect takes place

[Awookie]

DoctorEss wrote...

 I don't care if you're former military.

You're not former Systems Alliance military, so your experience means zip.

You can't really say what sort of ranks or salutes (lol who cares what hand it is) will be in use in a hundred years.

If everyone in the game does it, then that's how the Systems Alliance does it.  That means more than how people on Earth did it back in the early 21st century.

Also, Shepard outranks pretty much everyone in the Alliance military.  The Commander title is pretty much a formality, as his/her Spectre status gives them faaaaar more scope and power than any silly military rank.  That's why Kaidan doesn't command the ship.  He's nobody compared to a council Spectre.  

Hackett emphasizes that Spectres are above several military ranks. 
Tela Vasir had jursidiction over several Illium police officers.
Shepard can authorize often abritrary decisions, like putting Engineer Donnelly back on board, despite his ties with Cerberus. 
He only answers to Hackett due to mutual respect and an allegiance to the System Alliance, plus Hackett has more fleet command experience. 
Anderson designated Shepard as the ships unconditional CO also.  

[bleachorange]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

Yeah the ranks are borked beyond belief. It's generally Lieutenant->Captain->Major->Colonel->General with a few subranks in between for army and Ensign->Lieutenant->Lieutenant Comander->Commander->Captain->Admiral with subranks in between for Navy. So lieutenants tend to be equal, then Captain (A)=Lieutenant Commander (N), Major (A)=Commander (N), Colonel (A)=Captain (N) and General (A)=Admiral (N). Bailey's promotion makes sense, Alenko's makes no sense and Williams' suggests that someone on the writtng team was high.

That said, considering that Shepard, Alenko and Williams are all marines, even if Shepard is Navy he should never have been put in command of a ship, he should have had a ship at his disposal (as in he sets the itinerary) but a naval officer should have had command. Shepard is a ground forces, small unit tactics guy. He doesn't demonstrate anything more than a rudimentary knowledge of fleet operations, space combat and ship operations. In Star Trek terms he should have been like an ambassador on a star ship, the ship does what the ambassador wants, the ship still has a captain that executes the command. It's like putting a Navy Seal in command of a frigate (though I suspect the SR-2 is a destroyer).

Look, the Alliance military is a new governing body. It only makes sense that ranks are different (unless they contradict themselves). Look at a Captain in the Navy versus a Captain in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Air Force. Yep.

though, your point about operational command of the vessel is valid. Still, you don't truly know everything about Shepard's training, which may influence this (maybe there's cross-training in the future, though I doubt it - specialization works wonders for efficiency). I agree, that it would make more sense the way you describe it.

Overall, I think the rank and salute stuff is a non-issue, it's a futuristic, fictional military for a governing body that doesn't exist yet. I think we can cut them some slack on ranks (which are usually redrawn every revolution) and which hand is saluting. maybe it's an ambidextrous incentive for all we know. 

I'm by no means someone who lets the devs off the hook, but come on - most of this is just not that big a deal.

[Lord Phoebus]

Awookie wrote...

Hackett emphasizes that Spectres are above several military ranks. 

Well yes and no. Spectres aren't military, so any Alliance officer can refuse his command, of course then Shepard can complain to the Council, the Council will complain to the Alliance ambassador, the Alliance ambasador will complain to the Alliance political leadership, the Alliance political leadership will complain to the military brass and the Alliance brass will then issue an order to the officer.  He has a certain carte blanche to do what he will, but he can't just jump on to any Alliance ship and say Omega and step on it, he has to request the use of the ship from the Alliance first and they have to send a letter to the commander of the ship saying, Shepard is in command.

[Abraham_uk]

kelsjet wrote...

Raseri wrote...

Giskler wrote...

So if a General from the Army comes on board a frigate hes suddenly in charge and the Commander has to salute him first?

I'm not a military buff, but I thought everyone has to salute the officer in command of a vessel first when they are on board it regardless of their difference in rank.

To answer your question simply: Yes

Wrong.

Army and Navy are two separate branches. A higher ranking Army officer does not assume command of a Navy asset if no higher or equal equivalent rank of the Navy is present.

Instead, the highest ranking navy officer is in charge of the vessel.

I'm not sure what you think you are talking about, but you are dead wrong. You say you are ex-military, but your basic lack of understanding on chain of command across different branches of the armed forces leads me to believe you are full of ****.

Kaidan is a major in the Army. Shepard, whilst being a Commander, is still the highest ranking Alliance Navy officer aboard the Normandy. Hence, he is in charge.

Free Advice: Go read up on the facts before you start "ZOMG PLOTHOZLEZ ******** ********" screaming.

Okay fair enough but just two things:

He/she could still be millitary and be wrong.
Can you treat the person with a little more respect.


The ranks and saluting are minor issues. Really. It is not like they had some ghostly vision of a dead child providing three woeful choices. Umm. That happened?

[Awookie]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

Awookie wrote...

Hackett emphasizes that Spectres are above several military ranks. 

Well yes and no. Spectres aren't military, so any Alliance officer can refuse his command, of course then Shepard can complain to the Council, the Council will complain to the Alliance ambassador, the Alliance ambasador will complain to the Alliance political leadership, the Alliance political leadership will complain to the military brass and the Alliance brass will then issue an order to the officer.  He has a certain carte blanche to do what he will, but he can't just jump on to any Alliance ship and say Omega and step on it, he has to request the use of the ship from the Alliance first and they have to send a letter to the commander of the ship saying, Shepard is in command.

Well, yes.  Theyre only backed by the council's influence, and even so, it stretches down a long line. 

[Giskler]

StarcloudSWG wrote...
It did bother me a bit that Shepard was the one directing the opening engagement of the fleets above Earth. That should, properly, have been Adm. Hackett.

Hackett was with Shield fleet guarding the Crucible, so he couldnt have lead the attack.

[Nefla]

This actually annoyed me as well. Not the Kaidan following orders thing (I figure they're friends and it's a very irregular situation). What bothered me was that random people were acting like commander was a higher rank than captain. For instance Bailey was "promoted" from captain to commander...wha-? I seem to remember there also being a part where Shepard stressed the word "captain" when talking to someone of that rank as if reminding them that they were lower ranked and the perspm responded in a sumbissive way that would support that. It was pretty weird and confusing. Also Shep needs a promotion.

[Sangheili_1337]

I don't think its that a big of a deal. The Systems Alliance is not America or even NATO. It is a entity that spans the stars 200 years in the future. Why should they follow the same ranks and protocols? Its like comparing modern day America with 1800 Japan.