167 réponses à ce sujet

[Fates end]

The ranking system might be a little odd, but again, it's an odd situation that the characters are in (and as others have pointed out, Hackett put Shepard in command, so that's that).

As for the salutes . . . I'm not military, so maybe that's why I wasn't annoyed by it. And really, maybe in 200 years in a universe where alien empires are roaming around and giant robocuttlefish are trying to kill everything for the pure lulz of it, the human Alliance will have changed the rules on saluting. *shrugs*

Not exactly something to get worked up over.

[Viper Pred]

Nefla wrote...

This actually annoyed me as well. Not the Kaidan following orders thing (I figure they're friends and it's a very irregular situation). What bothered me was that random people were acting like commander was a higher rank than captain. For instance Bailey was "promoted" from captain to commander...wha-? I seem to remember there also being a part where Shepard stressed the word "captain" when talking to someone of that rank as if reminding them that they were lower ranked and the perspm responded in a sumbissive way that would support that. It was pretty weird and confusing. Also Shep needs a promotion.

Just a little funny fact - in some navies, for example in Poland, Navy Captain is a lower rank than Navy Commander. True, Polish Navy isn't exactly a bigshot, but this only proves that such pecularities aren't unheard of in the real world.

[BiancoAngelo7]

LOL it'll be a cold day in hell indeed when I give over control of anything more than a remote control car to Kaiden the slow paced daherdaderp. Seriously....I hate that dude lol.

[BatmanPWNS]

Bioware has never been good with this rank stuff anyway.

Plus, I sure Kaidan doesn't mind if Shepard is the leader.

Modifié par BatmanPWNS, 13 avril 2012 - 09:33 .

[brfritos]

Fates end wrote...

The ranking system might be a little odd, but again, it's an odd situation that the characters are in (and as others have pointed out, Hackett put Shepard in command, so that's that).

As for the salutes . . . I'm not military, so maybe that's why I wasn't annoyed by it. And really, maybe in 200 years in a universe where alien empires are roaming around and giant robocuttlefish are trying to kill everything for the pure lulz of it, the human Alliance will have changed the rules on saluting. *shrugs*

Not exactly something to get worked up over.

I think is not about getting worked up over, but there are things that displeases me in the series, specially in ME3.
Every episode retconn something for some reason.
In ME2 the introduction of heatsinks is one of them, but OK, it was a needed element for the gameplay so I can live with that.

But starting with Arrival some things happens not because they are needed, but because "they are cool".
The destruction of that mass relay by an asteroid is one of them, a mass relay can survive a supernova in ME1 but can't a crappy asteroid in ME2? WTF?! Supernovas generate more energy alone than a planet colliding with a moon size body, for example.
In ME3 this type of thing were raised to extremelly high levels of pure "coolsh*t".

What is coolsh*t? Is something that only happens because is cool to show, not because the story or action demands it.

For example, is stated by earlier games that Geth don't need fighter pilots, they ARE the fighters.
Yet we see a geth fighter being pilot by a geth (I'm not refering to Legion).
Anderson says that all communications were severed from Earth and all satellites were destroyed, the only way is through quantum entanglement devices.
Yet we see a satellite around Earth in a cutscene.
In the future the Moon was renamed and is now known as "Luna", yet in the beginning Anderson reffers to it as "the moon".
I don't even need to say something about the dreadnought in the game beginning.

These are not gamebreaking and don't impact slightest in the gameplay, let's be clear about it.

But it generates inconsistency with ME's own universe.
I'm OK with one or other thing beings changed, but ME3 change things by the dozens, contradicting is own lore and universe.
One of the things that really appeal to me in ME1/ME2 was this consistency, but ME3 is plagued by inconsistencies the same way the Deception novel is (femShep armor boot has even heels)!
Even if people don't like the way military ranks are presented in the Alliance, ME2 respected them and Ash and Alenko were promoted to the next rank in line.

Now Ash skips four ranks and Alenko magically skips two in a period of one year?
I really like the reason for it, there must been one hell of a job they did.

[Lord_Tito]

1: This is a video game
2: It's set in the future
3: Sometimes BW misses things (face import problems and so on)
4: The Alliance is a Human Alliance not an American Alliance. Americans are 5% of the worlds population, it's very hard to believe that 95% of Humans would accustom themselves 100% to the American way.
5: Saluting with the Right hand is not an American custom, but a trans human custom.
6: As things are going now it would be more accurate to assume that the Alliance would be based on a Chinese/BRICS countries military model, because they will be the largest economies in the future and they wastly outnumber any other economical bloc.

Modifié par Lord_Tito, 13 avril 2012 - 10:18 .

[Vasarkian]

kelsjet wrote...

Raseri wrote...

Giskler wrote...

So if a General from the Army comes on board a frigate hes suddenly in charge and the Commander has to salute him first?

I'm not a military buff, but I thought everyone has to salute the officer in command of a vessel first when they are on board it regardless of their difference in rank.

To answer your question simply: Yes

Wrong.

Army and Navy are two separate branches. A higher ranking Army officer does not assume command of a Navy asset if no higher or equal equivalent rank of the Navy is present.

Instead, the highest ranking navy officer is in charge of the vessel.

I'm not sure what you think you are talking about, but you are dead wrong. You say you are ex-military, but your basic lack of understanding on chain of command across different branches of the armed forces leads me to believe you are full of ****.

Kaidan is a major in the Army. Shepard, whilst being a Commander, is still the highest ranking Alliance Navy officer aboard the Normandy. Hence, he is in charge.

Free Advice: Go read up on the facts before you start "ZOMG PLOTHOZLEZ ******** ********" screaming.

Actually according to the Mass Effect lore, both Kaiden and Shepard are in the same branch. The Alliance Systems Navy.

[Crazyjeffy]

Kaidan's dead. He can't be in a charge.

Also, Systems Alliance =/= US Military

[Mettyx]

It doesn't really matter, my Shepard gay-romanced Kaidan so he allowed him to command Normandy for other "services" rendered.

Modifié par Mettyx, 13 avril 2012 - 10:24 .

[Wulfram]

brfritos wrote...

In the future the Moon was renamed and is now known as "Luna", yet in the beginning Anderson reffers to it as "the moon".

I would assume that Luna is what you call Earth's moon when you want to distinguish it from all the other moons.  But if you're on earth and the context is clear, then "the moon" would be appropriate.

Just like you might say "the sun is rising" at dawn, but you'd probably say "Sol is slightly larger than Parnitha" if you were comparing the stars of the human and asari home worlds

Modifié par Wulfram, 13 avril 2012 - 10:52 .

[paxxton]

l7986 wrote...

the left handed salutes. how do you let something so basic to the military as a salute get messed up.

There is no reason for soldiers to salute with their right hand. In fact it's done this way today only because ages ago left-handers were considered to be possesed by a devil. Well, today we all know that's not true so I think in 2186 it won't make a difference to salute with either hand.

Modifié par paxxton, 13 avril 2012 - 11:11 .

[garf]

Giskler wrote...

So if a General from the Army comes on board a frigate hes suddenly in charge and the Commander has to salute him first?

I'm not a military buff, but I thought everyone has to salute the officer in command of a vessel first when they are on board it regardless of their difference in rank.

It could have something to do with Alenko being a 'major' maybe he's not navy.  Alliance marines and navy are very mixed as evidenced by Captain Anderson and Lt. Cmdr Shepherd being both marines but the Captain and XO of a ship.

Usually on a ship there is only one Captain, regardless of his or her rank. Army captains (eqvalent to Navy Full Lieutennants) are usually given a temporary curtesy promotion to Major (about the equivalent of an Lt Cmdr) during his or her stay aboard. A navy Captain (the Army/Marines eqvalent of COLONEL) would typically be the captain of a capital ship (A dreadnought class presumably here) a visiting naval officer with the rank of Captain sometimes get's reffered to as Commodore. (which in some navies is an actual  rank as well.) The senior captain in a fleet or flotilla of ships might aslo recieve the title of Commodore.

This is all too complex for people who aren't military or military buffs. but yes it's as annoying for Bioware to get it wrong for those of us that are as it is for linguists to hear modern english spoken by aliens 200 years in the future, or the fashion concious to look at Aller's dress.

however, conversely if we are going to be all stiff and military about our game AND have consequences for our choices then Romancing Ashley, (especially Ashley), Kaiden, Vega, Cortez or Traynor ... includes a very real risk for shepherd of facing charges of 'conduct unbecoming an officer' something the characters would be aware of and trying to avoid by being discrete. I say Especially Ashley, because if you romance her in ME 1 then not only are you fratrinizing with someone below you in your chain of command (Which she is once she's made crew of the ship you XO) but there's the additional infraction of fratnization between an officer and an enlisted.

Ideally and in theory the bulk of the risk and full weight of military discipline is supposed to fall on the higher ranking member but .. well rank also has it's priviledges.

Which is a long winded way of saying left handed salutes are the least of the worries a military buff like me has.


(EDIT: When I said maybe Alenko is not 'navy' what I was really thinking was maybe he's not 'line command' that is to say maybe the designation of major for the same paygrade as captain means he get's the same pay and command authority on the ground but lacks 'watch standing certification' or some other criteria that would make him eligible for ship command.

Modifié par garf, 13 avril 2012 - 11:34 .

[garf]

Crazyjeffy wrote...

Kaidan's dead. He can't be in a charge.

Also, Systems Alliance =/= US Military

The alliance was formed from the first nations of the world including Britain, the UNAS (Canada, US , Mexico) and probably most NATO nations.

Alliance rank structure doesn't really match any NATO standard. But like I said. A left handed salute is far down on the list of breaches of Immersion for Military aware players.

No one in gaming or movies get's it right anyway so Meh.

[garf]

Vasarkian wrote...

kelsjet wrote...

Raseri wrote...

Giskler wrote...

So if a General from the Army comes on board a frigate hes suddenly in charge and the Commander has to salute him first?

I'm not a military buff, but I thought everyone has to salute the officer in command of a vessel first when they are on board it regardless of their difference in rank.

To answer your question simply: Yes

Wrong.

Army and Navy are two separate branches. A higher ranking Army officer does not assume command of a Navy asset if no higher or equal equivalent rank of the Navy is present.

Instead, the highest ranking navy officer is in charge of the vessel.

I'm not sure what you think you are talking about, but you are dead wrong. You say you are ex-military, but your basic lack of understanding on chain of command across different branches of the armed forces leads me to believe you are full of ****.

Kaidan is a major in the Army. Shepard, whilst being a Commander, is still the highest ranking Alliance Navy officer aboard the Normandy. Hence, he is in charge.

Free Advice: Go read up on the facts before you start "ZOMG PLOTHOZLEZ ******** ********" screaming.

Actually according to the Mass Effect lore, both Kaiden and Shepard are in the same branch. The Alliance Systems Navy.

Exactly.
There are no 3 (5) branches to the Alliance Military. There is the NAVY period. The naval infantry appear to be seamlessly integrated as evidenced by Anderson and Shepherd both holding line commands despite being N7 marines.

[garf]

Of course if they really did it right... back in ME 1 both Anderson and Shep should have been no higher ranking than Lt. Cmdr. since anderson commanded a frigate and Shepherd was his subordinate and second in command.


That would leave Staff commander as the appropriate pay grade for larger Cruisers.
and Captain (the rank) suited for the position of Captain of a capital ship.

Admirals of course don't command ships. They are too busy commanding fleets.

[MingWolf]

I never really noticed the left handed salutes, so I guess it never bothered me that much (despite being former military here).  What did bother me somewhat is seeing Ash jumping from an NCO to four ranks up in the officer chain.  Like, sheesh, that's quite the boost.  Not as high as Kaiden, but he was already an officer.  

The other thing that also bugged me (or at least felt strange) was how the aliens would share similar military customs and rank.  I mean, seeing the Turians saluting like the humans is a bit on the odd-ball side.

[garf]

MingWolf wrote...

I never really noticed the left handed salutes, so I guess it never bothered me that much (despite being former military here).  What did bother me somewhat is seeing Ash jumping from an NCO to four ranks up in the officer chain.  Like, sheesh, that's quite the boost.  Not as high as Kaiden, but he was already an officer.  

The other thing that also bugged me (or at least felt strange) was how the aliens would share similar military customs and rank.  I mean, seeing the Turians saluting like the humans is a bit on the odd-ball side.

Yeah I was hoping they had roman style ranks or that asari officers would have titles like 'Mistress of the Hunt' or 'Pack Leader'

Do the asari even HAVE officers? from the description it sounds like every ground pounder they have is a commando. which means a relative f-ton of commandos compared to other miitaries but an absolute scarity of soldiers on an absolute scale. What's their support structure... the navy? Asari military conventions always puzzled me.

I assumed Alien military ranks were being translated to their english/alliance equivalent when it otherwise didn't make sense. It's too bad the turians weren't using terms like Centurian, Optio, and Tribune though. would have fit their presentation very well.

Modifié par garf, 14 avril 2012 - 12:30 .

[bleachorange]

paxxton wrote...

l7986 wrote...

the left handed salutes. how do you let something so basic to the military as a salute get messed up.

There is no reason for soldiers to salute with their right hand. In fact it's done this way today only because ages ago left-handers were considered to be possesed by a devil. Well, today we all know that's not true so I think in 2186 it won't make a difference to salute with either hand.

except if 2 people beside each other in formation salute with adjacent hands, they'd hurt their elbows!!

[garf]

bleachorange wrote...

paxxton wrote...

l7986 wrote...

the left handed salutes. how do you let something so basic to the military as a salute get messed up.

There is no reason for soldiers to salute with their right hand. In fact it's done this way today only because ages ago left-handers were considered to be possesed by a devil. Well, today we all know that's not true so I think in 2186 it won't make a difference to salute with either hand.

except if 2 people beside each other in formation salute with adjacent hands, they'd hurt their elbows!!

Standards exist for a reason. Every nation sometimes every branch of a given military has it's own salute. which is described in detail in either a drill manual, a military regulation or both. It also describes when and where you may or must salute. (ie you don't salute out of uniform but you do come to attention and do an 'eyes right' or 'eyes left' in place of a salute) deliberately sloppy protocol is considered a form of insult. Now given that the alliance salutes in a manner much like most of the english speaking world and several other nations to boot. It makes sense that left handed salutes are not part of the protocol.

[wolfstanus]

Systems alliance...
A military made up from differnt governments on earth and colonies.
Rank system inherently differnt from earth ranks. (just like USMC is differnt than army etc and german ranks are differnt from American and British ranks) saluting is differnt too (just like **** Germany/, Britain, ancient Rome and America etc) have differnt salutes.

Shepard has a form of (insert highest award a serviceman can get) making even admirals/generals salute him. It's a formality. Him being a specter also helps in him being saluted by aliens and their military leaders.

Hacket and anderson gave him the Normandy. "it's your ship now" He is the co of the ship. He also has operational command on everything that's going on. Alenko/ash do not. my dad was a e-8 in the army... He was giving orders to 4 star generals in his 30+ year career)

[garf]

All reasonable explanations.

Like I said. the biggest 'belief suspender breaker' I have with the Game version of an Earth Military is it's apparant blind eye to any fraternization regs.

still like all games and movies they DO 'get it wrong'

[wolfstanus]

garf wrote...

All reasonable explanations.

Like I said. the biggest 'belief suspender breaker' I have with the Game version of an Earth Military is it's apparant blind eye to any fraternization regs.

still like all games and movies they DO 'get it wrong'

I think they just brushed over it.

But from what I got from it. So long as of it does not interfer with your duties it's a don't ask don't tell situation. Ships can be out for months if not years from their home port. Relationships will happen.

Modifié par wolfstanus, 14 avril 2012 - 01:35 .

[Sons OfLesbians]

maybe they do different salutes in the alliance? big whoop.

[TheBlackBaron]

Yes, the Alliance ranks are rather derp. We've known that since ME1.

Also, by all rights Shepard should have been referred to as Captain ever since he got control of the Normandy. The CO of the vessel is always, always, -always- called Captain, no matter their actual rank.

[Volus Warlord]

Nitpicking...