361 réponses à ce sujet

[FalconCritical]

You've got to give it to Tolkien - before he came along there were two forms of elves.



English Elves - these were like pixies, little spirits in the forest with pointy ears and bells on their shoes. Often mischievous but always good natured.



Norse Elves - The Ljossalf at least were a race of beautiful humanoids that mankind only saw as spirits or in dreams. They were of similar stature to humans but were largely ethereal whenever encountered.



Tolkien took both of these concepts and mixed them into what is now the standard definition of an Elf. Dwarves (Svartalf - black elves) similarly also started from Norse sagas, where they were depicted as short bearded men that lived underground and were generally considered greedy and evil. Much of what Tolkien wrote was just paraphrasing and re-interpreting Norse sagas, much like Star Wars was reinterpretation of Akira Kurosawa's works.



I am digressing. Tolkien elves much like anything that is 'perfect' annoy me as a concept. If you are annoyed that Dragon Age elves lost their immortality through breeding with humans (that is how I imagine it would have happened at least), are you not bothered that Tolkien elves can 'die of despair'?



If you want a high and mighty elf, play a dalish and be that way. At least you get the choice.

[MerinTB]

Grell74 wrote...

Personally I could not stand the absurd dwarf tossing in Helm’s Deep (and the trivializing of the whole Gimil character),

I'll admit, I'm something of a fantasy dwarf enthusiast, so R.A. Salvatore's writing always hit some of the right notes with me (one of the few fantasy authors that didn't treat dwarves as throw-away characters in reference to elves) (oh, and I cannot wait for the flames of "he doesn't like Tolkien but likes Salvatore" as attempts to discredit me)

so, acknowledging a liking of dwarves and a dislike of how they are almost always secondary characters at best -

how Gimli was denegrated to mostly comic-relief in the LotR movies bugged me quite a bit, too.

That, and "sparkly vampire" elves (hey, I'm liking this comparision NOW) aside, I really enjoyed Jackson's films.

[Grell74]

I find Bioware's insistence on short-arse elves odd, they did the same thing in Baldur's gate despite the fact that in Forgottern Realms lore the Moon Elves etc ARE actually taller than humans and more like Tolkien's. I think Warhammer did it quite well with their synthesis of Eric of Melnibone + Tolkien. Strangely LOTR Online also had Bioware short scawny elves... are there gamers that this appeals to?

I would love designers to go back to the desciptions of elves like Feanor, Eol and even Cirdan (8 foot tall and bearded!) I mean it seems logical:

-Humans medium hieight medium build
-Dwarves short and stocky
-Elves tall and slender...

I can appreciate that PJs films are impressive feats, but as someone who has read the Silmarillion and LOTR several times over the years they clashed with my own perceptions. Even though I might be snobbish about Tolkien cannon I was also a fan of RA Salvatore and in the day loved Crystal Shard, Wulgar etc.

Modifié par Grell74, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[th3warr1or]

FalconCritical wrote...

You've got to give it to Tolkien - before he came along there were two forms of elves.

English Elves - these were like pixies, little spirits in the forest with pointy ears and bells on their shoes. Often mischievous but always good natured.

Norse Elves - The Ljossalf at least were a race of beautiful humanoids that mankind only saw as spirits or in dreams. They were of similar stature to humans but were largely ethereal whenever encountered.

Tolkien took both of these concepts and mixed them into what is now the standard definition of an Elf. Dwarves (Svartalf - black elves) similarly also started from Norse sagas, where they were depicted as short bearded men that lived underground and were generally considered greedy and evil. Much of what Tolkien wrote was just paraphrasing and re-interpreting Norse sagas, much like Star Wars was reinterpretation of Akira Kurosawa's works.

I am digressing. Tolkien elves much like anything that is 'perfect' annoy me as a concept. If you are annoyed that Dragon Age elves lost their immortality through breeding with humans (that is how I imagine it would have happened at least), are you not bothered that Tolkien elves can 'die of despair'?

If you want a high and mighty elf, play a dalish and be that way. At least you get the choice.

I hate being short though.  Dalish elves look like ******. Just look @ Cammen. He looks like a ******.

And the fact that Tolkien's fantasy stems from Norse Sagas makes me love it even more. I am an extremely avid fan and lover of Norse Mythology.

[Valtonis]

NO, i loved the fact those high and might fairies are put in their place

[Godeshus]

The Vlad Taltos series by Steven Brust spins the most interesting take on elves I've ever read about.
Basically elves are ridiculously long lived (no different than high fantasy) but it ends there. They are tyrants, have an extremely high regard of themselves and their race, and any "easterner (humans)" are the scum of society. In the city where the stories take place, humans essentially live in a chanti town, the most derelict area of the city. The women are reduced to whoring themselves out to eke by, and the men who live there work the crappier jobs of the city, like cleaning sewers, working at the slaughterhouses, etc. Humans are also more often than not beaten up by the younger elves on a regular basis just for sport. The elves are extremely contemptful. A bunch of jerks, really. And to top it all off, the slums are run by a mob organization of elves that keeps the poor poor and beaten down while lining their pockets.

Modifié par Godeshus, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:23 .

[andorman01]

I don't feel like starting a ****storm so I'll just leave it as I strongly disagree, and I feel that you are doing a great discredit to Tolkien by judging his works when you have barely scratched the surface of his material.  I personally can't stand it when anyone tries to pass off source material as if it were more relevant than the actual works or words of the author, but I digress.

I do feel the need to address this comment however, for I feel it lies at the heart of why I cannot accept your arguments as valid-

MerinTB wrote...
The only flaw I saw out of the Lord of the Rings for the elves was that they left the world when it needed them (again, I don't think Tolkien intended for them to be read as overly arrogant - my interpretation).  Others have brought up that an elf killed someone or a group of elves did this evil dead or that an elf leader once did a horrible thing - and I call them outliers, as in they are not even close to the norm for how Tolkien has created the elves of his fantasy.
You can try and nitpick inconsistency, but let me help you on what I mean - Superman, as I used him, is a symbol of a fictional being written as having way too many good qualities that are not at all balanced by their few bad qualities.
It's not contradictory - your understanding of my meaning is off is all.

...You can try and nitpick inconsistency...

Inconsistency is the bane of any solid argument.  I understood your meaning quite well, I feel it is you who do not understand my meaning.

Tolkien's true life work was the Silmarillion.  The mythology and history he created was the basis for his LOTR trilogy, everything in the trilogy has some connection to the Silmarillion.  Long before Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit were written, this was the vision of Tolkien's world.  Galadriel and Celeborn, Elrond, the kings of Numenor, the line of Isildur, the creation of the rings, all were laid out in the silmarillion before the trilogy was written.  To discount this is to discount everything that came after it.  Your information on the subject is sorely lacking in this area.  Opinion you may have, but it is an undeducated opinion at best.

[Lughsan35]

andorman01 wrote...

I don't feel like starting a ****storm so I'll just leave it as I strongly disagree, and I feel that you are doing a great discredit to Tolkien by judging his works when you have barely scratched the surface of his material.  I personally can't stand it when anyone tries to pass off source material as if it were more relevant than the actual works or words of the author, but I digress.

I do feel the need to address this comment however, for I feel it lies at the heart of why I cannot accept your arguments as valid-

MerinTB wrote...
The only flaw I saw out of the Lord of the Rings for the elves was that they left the world when it needed them (again, I don't think Tolkien intended for them to be read as overly arrogant - my interpretation).  Others have brought up that an elf killed someone or a group of elves did this evil dead or that an elf leader once did a horrible thing - and I call them outliers, as in they are not even close to the norm for how Tolkien has created the elves of his fantasy.
You can try and nitpick inconsistency, but let me help you on what I mean - Superman, as I used him, is a symbol of a fictional being written as having way too many good qualities that are not at all balanced by their few bad qualities.
It's not contradictory - your understanding of my meaning is off is all.

...You can try and nitpick inconsistency...

Inconsistency is the bane of any solid argument.  I understood your meaning quite well, I feel it is you who do not understand my meaning.

Tolkien's true life work was the Silmarillion.  The mythology and history he created was the basis for his LOTR trilogy, everything in the trilogy has some connection to the Silmarillion.  Long before Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit were written, this was the vision of Tolkien's world.  Galadriel and Celeborn, Elrond, the kings of Numenor, the line of Isildur, the creation of the rings, all were laid out in the silmarillion before the trilogy was written.  To discount this is to discount everything that came after it.  Your information on the subject is sorely lacking in this area.  Opinion you may have, but it is an undeducated opinion at best.

The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Contemporary of Tolkien that did it better CS Lewis.  Prior Authors that wrote of Elves and other fantasy stuff and did it better, The Brothers Grimm, Virgil, Homer, Shakespear, Blake, and the oral traditions of the norse skjalds and more importantly the Irish Fomorian Cycle and the Ulster Cycle.  

You see in those last legends there is a evil race of balrogs big super ugly subhumans (re: orcs) and their leader Balor had a SINGLE EVIL EYE that would gaze on his enemies and cause despair and even kill.

Oh my.. wonder where Dear Old JRR got his ideas....

Modifié par Lughsan35, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:54 .

[andorman01]

Lughsan35 wrote...
The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Wow, can make yourself look like more of an ignorant jackass?  I'm guessing yes, but it would be hard to do!

[Inakhia]

I'm still feeling like the original question is misguided. Then again perfection as such always rankles on me because its purely subjective. Long lived pretty humanoid beings with pointy ears in generic fantasy are usually going to be called 'elves'. What a story does with them beyond the generic label is what makes a story good or bad, original, referential or outright plagiarism.

I don't particularly like Tolkien elves, I loved the overall story, but always find it more than slightly depressing. Everything once grand and great and beautiful has to pass for humanity. Pssshhh.



Liking Tolkien's elves is one thing, liking them to the point your only going to refer all other 'elves' in comparison back to them, without letting the others ever stand on their own feet ...? is bad.

[Godeshus]

andorman01 wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...
The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Wow, can make yourself look like more of an ignorant jackass?  I'm guessing yes, but it would be hard to do!

Translation:

"I don't really think tolkien is all that he's cracked out to be"

"You're a stupid ****ing moron and deserve to die"

ahhh, e-thugs.  You truly have no idea how silly YOU look when picking apart and disecting a fictional novel written decades ago for kids, then imposing these "facts of tolkien lore" as an argument for, well...opinion? tbh, I don't even know what you're trying to argue. Whatever it is, though, it's gone beyond nerdy. It seems that what you are saying is that unless you have a deep understanding of the Silmarillion, you can't possibly have any weight behind your opinions of tldr. 

Dude, it's just a series of books. You're talking about it as though it were a Bible for some mystical cult.  There are plenty of great works in fantasy before and after Tolkien. Who likes what more is a matter of opinion. Tldr was good, but it wasn't the Apex of english fantasy literature.

You, sir, need to tone down the nerdiness a bit.

Modifié par Godeshus, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:58 .

[Lughsan35]

Godeshus wrote...

andorman01 wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...
The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Wow, can make yourself look like more of an ignorant jackass?  I'm guessing yes, but it would be hard to do!

Translation:

"I don't really think tolkien is all that he's cracked out to be"

"You're a stupid ****ing moron and deserve to die"

ahhh, e-thugs.

Really ? See the edits.  The Tolkien fanbois refuse to see that he really isn't all that.. but whatever.

[andorman01]

Godeshus wrote...

andorman01 wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...
The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Wow, can make yourself look like more of an ignorant jackass?  I'm guessing yes, but it would be hard to do!

Translation:

"I don't really think tolkien is all that he's cracked out to be"

"You're a stupid ****ing moron and deserve to die"

ahhh, e-thugs.

So this is what it devolves to, empty posts and flames?  You guys don't even know exactly what we are debating, or that we've been going back and forth awhile now, you just butt in with reactionary attacks on me.  Despite its abrasive nature, I actually enjoy a semi-intellectual face off with someone like MerinTB, compared to flame wars with children.

[Lughsan35]

andorman01 wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

andorman01 wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...
The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Wow, can make yourself look like more of an ignorant jackass?  I'm guessing yes, but it would be hard to do!

Translation:

"I don't really think tolkien is all that he's cracked out to be"

"You're a stupid ****ing moron and deserve to die"

ahhh, e-thugs.

So this is what it devolves to, empty posts and flames?  You guys don't even know exactly what we are debating, or that we've been going back and forth awhile now, you just butt in with reactionary attacks on me.  Despite its abrasive nature, I actually enjoy a semi-intellectual face off with someone like MerinTB, compared to flame wars with children.

Sorry I made edits for you that you refuse to read as they make your position weaker

The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The
Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as
other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others
have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Contemporary
of Tolkien that did it better CS Lewis.  Prior Authors that wrote of
Elves and other fantasy stuff and did it better, The Brothers Grimm,
Virgil, Homer, Shakespear, Blake, and the oral traditions of the norse
skjalds and more importantly the Irish Fomorian Cycle and the Ulster
Cycle.  

You see in those last legends there is a evil race of
balrogs big super ugly subhumans (re: orcs) and their leader Balor had
a SINGLE EVIL EYE that would gaze on his enemies and cause despair and
even kill.

Oh my.. wonder where Dear Old JRR got his ideas....

So please don't tell me I don't know where I am coming from.   I am more widely read than most people hereabouts.

[marshalleck]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

andorman01 wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...
The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Wow, can make yourself look like more of an ignorant jackass?  I'm guessing yes, but it would be hard to do!

Translation:

"I don't really think tolkien is all that he's cracked out to be"

"You're a stupid ****ing moron and deserve to die"

ahhh, e-thugs.

Really ? See the edits.  The Tolkien fanbois refuse to see that he really isn't all that.. but whatever.

You can't really compare oral traditions to a piece of modern fiction. I've read the sagas and eddas myself, and they aren't nearly as detailed as Tolkien's work by virtue of the very fact that they are in some cases approaching one thousand years old and so much of it is lost forever. The fact that Tolkien was inspired by them doesn't make them better than or inferior to his work. It's apples and oranges.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 décembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[Godeshus]

 holy crap there was 3 posts in the time it took to add to mine. Oh well.

andorman01 wrote...


So this is what it devolves to, empty posts and flames?  You guys don't even know exactly what we are debating, or that we've been going back and forth awhile now, you just butt in with reactionary attacks on me.  Despite its abrasive nature, I actually enjoy a semi-intellectual face off with someone like MerinTB, compared to flame wars with children.

andorman01 wrote...

Wow, can make yourself look like more of an ignorant jackass?  I'm guessing yes, but it would be hard to do!

[andorman01]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Sorry I made edits for you that you refuse to read as they make your position weaker

The TLD:R Version.

Guys! You Can't understand Tolkien without reading his OUTLINE on his stories that he wrote so poorly.

The
Bottom line is Tolkien is given too much credit by too many people as
other authors were doing similiar work much early than he.  And others
have done the exact same work since, BETTER than he did.

Contemporary
of Tolkien that did it better CS Lewis.  Prior Authors that wrote of
Elves and other fantasy stuff and did it better, The Brothers Grimm,
Virgil, Homer, Shakespear, Blake, and the oral traditions of the norse
skjalds and more importantly the Irish Fomorian Cycle and the Ulster
Cycle.  

You see in those last legends there is a evil race of
balrogs big super ugly subhumans (re: orcs) and their leader Balor had
a SINGLE EVIL EYE that would gaze on his enemies and cause despair and
even kill.

Oh my.. wonder where Dear Old JRR got his ideas....

So please don't tell me I don't know where I am coming from.   I am more widely read than most people hereabouts.

So you editted your post after I replied ok...

And the points you made have nothing to do with what MerinBT and I were discussing.

Modifié par andorman01, 08 décembre 2009 - 07:10 .

[T1l]

Keep it civil, guys. There's no need for the thread to devolve into petty bickering. You'll just end up getting the thread locked. Respect that others may have differing opinions, and whilst you might not agree with them, they're entitled to it. Just accept that and move on if you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.



The Dragon Age boards are slowly degenerating due to lax moderation; let’s try to keep a level of mutual respect, not just for each other, but for the people at Bioware who were nice enough to produce Dragon Age and open these boards for our use. Think before you post.

[Godeshus]

andorman01 wrote...

So you editted your post after I replied ok...

And the points you made have nothing to do with what MerinBT and I were discussing.

No, but I take insult that you're saying that people who haven't read the Silmarillion have less of an opinion than you. 

[Godeshus]

T1l wrote...

Keep it civil, guys. There's no need for the thread to devolve into petty bickering. You'll just end up getting the thread locked. Respect that others may have differing opinions, and whilst you might not agree with them, they're entitled to it. Just accept that and move on if you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion.

The Dragon Age boards are slowly degenerating due to lax moderation; let’s try to keep a level of mutual respect, not just for each other, but for the people at Bioware who were nice enough to produce Dragon Age and open these boards for our use. Think before you post.

E-Thug.

[andorman01]

Godeshus wrote...

andorman01 wrote...

So you editted your post after I replied ok...

And the points you made have nothing to do with what MerinBT and I were discussing.

No, but I take insult that you're saying that people who haven't read the Silmarillion have less of an opinion than you. 

Wasn't directed toward you

Again, you don't know what we were debating.  I simply felt that the points MerinBT were trying to make couldn't be taken as valid if he hadn't read the Silmarillion - his position being the elves were perfect supermen.  Without full knowledge of the debate I can understand wher you misunderstood.
 
If you are going to debate the mythology of Tolkien, it would help if you've read all of it would it not?

[Godeshus]

andorman01 wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

andorman01 wrote...

So you editted your post after I replied ok...

And the points you made have nothing to do with what MerinBT and I were discussing.

No, but I take insult that you're saying that people who haven't read the Silmarillion have less of an opinion than you. 

Wasn't directed toward you

Again, you don't know what we were debating.  I simply felt that the points MerinBT were trying to make couldn't be taken as valid if he hadn't read the Silmarillion - his position being the elves were perfect supermen.  Without full knowledge of the debate I can understand wher you misunderstood.
 
If you are going to debate the mythology of Tolkien, it would help if you've read all of it would it not?

Too true. My apologies, goodman.

[andorman01]

No need, its the internet, its hard to type out exactly how I feel and think, and sometimes a strong position can be misconstrued as hosility.

[Dahelia]

I don't like Tolkien elves at all...I dislike them with a passion. I think I might have this deep hatred because my friend totally ruined it for me. I think Bioware did a great job with the elves...and to the person who says Dalish elves look like ******....what about Legolas?