361 réponses à ce sujet

[P_k_r]

Oh by the way, even though I have defended Tolkien's elves and the man himself, I can definitely say that there ARE better works out there. The Professor is well-known and respected because he paved the way for others and built a deep world, with it's history, mythology, culture - but that's about it. I view Tolkien more as a world-builder than an actual author, if you understand what I mean. His style is outdated and the way the story evolves is quite slow. A modern author could fit in those 1300something pages into 400-500 tops and still get the message across. But, that is what the beauty of Tolkien is to some, including me.



So yeah, saying that Tolkien is inferior when compared to X modern author makes little sense. That's like saying, H.G.Wells sux, Asimov is better. Well duh, one just gave the general idea, the others developed it. Myself, I prefer reading everything, be it new, old, sci-fi, fantasy, thriller, whatever, as long as II enjoy it - I'll read it.

[MerinTB]

andorman01 wrote...

If you are going to debate the mythology of Tolkien, it would help if you've read all of it would it not?

It just isn't going to happen.  I cannot tolerate the way Tolkien writes, I don't care how much work, how loved by lots of people, or how deep his writing is.  It fails on the level that I do not enjoy reading it.

You cannot tell me that you cannot accurately analyze Henry V without analyzing Henry VI, are you?  Each piece of literature can (and should) be take on it's own account.  Even in ongoing series.

And you most certainly can rely on the expert opinion and analysis of others to base your judgement of another work on.  I trust what history books tell me about events in history without having to, myself, read the original source material.  I trust what Nature and Science tell me without reading the research papers of the scientists that the magazines are reporting on.  I trust what archaeologists tell me about ancient civilizations without actually living in said civilizations.

To say I have to have read every piece of writing one man wrote to know who the man was and what his writing was about is ludicrous.  There are many, many books on Tolkien, many papers.  I'd rather read well-written analysis of the man and his work than subject myself to more horrible, painfully composed prose.

I don't care about the source material or the script when I'm watching a film, the film itself is what I'm experiencing.  Was there more stuff behind the story of the film?  So what?  The film needs to stand on its own - if you have to read the script and then the prequel and sequel novels to the film for the film to make sense, it's a bad film.

If I have to read a series of fictional mythological histories to "really get" what Tolkien meant with his novel (yes, I know the "trilogy" was really one piece broken up by publishers), then the novel has failed.  And it failed audiences of the novel for over twenty years until Tolkien's son compiled his work, finished it, and published it.

So no one understood LotR until the Silmarillion was finished by Christopher twenty-some years after the release of LotR. Tolkien's greatest work was his unfinished, unpublished (until after his death) work?  A work that was rejected by his publishers (for whatever reasons)?

A novel has to stand on it's own as a piece of writing - if you need a history essay (even a fictional, mythological history essay compilation) to understand the novel, the novel has failed.

[Godeshus]

Dahelia wrote...

I don't like Tolkien elves at all...I dislike them with a passion. I think I might have this deep hatred because my friend totally ruined it for me. I think Bioware did a great job with the elves...and to the person who says Dalish elves look like ******....what about Legolas?

I think Legolas actually HAS a pussie.

Modifié par Godeshus, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:25 .

[inSPECTRE Shepard_]

 Yeah I prefer Tolkein's vision of Elves, the elves in this game are just little gimps.

[hangmans tree]

And I prefer elves the way A. Sapkowski described

At the verge of extinction. Vindictive, full of hate towards humans...and yet so proud they would rather die than accept help from humans.



BTW about dwarves - if thay cant dream and go into fade...while you play a dwarven origin - do you enter the fade at 'a certain' moment in the game? IF yes, how so?

[th3warr1or]

To everyone defending Dalish elves.

Look @ Cammen..

I rest my case.

I **** his girlfriend every time simply because I hate the little ******. A true wuss(and a goddamn ugly) one if I ever saw one. At least Legolas has his skill + looks. He may look effeminate but at least he looks pretty doing so.

Cammen doesn't look manly, has no skills(none of the Dalish do for that matter), and is just a big ****. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

Modifié par th3warr1or, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:18 .

[krim80]

I dident see any fat elves in the game. I according to your assain fiend elves are considering beautiful by other races.

[Rostas7]

There are not even fat people lol,let alone fat elves. The only thing that's fat is the actual time of gameplay. xD

[Tirigon]

@ Kaosgirl: The elves did, in general, fight the orcs and balrogs better than the humans did, though the greatest warriors ever were humans, not elves. Besides of that, I already pointed out that Tolkien elves are weaklings compared to the elves in other stories. In one of my favourite books, there is a dark elf killing about 100 enemies in less than a minute. Thats what I would call unrealistically strong, not the tolkien elves.



To the discussion about Tolkien: I agree that there are authors who write stories that are more funny, more exciting, more thrilling or better in some other way than Tolkien´s. And surely every modern fantasy novel i have ever read (and thats a lot) is easier to read.

But I still think that there is no author who ever created a more complex world, put more effort in developing it and wrote in a style as historical as Tolkien. After all, you can even study the elven language invented by Tolkien in some schools now... Which other author ever managed something like that?

The only authors known to me who did even come close to a world as complex as Tolkien´s are Terry Pratchett with Discworld and Robert Jordan with his Wheel Of Time, and even they didnt invent an entire language.

However, its another question if you like Tolkien´s style. I do, but I can well understand everyone who doesnt. Nevertheless you should respect what he did and not just name 10 authors that you consider better without even saying why they are so.

[Smkswazi]

I tolerate elves i would weary much like to experience some other races instead.

[Brunopolis]

I think people just want to be Legolas from LotR. Super cool and awesome elves that are simply better than the other races in everything. Like the Night Elves in WoW which were taller, more muscular, and more agile(at least in appearance) than humans so everybody loved them. In this game they actually look smaller and more frail than humans so people want to complain.

[P_k_r]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Kaosgirl: The elves did, in general, fight the orcs and balrogs better than the humans did, though the greatest warriors ever were humans, not elves. Besides of that, I already pointed out that Tolkien elves are weaklings compared to the elves in other stories. In one of my favourite books, there is a dark elf killing about 100 enemies in less than a minute. Thats what I would call unrealistically strong, not the tolkien elves.

?!

Have you heard of Fingolfin? He challenged Morgoth, a god, an immortal being and managed to injure him seven times. Ecthelion slew the Lord of the Balrogs, a demi-god. If that's not powerful, I don't know what is.

Modifié par P_k_r, 08 décembre 2009 - 05:01 .

[keesio74]

Tirigon wrote...
. Besides of that, I already pointed out that Tolkien elves are weaklings compared to the elves in other stories. In one of my favourite books, there is a dark elf killing about 100 enemies in less than a minute. Thats what I would call unrealistically strong, not the tolkien elves.
 

I didn't read the books but in the LOTR movies, I thought the elves were pretty bad ass. Legolas was a one man wreaking crew (to the point where it was a bit comical and ridiculous), and the Elven fighters defending Helm's Deep looked like they knew how to take care of business.

[Kalcalan]

Those who think that Tolkien couldn't write wouldn't know good literature if it hit them in the face with a shovel.

Tirigon wrote...

How should LOTR be anti-industrial? Its fantasy (and the very best in my opinion), nothing political!!!

Tolkien wrote that his work was not an allegory because he didn't want people to over simplify its themes and make basic assumptions that would reduce its meaning. It doesn't mean that the Lord of the Rings doesn't have any relevance to the real world. Tolkien didn't write escapist literature.

There are many books which have been written about Tolkien's works and which can help anyone get a better understanding of his work. I'd suggest reading Patrick Curry's book entitled Defending Middle-Earth: Tolkien, Myth and Modernity. It is a good read without being too complex. Looking for a more comprehensive or academic book you should read Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-Earth. If you want a more complex approach you should definitely consider The Individuated Hobbit: Jung, Tolkien, and the Archetypes of Middle-Earth by Timothy R. O'Neill.

[Dark83]

I think movie Arwen was hot.
You can see her bewbs in other movies. :innocent:

Wait, what're we talking about again?

[Curlain]

An agrument for more elven romance in the game it seems

Modifié par Curlain, 08 décembre 2009 - 06:49 .

[Tirigon]

I know of both Fingolfin and Ectheilion, and sure they were strong. But it was a human, Turgon, who slew most balrogs, it was a human, Turin, who killed Glaurung, it was Hurin (surprise, a human) who was regarded as the best Warrior and greatest hero ever - and so forth. So the elves do surely have power, but they arent so much stronger than the humans. Those you mentioned are exceptions. And especially the elves from Middle Earth were a lot weaker and not as wise as the Noldor.



@ Keesio: You are right about the movies, but in the book the elves are a lot weaker. And besides, in Helms Deep Legolas killed 42 enemies in an entire night, not 100 in a minute. So even there he is weaker.

[Dahelia]

th3warr1or wrote...

To everyone defending Dalish elves.

Look @ Cammen..

I rest my case.

I **** his girlfriend every time simply because I hate the little ******. A true wuss(and a goddamn ugly) one if I ever saw one. At least Legolas has his skill + looks. He may look effeminate but at least he looks pretty doing so.

Cammen doesn't look manly, has no skills(none of the Dalish do for that matter), and is just a big ****. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

My Dalish elf has better skills than Legolas ever would...Legolas was good and all but COME ON....you are complaining about the looks of a Dalish elf but think Legolas is manly because he can shoot an arrow from a bow?? Please...I think main problem with these elves and why people don't like them is because they took the precious elf and tore them apart, they are no longer immortal, they were slaves of man, and they don't  go with your ideas of the horrible Tolkien elves whom still live in the 50s. I fought with my friend constantly about Tolkien elves and she made me hate them more.

[Grell74]

Hmm was hoping to see some thought provoking intelligent posts here to entertain me at work...



Of course LOTR can stand on its own merits however its surely a good thing that a reader craving a better understanding and wanting to know why Frodo cries out to Elbereth and Shelob flees, or the significance of Aragorn's lineage, the history of Elrond, Galadriel etc can turn to other source material like the Silmarillion. I find it ironic that MerinTB dismisses Tolkien’s the Silmarillion, a comprehensive history of the elves and spends several paragraphs feebly trying to argue a need to take works in isolation in a thread comparing DA:O and Tolkien and has the audacity to have a signature “Not suitable for people with limited attention spans.”



Hilarious but I suppose this is what inteweb forums are.

[DaeFaron]

keesio74 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
. Besides of that, I already pointed out that Tolkien elves are weaklings compared to the elves in other stories. In one of my favourite books, there is a dark elf killing about 100 enemies in less than a minute. Thats what I would call unrealistically strong, not the tolkien elves.
 

I didn't read the books but in the LOTR movies, I thought the elves were pretty bad ass. Legolas was a one man wreaking crew (to the point where it was a bit comical and ridiculous), and the Elven fighters defending Helm's Deep looked like they knew how to take care of business.

The only problem, is the elves never went to Helms Deep in the books, the horsemen were with the king, and a large force of Infantry came to save the day.

Brunopolis wrote...

I think people just want to be
Legolas from LotR. Super cool and awesome elves that are simply better
than the other races in everything. Like the Night Elves in WoW which
were taller, more muscular, and more agile(at least in appearance) than
humans so everybody loved them. In this game they actually look smaller
and more frail than humans so people want to complain.

Meh at the Night Elves, oversized ears much?

[Kaosgirl]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Kaosgirl: The elves did, in general, fight the orcs and balrogs better than the humans did, though the greatest warriors ever were humans, not elves.

Feh to the first.
And to the second, you prove my point:  elves "cap out" earlier than humans, in spite of having centuries more experience.  The Best Elf is lesser than The Best Human.  Why?

Tirigon wrote...
Besides of that, I already pointed out that Tolkien elves are weaklings compared to the elves in other stories. In one of my favourite books, there is a dark elf killing about 100 enemies in less than a minute. Thats what I would call unrealistically strong, not the tolkien elves.

And Richard Rahl would still kick his ass without breaking a sweat.  But what some mary-sue-like character in some random novel can do was beside the point I was making - offering an explanation for why Elves aren't *all* strictly superior to the best humanity can offer, in stories where they're not.
(Also why, as you admitted yourself, the best of the elven race are lesser than the best of the human race.)

Tirigon wrote...
But I still think that there is no author who ever created a more complex world, put more effort in developing it and wrote in a style as historical as Tolkien. After all, you can even study the elven language invented by Tolkien in some schools now... Which other author ever managed something like that?

I don't know if he's discounted on grounds of 'collaberation' or not, but I'll offer up Gene Roddenberry anyway.

[Wild Maiden]

For those of you bashing Tolkien, even if you don't particularly care for his work, you have to appreciate it. The man was a genius who created a new world and spawned an entire genre. Without Tolkien there would be no Dragon Age.

[Kaosgirl]

keesio74 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
. Besides of that, I already pointed out that Tolkien elves are weaklings compared to the elves in other stories. In one of my favourite books, there is a dark elf killing about 100 enemies in less than a minute. Thats what I would call unrealistically strong, not the tolkien elves.
 

I didn't read the books but in the LOTR movies, I thought the elves were pretty bad ass. Legolas was a one man wreaking crew (to the point where it was a bit comical and ridiculous), and the Elven fighters defending Helm's Deep looked like they knew how to take care of business.

(Differences between the movies and the books aside...)

Bear in mind, they were standing beside the dregs of the Rohirim people at the time.  It's not hard to look impressive when you're being compared to a boy who's barely old enough to pick up a sword in the first place on your left, and a man who's using the sword as a makeshift cane on your right.

Would you say the Riders were any less impressive when they finally showed up? 

[Borys the Dragon]

I am willing to accept the argument that there is a very real difference between, what has become, the traditional 'High" Elf and Tolkien's Elves. Therefore I will say that DA:O's Elves are vastly superior to the Elven stereotype. I love the alternative representation and feel that the haughty, beautiful and skilled Elves that appear in so many fantasy works devalue the other races. In 'realistic' fantasy and oppsed to 'high' fantasy these kind of Elves have no place and ideed it seems many modern fantasy writers are doing away with Elves altogether.

However, I agree with many of the previous posts stating that DA:O Elves are weak. Give me some Darksun Elves or at least some Dark Elves from Warhammer. Who doesn't love Witch Elves?

[fwubqrt]

I like the elves, but one thing that bothers me is the height. I don't know why, but it gets on my nerves.