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Does Anyone else prefer Tolkien's Elves?


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#351
Nokturnal Lex

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David Gaider wrote...

Dwarves do not enter the Fade when they dream, yes. This doesn't mean they are barred from the Fade (as is evident from the fact that a demon can force them in), they simply do not go there naturally.

There's a very good reason for why they don't enter the Fade. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but I will say that it has nothing to do with their resistance to magic. Rather the reverse: their resistance to magic comes from the fact that they don't enter the Fade -- which also allows them to mine dangerous lyrium better than other races would.

Will we ever discuss the reason they don't enter the Fade? Possibly. If that makes you pout, then sorry. Image IPB


Here I assumed centuries of mining lyrium caused them to be granted an immunity to magic allowing them to evolve to never naturally goto the fade due to their immune systems' rejecting magic instead of them evolving from some species that was never able to goto the fade to begin with. 

Evolution FTW?

#352
MR-9

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Yes but this is about elves.

#353
Jhegan

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That took a long time to read through... There's very little point in responding to the original post, but I'll ignore the "This is Tolkien! No, this is Tolkien!" that has dominated this thread.

I'm fairly surprised that there has been only a little reference to what was earlier labeled as "generic elves" of the modern fantasy era.  D&D was huge in shaping how elves were portrayed in so many following fantasy settings, largely in gaming (No, I have no proof, and this isn't about proving anything, so discredit me now and ignore the rest if you so wish).

A friend of mine was introduced to D&D along with me and her being a Tolkien fangirl wanted to play an elf, because in Tolkien, they're so rockin' awesome, right? Turns out she nearly quit upon character creation until it was explained to her that there's no possible way that somebody would be allowed to play a Tolkien elf in a roleplaying game where you're expected to play alongside Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, etc. She was perfectly willing to accept the D&D elf when it became clear they weren't intended to be the same thing at all, though perhaps a mere shell somewhat resembling the original product. There are Tolkien like elves in D&D, however. They're a fey-type creature found in the Epic Level Handbook and they're called the LeShay.
In that regard, Tolkien elves would fit in DA:O just fine, but it has to be realized they would be unplayable, and completely different from DA:O elves. You wouldn't really expect to play one of those, right?

I think I heard of elves being taller than humans in one book (Terry Brooks, I think... never finished Tolkien, so I can't remember that description if I ever got to it). Being used to D&D, Everquest, and other games (Incliding NWN, which was a D&D based game, therefore: short elves), I expect elves of the 'generic' genre to be slightly shorter than humans.

Of the elves in DA:O, I really like what they did with the stereotype. They didn't throw it out the window considering that elves would naturally be found in the forests if they hadn't been enslaved, but their current conflict really shows a world with moral strife. For creating a whole new world, I think they did a damn good job.

To say whether I prefer the Tolkien elves or the DA:O elves would be silly. They're not comparable. They share a descriptor of 'elf' with some physical resemblance, but because they're in completely different worlds, anything goes. They're not attempting to be comparable. They're comparable to the elves of MMO's, other fantasy games, D&D, probably many other fantasy books, so long as there's similarity, but there's hardly, if any, similarity to Tolkien's elves. To say that "They shouldn't be called elves if they're not Tolkien elves!" is just as ridiculous as the modern image of elf seen in modern games and books matches the one seen in Dragon Age, with different history and thus, a different society.

Largely... this thread is silly.

Modifié par Jhegan, 13 décembre 2009 - 04:38 .


#354
MR-9

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I don't know what it is with elves and long life spans, I guess since we made prettier versions of Humans they should live for a long ass time.

#355
MerinTB

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Tirigon wrote...
DAMN YOU! You really did it......


Despite what a few debate "opponents" in other threads try to paint my postings as, I do read what I respond to and try to answer questions as well as stick to topics.  Try.  I try.  Sometimes I fail at the sticking to thread topics.

But well... You say you love Shakespears language. I love Tolkien´s. Both in the book im reading in english and in the german translation. I do also like Tolkien´s story. And yes, I DO enjoy Tolkien´s poems and the "lengthy town descriptions". And I love his songs. I do even have a CD-set by the Tolkien ensemble, where you can actually hear the songs sung and have an orchestra and all - and I think it´s great, though I usually like Metal and Rock more than classic. His songs and poems are mostly funny and good to read.
Well, I skipped a few of the worse songs on the second reading, I admit it, but I wouldnt even consider disliking his work of 1000 pages alone in  LotR, + all his other stuff only because I dont like 2 pages of a certain song or the 20th town description.


Well, as Fitzgerald said - "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two
opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the
ability to function."

So I have to be able to believe that Tolkien's prose style is abyssmal and also accept that intelligent people can love it.  And still be able to make posts.

Maybe I'm second-rate, as I'm still not seeing it.  But I have to take you at your word.  Have you read it LotR more than once?  What other author's writing styles do you love?  Maybe there's a major difference in taste here.

And you LISTEN to people singing those songs? Ack, I'm not meaning to insult you, but that's what I would consider going against the Geneva Conventions and all international bans on torture!
;)

Back on topic - I prefer that the elves of the story of DA for so many reasons to almost all elves I've experienced before.  You have the difference of the beaten and second-class City Elves, their plight and yet strength of spirit, contrasted to the wilderness abiding, clinging to ancient and long dead traditions and myths of glory of the Dalish.  A poor comparison would be to look at Elves as a fantasy take on Jewish history, but two eras juxtaposed on each other.  The (Hebrew kingdoms) immortal Elven nations have fallen, but the Elves have been lead out of the Empire (their Egypt) by their Moses (can't remember the Elf's name) who tried to bring them to a promised land but that, too, fell, so the Elves were on their diaspora across Ferelden (and Thedas?), the Dalish the wanderers believing themselves to be the chosen people who have been tainted by contact with lesser races, but the City Elves being like the Jewish settlers in other nations prior to WWII, tolerated but ghetto'd and treated as lesser.  It's not a perfect comparision by far, but it points ot a powerful history.

#356
Tirigon

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MerinTB wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
DAMN YOU! You really did it......


Despite what a few debate "opponents" in other threads try to paint my postings as, I do read what I respond to and try to answer questions as well as stick to topics.  Try.  I try.  Sometimes I fail at the sticking to thread topics.

Yea, I just wondered you didnt have to admit that you cant explain it. After all, one says that you cant argue about taste.

But well... You say you love Shakespears language. I love Tolkien´s. Both in the book im reading in english and in the german translation. I do also like Tolkien´s story. And yes, I DO enjoy Tolkien´s poems and the "lengthy town descriptions". And I love his songs. I do even have a CD-set by the Tolkien ensemble, where you can actually hear the songs sung and have an orchestra and all - and I think it´s great, though I usually like Metal and Rock more than classic. His songs and poems are mostly funny and good to read.
Well, I skipped a few of the worse songs on the second reading, I admit it, but I wouldnt even consider disliking his work of 1000 pages alone in  LotR, + all his other stuff only because I dont like 2 pages of a certain song or the 20th town description.


Well, as Fitzgerald said - "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two
opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the
ability to function."

So I have to be able to believe that Tolkien's prose style is abyssmal and also accept that intelligent people can love it.  And still be able to make posts.


Ever read Orwells 1984? If so, just use Doublethink, should be easy then.;)

Maybe I'm second-rate, as I'm still not seeing it.  But I have to take you at your word.  Have you read it LotR more than once?  What other author's writing styles do you love?  Maybe there's a major difference in taste here.

Yes, I´ve read LotR at least 3 times, I´ve seen the movies like 10 times or more, and I played all the EA-Games about LotR. (They were disappointing, however.)
Other authors I like are for example: Terry Pratchett, Robert Jordan, Sergej Lukianenko, Stan Nicholls, Bernhard Hennen, Markus Heitz, Walter Moers, Wolfgang Hohlbein, George Orwell, Stephenie Myers, .......

And you LISTEN to people singing those songs? Ack, I'm not meaning to insult you, but that's what I would consider going against the Geneva Conventions and all international bans on torture!
;)

Says the guy reading Shakespear voluntarily......  Need to say more?!

Back on topic - I prefer that the elves of the story of DA for so many reasons to almost all elves I've experienced before.  You have the difference of the beaten and second-class City Elves, their plight and yet strength of spirit, contrasted to the wilderness abiding, clinging to ancient and long dead traditions and myths of glory of the Dalish.  A poor comparison would be to look at Elves as a fantasy take on Jewish history, but two eras juxtaposed on each other.  The (Hebrew kingdoms) immortal Elven nations have fallen, but the Elves have been lead out of the Empire (their Egypt) by their Moses (can't remember the Elf's name) who tried to bring them to a promised land but that, too, fell, so the Elves were on their diaspora across Ferelden (and Thedas?), the Dalish the wanderers believing themselves to be the chosen people who have been tainted by contact with lesser races, but the City Elves being like the Jewish settlers in other nations prior to WWII, tolerated but ghetto'd and treated as lesser.  It's not a perfect comparision by far, but it points ot a powerful history.


I think comparing the DAO-elves to jews is a little far-reached.
Nevertheless, I agree they are cool. Im playing a city elf rogue now, and the origin was so much fun. It transported the emotions very well, you really felt all the hate against the human suppressors. Best origin story in my opinion (though I havent tried casteless dwarf and human yet).

#357
Grell74

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You really like the sight of your own words dont you MerinTB? You make up for a lack of substance with tangental musings, listing "I like this, I like that" repetition and random quotes you seem to hope might make you appear intelligent.



However you did accidently stumble across a vaguely interesting and almost on topic point. Tolkien explicitly stated that he used the real world Jewish history and character as the inspiration for the Dwarves. Of course its rather precarious ground in our PC, post-holocaust world so I wont go into greater detail and derail this poor thread any further.

#358
MerinTB

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Grell74 wrote...

You really like the sight of your own words dont you MerinTB? You make up for a lack of substance with tangental musings, listing "I like this, I like that" repetition and random quotes you seem to hope might make you appear intelligent.

However you did accidently stumble across a vaguely interesting and almost on topic point. Tolkien explicitly stated that he used the real world Jewish history and character as the inspiration for the Dwarves. Of course its rather precarious ground in our PC, post-holocaust world so I wont go into greater detail and derail this poor thread any further.


Hmmm.

Nah, I'll pass. :)

#359
casadechrisso

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I like the way elves are portrayed in DA. Even funnier is, Bioware with their City Elves did exactly what I was doing in my NWN2 mod (which kinda makes me look like a copycat now but I don't mind. :) )

The idea is not new though, I think I'm not the only one who became bored of elven stereotypes from Tolkien or D&D. For me, it was The Witcher that brought some light into the darkness of stereotypes, I liked the idea of an elven/nonhuman resistance against human oppression in that game, and DA is yet another game that follows that new road. The Dalish though were already too clichée again for me.

I wouldn't mind icelandic elves that live under stones too, but I think that's still a long way...

#360
Tirigon

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Why is everyone comparing the elves in Witcher to those of DAO? In my opinion, the Scoia´tael dont have much in common with the Dalish or the city elves.... If they really need to be compared, I´d rather compare them with the elves of Tolkien, for they are a proud, strong people fighting their suppressors. Only difference is that the Order of the Flaming Rose fights better than the orcs, and that their suppressors are humans, thus making their fight less heroic in a human´s point of view.

But their way with light armor, archery and the form of their swords is very much like the Mirkwood or Lorien elves.

#361
Shepard Lives

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I prefer the Dragon Age elves. I like their concept... "Lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty".

#362
DarthCaine

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I prefer Andrzej Sapkowski's elves (The Witcher)