361 réponses à ce sujet

[Bibdy]

Seifz wrote...

The loading screen tip that says Dwarves don't enter the Fade when they dream, and the parts of the game that force your Dwarf to enter the Fade!  Plus, the Gray Warden dreams that your Dwarf very much experiences.

Ah. Touche.

Maybe those are just special cases, though I suppose there's no acknowledgement from a Dwarf PC that he's just crapped his pants since that was his first ever experience dreaming.

So...I dunno

[Deathstyk85]

i love how people say "da elves arnt what elves are spose to be!thats not how elves are"

well they are fictional, so whoever tells the story can shape them however they see fit. you know santas elves are short people who are used for slave labor. so saying that you dont like it because thats not how they should be, what you mean is, you dont like it because its not what you are used to.

[Slaign]

Warden Dreams are telepathic communication from the Arch Demon. Dwarves can still receive them. Why they get sucked into the fade at a certain part I'm not clear on, I think it's an oversight.

I assume Dwarves receive dreams like real humans do. Crazy nonsense that comes from your neurons firing while you sleep. I assume human dreams are primarily this, but they are connected to the fade and can enter it through dreams with lyrium, and be approached by demons and spirits.

I don't see what's so perplexing about it besides how a dwarf goes to the fade in the story. Dwarfs have normal dreams. Humans and Elves have magical dreams.

Elven immortality, if magical, is tainted and degraded by humanity. If hyper-immunity it's compromised by human viruses and bacteria.

I dunno. I approach it with creativity instead of criticism. I just try to explain it myself if there is a hole. If I turn out to be wrong when it's addressed, fine, but till then it's better than letting myself get pulled out of the story.

Modifié par Slaign, 05 décembre 2009 - 08:49 .

[Deathstyk85]

Bibdy wrote...

Seifz wrote...

The loading screen tip that says Dwarves don't enter the Fade when they dream, and the parts of the game that force your Dwarf to enter the Fade!  Plus, the Gray Warden dreams that your Dwarf very much experiences.

Ah. Touche.

Maybe those are just special cases, though I suppose there's no acknowledgement from a Dwarf PC that he's just crapped his pants since that was his first ever experience dreaming.

So...I dunno

if you take oghren with you to the fade, he complains and talks about how it isnt natural for a dwarf to be there, and how he feels sick being there.(i did orzammar before the mage tower) and i dont recall, but im pretty sure he hurls too. lol

[Bullets McDeath]

I think maybe Dwarves just have regular dreams. I think the Warden dreams are more like psychic visions, I don't know that it would be necesarry for those to be in the Fade. I agree the issue of Dwarves not going to the Fade is not discussed in enough detail. But I think it's just an extrapolation of their seperation from magic; magic comes from the Fade, Dwarves don't access the Fade, they get no magic. Dwaves may even have a spirit real of their own that they visit in leiu of the Fade... or, as I always imagined, they just have normal dreams like you or I. Some more explanation would be nice though.

[Taritu]

Just remember, Tolkein's take wasn't cliched when he first wrote it. I like both, frankly. People misread Tolkein's elves too, as far as that goes. They are taller, stronger, better looking and more magical than humans. They are better smiths than the dwarves, etc...



Some earlier RPGs have these sorts of elves. For example, Warhammer RPG elves, while not stronger than humans, are basically superior in every other way - smarter, faster, better looking, live longer and so on.



But given all the whining about dwarves having an "unfair" 10% magic resistance that other races didn't have, can you imagine the whining if those sort of elves were the in the game?

[Behindyounow]

I prefer DAs Elves. I hate Elves, and it was good to see them put in their rightful place for once.

[Slaign]

outlaworacle wrote...

I think maybe Dwarves just have regular dreams. I think the Warden dreams are more like psychic visions, I don't know that it would be necesarry for those to be in the Fade. I agree the issue of Dwarves not going to the Fade is not discussed in enough detail. But I think it's just an extrapolation of their seperation from magic; magic comes from the Fade, Dwarves don't access the Fade, they get no magic. Dwaves may even have a spirit real of their own that they visit in leiu of the Fade... or, as I always imagined, they just have normal dreams like you or I. Some more explanation would be nice though.

This is why I never questioned it. Why would you think "Dwarves don't go to the fade? Then how do they dream?" Ummm... Do people think they go to the Fade in real life? Do they not dream? Cause if I can dream without a spirit realm connected to me, I don't get confused on how a Dwarf can too. Humans and Elves in this game just have that extra bit of crazy going on.

[Seifz]

Slaign wrote...

Warden Dreams are telepathic communication from the Arch Demon. Dwarves can still receive them. Why they get sucked into the fade at a certain part I'm not clear on, I think it's an oversight.

I assume Dwarves receive dreams like real humans do. Crazy nonsense that comes from your neurons firing while you sleep. I assume human dreams are primarily this, but they are connected to the fade and can enter it through dreams with lyrium, and be approached by demons and spirits.

I don't see what's so perplexing about it besides how a dwarf goes to the fade in the story. Dwarfs have normal dreams. Humans and Elves have magical dreams.

But what is a normal dream in Thedas, and why don't Humans and Elves experience them?  The dreams of Elves and Humans are created by the spirits of the Fade, attempting to mimic reality.  Those spirits who succeed and draw many dreamers become more powerful.  The concept of "neurons firing while you sleep" does not seem to affect Elven or Human dreams at all.  Indeed, I would suggest that the in-game experience in the Fade and the ability for Magi to enter the fade while awake counter the assumption that dreams as we have them in reality exist at all in Thedas.  Thus, it seems weird to say that Dwarves have dreams more akin to our own.

[T1l]

Slaign wrote...

This is why I never questioned it. Why would you think "Dwarves don't go to the fade? Then how do they dream?" Ummm... Do people think they go to the Fade in real life? Do they not dream? Cause if I can dream without a spirit realm connected to me, I don't get confused on how a Dwarf can too. Humans and Elves in this game just have that extra bit of crazy going on.

Simply because this isn't real life and, in game, we’re trying to follow the bouncing ball. This is Dragon Age; and in Dragon Age when spirits or minds aren't in their physical bodies, they're in the Fade. Even the Dog goes to the Fade. When a person dies, where does their consciousness go? To the Fade. Where does a Dwarf go when forced to sleep by a Sloth demon?

So, on one hand we have evidence of them indeed going to the Fade. Yet in an unambiguous statement we have the exact opposite.

[DaeFaron]

Seifz wrote...

It's been a while since I could be bothered to read the books, but I believe that Arwen gave up her immortality to live a mortal life with a human. It wasn't taken from her.

Seriously, how can anyone read those books a second time? The first time was so painful... It's such a great story, and such boring writing! Gah!

I have read the entire trilogy and the hobbit several times. *shrug*

[Slaign]

Seifz wrote...

But what is a normal dream in Thedas, and why don't Humans and Elves experience them?  The dreams of Elves and Humans are created by the spirits of the Fade, attempting to mimic reality.  Those spirits who succeed and draw many dreamers become more powerful.  The concept of "neurons firing while you sleep" does not seem to affect Elven or Human dreams at all.  Indeed, I would suggest that the in-game experience in the Fade and the ability for Magi to enter the fade while awake counter the assumption that dreams as we have them in reality exist at all in Thedas.  Thus, it seems weird to say that Dwarves have dreams more akin to our own.

You're assuming just because this other dimension exists, normal dreams do not? If all you have to do to enter the fade is go to sleep the game would be very different. I think it seems clear that is not how it works.

Humans, Elves, and Dwarves all have normal dreams. Humans and Elves are connected to the fade. That connection is strongest while the conscious mind is not exerting control. During that time, spirits and demons can manipulate the dreams of humans and elves.

If you dose yourself with Lyrium you can then fully exert yourself into the fade and mingle with the spirits.

That's how it all makes sense to me.

[Bullets McDeath]

I definitely agree it would benefit from more explanation. However, I don't see a huge contradiction with dwarves getting *pulled* into the fade, such as if you have Oghren or are a dwarf yourself when you face the Sloth demon. I assume that the Fade is some kind of limbo dimension on it's own and not just the collective virtual space of dreams... although, either way, it has to exist somewhere, so even if Dwarves don't have a natural or biological affinity with it, surely a powerful being in the Fade could take them into it by force.

[Slaign]

T1l wrote...


Simply because this isn't real life and, in game, we’re trying to follow the bouncing ball. This is Dragon Age; and in Dragon Age when spirits or minds aren't in their physical bodies, they're in the Fade. Even the Dog goes to the Fade. When a person dies, where does their consciousness go? To the Fade. Where does a Dwarf go when forced to sleep by a Sloth demon?

So, on one hand we have evidence of them indeed going to the Fade. Yet in an unambiguous statement we have the exact opposite.

But this world is built on the assumption of it working like our own, with the added things they explain. Unless they say so, you don't remove stuff. They never say normal, subconscious dreams don't happen, so why assume they do not? They never clarified how much gravity is on Thedas, but until they do I plan to assume Earth gravity.

[Slaign]

outlaworacle wrote...

I definitely agree it would benefit from more explanation. However, I don't see a huge contradiction with dwarves getting *pulled* into the fade, such as if you have Oghren or are a dwarf yourself when you face the Sloth demon. I assume that the Fade is some kind of limbo dimension on it's own and not just the collective virtual space of dreams... although, either way, it has to exist somewhere, so even if Dwarves don't have a natural or biological affinity with it, surely a powerful being in the Fade could take them into it by force.

I can easily accept that as well, until it's fully explained.

[Randy1012]

I hate Dragon Age's elves because I had the same exact idea about a fantasy world in which elves are subservient to humans like seven years ago, and now, if I ever do anything with it, it will seem like I copied BioWare's idea. :-P

[T1l]

Slaign wrote...

But this world is built on the assumption of it working like our own, with the added things they explain. Unless they say so, you don't remove stuff. They never say normal, subconscious dreams don't happen, so why assume they do not? They never clarified how much gravity is on Thedas, but until they do I plan to assume Earth gravity.

That’s a logical fallacy. You’re claiming that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false; argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Again, we can’t really debate this issue as we don’t have Gaiders’ clarification.

[OTeez]

Not to mention the games talks of this if your a dwarf in the fade. It says it must be due to a very powerful demon to pull a dwarf into the fade, thus that is what is was and is.

[Vajarra]

Randy1083 wrote...

I hate Dragon Age's elves because I had the same exact idea about a fantasy world in which elves are subservient to humans like seven years ago, and now, if I ever do anything with it, it will seem like I copied BioWare's idea. :-P

Not so much elves specifically, but I've never seen racism treated so realistically and with such depth as it is in DA. There's one conversation with another party member in particular that stood out to me (playing an elf).

[Slaign]

T1l wrote...

Slaign wrote...

But this world is built on the assumption of it working like our own, with the added things they explain. Unless they say so, you don't remove stuff. They never say normal, subconscious dreams don't happen, so why assume they do not? They never clarified how much gravity is on Thedas, but until they do I plan to assume Earth gravity.

That’s a logical fallacy. You’re claiming that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false; argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Again, we can’t really debate this issue as we don’t have Gaiders’ clarification.

No, it is not a logical fallacy, because I never said it not being clarified makes it true. I said the world being primarily based on ours with explained changes, it makes more sense to assume things work like ours until explained otherwise.

It's a logical fallacy to say that because they didn't say fadeless dreams exist they must not.

I never insisted what I said was true. I meerly said it was a good assumption, that works well, and I prefer to just go with a logical assumption than let the story fall apart for me.

I'm not saying I know how it works. All that matters to me is there are explainations for how it COULD work, and if it COULD work, there is no hole. I still hope it's cleared up in canon, but I don't see a lack of information as an error.

[ToJKa1]

It is easier to symphatice with an opressed underclass than arrogant super-humans, so yes, i do like elves in Dragon Age. But i always play as non-humans in RPGs if possible.

[Curlain]

Well I think the Witcher protrayed (elves as 2nd class citizens) this earlier (in both books and game) and I think did a great job of showing elves (and dwarves for that matter) and a lower class and strong racism being directed against them. Appart from the City Elf Origin, I actually think the Witcher game did a better job of reflecting  racism against elves, being prevelent in in overheard conversations (though to be fair, the issue of human vs non-human was more central to the Witcher game's plot).

Also, as others mentioned, Tolkien's elves were not generally protrayed as great archers (certainly not the Noldar) it was more that Legolas was a great archer and became the elven archetype. But as others have noted, they were commonly protrayed in the Sillmarlion as being mele fighers in full armour with sword and spears. I do wish they would make elves taller (ths also is an issue in NWN2, their so blasted short, might as well be dwarves sometimes :-)). That said though, I enjoy the lore in DA:O surrounding elves and the mystery with them, such as how they lost their immortality, and what is their connection to the first humans (indicated by elven/human ruins found in the game)

Modifié par Curlain, 05 décembre 2009 - 09:24 .

[Seifz]

DaeFaron wrote...

I have read the entire trilogy and the hobbit several times. *shrug*

I've read The Hobbit several times, too.  I enjoy reading The Hobbit.  It's an entertaining, light read with a good story.  The Lord of the Rings trilogy is just so dull and full of words that don't need to exist!  The story is great (see the movies!), but the writing is just... so... wordy.  Gah!

Slaign wrote...

Seifz wrote...

But what is a normal dream in Thedas, and why don't Humans and Elves experience them?  The dreams of Elves and Humans are created by the spirits of the Fade, attempting to mimic reality.  Those spirits who succeed and draw many dreamers become more powerful.  The concept of "neurons firing while you sleep" does not seem to affect Elven or Human dreams at all.  Indeed, I would suggest that the in-game experience in the Fade and the ability for Magi to enter the fade while awake counter the assumption that dreams as we have them in reality exist at all in Thedas.  Thus, it seems weird to say that Dwarves have dreams more akin to our own.

You're assuming just because this other dimension exists, normal dreams do not? If all you have to do to enter the fade is go to sleep the game would be very different. I think it seems clear that is not how it works.

Humans, Elves, and Dwarves all have normal dreams. Humans and Elves are connected to the fade. That connection is strongest while the conscious mind is not exerting control. During that time, spirits and demons can manipulate the dreams of humans and elves.

If you dose yourself with Lyrium you can then fully exert yourself into the fade and mingle with the spirits.

That's how it all makes sense to me.

But that's not how it works.  The spirits aren't manipulating the dreams of Elves and Humans.  They create the dreams of Elves and Humans.  Here are some quotes from the collector's edition material in the Prima guide.

"The various realms ruled by the spirits fluctuate according to the movement of the dreamers.  Those realms that the dreamers flock to become very powerful and in turn rise in the spiritual hierarchy to rule great portions of the Fade, while other memories and concepts, things that in the real world have been forgotten, slowly ebb in power until they drift away back into the ether forever, the spirits who ruled them losing all potency."

This suggests that the spirits work to create immintations of reality, and that these immitations are themselves the dreams.  There's no suggestion of manipulation, here.

"The spirits grew jealous of the living and coaxed them back into the Fade when they slept.  They wished to know more of them, hoping to find a way to regain the Maker's favor.  Through the eyes of the living, they experienced new concepts:  love, fear, pain, and hope.  The spirits reshaped the Fade to resemble the living and concepts that they saw, each spirit desperately trying to bring the most dreamers to their own realm so they could vicariously possess the spark of the divine through them."

Here, we see that Elves and Humans would not enter the Fade naturally, and instead are drawn there by the spirits while they sleep.  It is possible that Elves and Humans had regular dreams before this practice began, but there's no mention of it anywhere in the lore.  Indeed, there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

"Requiring less faith is the fact that those who sleep actually do send their consciousness into the Fade.  The benign spirits native to the Fade anticipate this, and they have shaped the Fade into various realms that cater to the unconscious desires of the living, providing experiences to the sleeping that become their "dreams.""

Here, we see that the spirits themselves create the dreams.  This quote is actually problematic itself, though, for it suggests that Elves and Humans (do Qunari dream?) send their consciousness into the Fade, while the previous quote suggests that the spirits lure them there.  The previous quote is Chantry dogma, while the second is likely closer to reality (according to the studies of the Circle of Magi).  In either case, though, the dreams are creations of the Fade spirits themselves.  There's nothing to suggest that anyone has "normal" dreams in the way that you and I do.

[Slaign]

Yet it never clarifies the path to the fade, which I contest likely lies through "normal" dreams. You lie down, start dreaming, hear the lure of the fade and wander in. I still don't see a contradiction.

[Pennoyer]

I think you mean Peter Jackson's elves.