361 réponses à ce sujet

[T1l]

Slaign wrote...

Yet it never clarifies the path to the
fade, which I contest likely lies through "normal" dreams. You lie
down, start dreaming, hear the lure of the fade and wander in. I still
don't see a contradiction.

Again we come back to the issue of what constitutes a "normal" dream in Thedas; re-read what Seifz quoted.

[Slaign]

I also think the use of Lyrium to enter the fade indirectly supports the theory that one enters the Fade through his dreams. Lyrium is portrayed as a drug. Templars are addicted to it, those who get over exposed are left addled, and using it sends you to the Fade. I suggest that, like drugs, how it does this is effect your mind and put you in a dream like state, where you can enter the Fade.

[Ashlag]

I'm a Tolkienaphil, so my obvious first response would be Tokien's elves. That's how I've imagined elves forever basically, they are interesting (and more varied than the movies, or a quick skim of the books would have you believe) and just one of many interesting races in the Tolkien lore. But, for DA I do like this take on elves. The second class citizens thing is an interesting plot device and I think it works well in DA.



So I don't prefer one over the other, and I can see Tokien elves fitting into the DA world fine, but that isn't what the elves of DA are, so that is fine. I haven't played as an elf yet, but I think my next play through will be with an elf to experience the story from that perspective.

[Slaign]

T1l wrote...

Slaign wrote...

Yet it never clarifies the path to the
fade, which I contest likely lies through "normal" dreams. You lie
down, start dreaming, hear the lure of the fade and wander in. I still
don't see a contradiction.

Again we come back to the issue of what constitutes a "normal" dream in Thedas; re-read what Seifz quoted.

I did. I read it twice before I responded. There is no contradiction. It suggests to me that dreams and the fade are connected, and the spirits of the fade manipulate it to mimic the real world and the dream world. The entire use of the word dream in the lore indicates to me that dreams and the Fade are connected, but not one and the same. If they were the same, it wouldn't say "You dream and go into the fade." It would just say "You go to the fade when you sleep." with no mention of dreams.

Your mind, when in a dream state, can access the fade, and spirits lure you or you wander there yourself, depending on the part of the text you read. Lyrium puts you in a more potent dream state, making it easier to navigate into the Fade.

[Seifz]

Slaign wrote...

I also think the use of Lyrium to enter the fade indirectly supports the theory that one enters the Fade through his dreams. Lyrium is portrayed as a drug. Templars are addicted to it, those who get over exposed are left addled, and using it sends you to the Fade. I suggest that, like drugs, how it does this is effect your mind and put you in a dream like state, where you can enter the Fade.

Lyrium is a a drug, but it seems to have additional magical effects.  The Dwarves and the Tranquil use it for enchanting and crafting superior arms and armor.

Anyway, it's quite possible that lyrium puts your mind into a less conscious state, which makes it easier for the Spirits of the Fade to draw you in.  That doesn't at all imply that normal, "neuron-firing" dreams exist.  Not at all.  Remember that when Magi use lyrium to enter the Fade, they're actually quite aware and can distinguish reality from their surroundings.  They aren't just sending their consciousness into the Fade; they're sending their actual bodies, too.

[T1l]

Slaign wrote...

The entire use of the word dream in the lore indicates to me that dreams and the Fade are connected, but not one and the same. If they were the same, it wouldn't say "You dream and go into the fade." It would just say "You go to the fade when you sleep." with no mention of dreams.

Your mind, when in a dream state, can access the fade, and spirits lure you or you wander there yourself, depending on the part of the text you read. Lyrium puts you in a more potent dream state, making it easier to navigate into the Fade.

I think you're making a pretty big leap of faith; although to your credit, you're making that leap of faith for the sake of plausibility so it's hard to fault. The problem I have with your line of reasoning is, as I stated before, you're assuming this is correct (as I said, with good intention) and hence, to me, it's a logical fallacy. The counter argument that Seifz and I support is that there is plenty of in-game evidence to suggest an oversight in the lore; not a logical fallacy, but a question without an answer.

Needs more Gaider, IMHO.

[Emerald Rift]

its prob the first game/story where the elves aren't a better race than humans. i love tolkien's elves (and i prefer them) but in dragon age i think its a good new direction for elves but im not sure it would catch on in other games.

[Slaign]

Seifz wrote...

Slaign wrote...

I also think the use of Lyrium to enter the fade indirectly supports the theory that one enters the Fade through his dreams. Lyrium is portrayed as a drug. Templars are addicted to it, those who get over exposed are left addled, and using it sends you to the Fade. I suggest that, like drugs, how it does this is effect your mind and put you in a dream like state, where you can enter the Fade.

Lyrium is a a drug, but it seems to have additional magical effects.  The Dwarves and the Tranquil use it for enchanting and crafting superior arms and armor.

Anyway, it's quite possible that lyrium puts your mind into a less conscious state, which makes it easier for the Spirits of the Fade to draw you in.  That doesn't at all imply that normal, "neuron-firing" dreams exist.  Not at all.  Remember that when Magi use lyrium to enter the Fade, they're actually quite aware and can distinguish reality from their surroundings.  They aren't just sending their consciousness into the Fade; they're sending their actual bodies, too.

Umm.. Sending actual bodies into the fade was only done once, by the Tevinter Imperium. When you go into the fade in the Mage Origin, your body remains behind. As much is implied by the threat of succeed or die, and the fact that from the fade a demon can possess your body. You see Magi in the Fade in Ostegar., and their bodies are present. The "Apprentice" in the mage origin tells you his body was killed while he was in the fade. (Granted he's not the best reference.) This is also why you can shapechange in the fade, it is your consciousness not your body that is changing.

So the only instance of bodies going into the fade exists in ancient stories and dogma.

You are claiming I'm being unreasonable by assuming dreams exist when they haven't been said to exist, but I think it's unreasonable to declare with such determination that they do not exist just because it hasn't been stated explicitly. I also assume the humans breathe oxygen, but it doesn't specifically say so anywhere, and I can't see it, so maybe not...

[Slaign]

T1l wrote...

I think you're making a pretty big leap of faith; although to your credit, you're making that leap of faith for the sake of plausibility so it's hard to fault. The problem I have with your line of reasoning is, as I stated before, you're assuming this is correct (as I said, with good intention) and hence, to me, it's a logical fallacy. The counter argument that Seifz and I support is that there is plenty of in-game evidence to suggest an oversight in the lore; not a logical fallacy, but a question without an answer.

Needs more Gaider, IMHO.

But I'm not assuming I'm right. I'm assuming that if I can come up with a plausable reason for it, that even if mine is not THE reason, a plausible reason does exist. Even if it doesn't exist yet, it CAN exist. So I don't see a hole.

Definately an unanswered question, but not a plot hole.

[Viycktor]

Elves can be what you call them. They're basically always 'mysitcal' humans. Which is most fantasy means they're more advanced. But when they're not it's fine too.



Michael Stackpole's Dragon Crown series (there was a stand alone book, and then a series of three, all are pretty good) has a good portrayal of elves that has a good mix of tolken elves *and* gutter elves.



And in closing:

Why do elves have pointy ears?

There has to be some point to elves.

[Kendaric Varkellen]

th3warr1or wrote...

Basically, does anyone else prefer the LoTR elves? Naturally skilled archers, immortal, and tall and graceful creatures.

I definitely prefer Tolkien's vision of elves myself and haven't played my only elven character in DA:O very far (just past Lothering).

[Seifz]

Slaign wrote...

Seifz wrote...

Slaign wrote...

I also think the use of Lyrium to enter the fade indirectly supports the theory that one enters the Fade through his dreams. Lyrium is portrayed as a drug. Templars are addicted to it, those who get over exposed are left addled, and using it sends you to the Fade. I suggest that, like drugs, how it does this is effect your mind and put you in a dream like state, where you can enter the Fade.

Lyrium is a a drug, but it seems to have additional magical effects.  The Dwarves and the Tranquil use it for enchanting and crafting superior arms and armor.

Anyway, it's quite possible that lyrium puts your mind into a less conscious state, which makes it easier for the Spirits of the Fade to draw you in.  That doesn't at all imply that normal, "neuron-firing" dreams exist.  Not at all.  Remember that when Magi use lyrium to enter the Fade, they're actually quite aware and can distinguish reality from their surroundings.  They aren't just sending their consciousness into the Fade; they're sending their actual bodies, too.

Umm.. Sending actual bodies into the fade was only done once, by the Tevinter Imperium. When you go into the fade in the Mage Origin, your body remains behind. As much is implied by the threat of succeed or die, and the fact that from the fade a demon can possess your body. You see Magi in the Fade in Ostegar., and their bodies are present. The "Apprentice" in the mage origin tells you his body was killed while he was in the fade. (Granted he's not the best reference.) This is also why you can shapechange in the fade, it is your consciousness not your body that is changing.

So the only instance of bodies going into the fade exists in ancient stories and dogma.

You're right, Mages don't send their actual bodies.  They send their lucid consciousness into the Fade, rather than their unconsciousness as others do.  If a mage using lyrium is killed in the Fade, he dies.  Others do not.

So, my point stands.  Lyrium actually has the opposite affect than what you describe when it's used by the Magi.

You are claiming I'm being unreasonable by assuming dreams exist when they haven't been said to exist, but I think it's unreasonable to declare with such determination that they do not exist just because it hasn't been stated explicitly. I also assume the humans breathe oxygen, but it doesn't specifically say so anywhere, and I can't see it, so maybe not...

Maybe they don't!  Who knows that they breathe on Thedas?!

[aries1001]

If you red the codex entry about the elves, you will learn why the elves lost their immortality. Yes, it had something to do with the humans, and some other stuff...

[Slaign]

Seifz wrote...


You're right, Mages don't send their actual bodies.  They send their lucid consciousness into the Fade, rather than their unconsciousness as others do.  If a mage using lyrium is killed in the Fade, he dies.  Others do not.

So, my point stands.  Lyrium actually has the opposite affect than what you describe when it's used by the Magi.

Have you EVER done LSD or Shrooms? Because I'd describe the effects very close to "Conscious dreaming." It alters your state of mind to one much closer to a dream like state. It's what makes you susceptable to hallucination.

I'd say if Lyrium has that effect, bringing you close to a dream like state while retaining consciousness, it lends creedance to the theory it acts like a drug and it is that dream like state that allows you to enter the Fade.

[immortal_scream]

Tolkien's elves = total pwnage.

[Seifz]

Slaign wrote...

Seifz wrote...


You're right, Mages don't send their actual bodies.  They send their lucid consciousness into the Fade, rather than their unconsciousness as others do.  If a mage using lyrium is killed in the Fade, he dies.  Others do not.

So, my point stands.  Lyrium actually has the opposite affect than what you describe when it's used by the Magi.

Have you EVER done LSD or Shrooms? Because I'd describe the effects very close to "Conscious dreaming." It alters your state of mind to one much closer to a dream like state. It's what makes you susceptable to hallucination.

I'd say if Lyrium has that effect, bringing you close to a dream like state while retaining consciousness, it lends creedance to the theory it acts like a drug and it is that dream like state that allows you to enter the Fade.

I haven't, no.  Why would I?

In any case, Templars don't seem to enter the Fade more than anyone else despite using lyrium.  So, I'm not convinced that your claim is accurate anyway.  Even if it was true that lyrium makes you hallucinate, or even if it makes it easier for the spirits to tug at your consciousness (unconsciousness?), that doesn't mean that "normal" dreams exist.  You'll forgive me for not knowing the Latin words for whatever fallacy that is.

[LunSei Sleidee]

I just wanted to come in and say: I really, really like Dragon Age's new take on the elves. FINALLY something different.

Besides, by making them less powerful and supernatural and hippy, they in turn made them more interesting. And their tragic story is charming.

[gods999]

Maybe they can introduce Tolkien's elves as a Superior race of elves because they're cool and the DA:O elves are cool

[Slaign]

Seifz wrote...

I haven't, no.  Why would I?

In any case, Templars don't seem to enter the Fade more than anyone else despite using lyrium.  So, I'm not convinced that your claim is accurate anyway.  Even if it was true that lyrium makes you hallucinate, or even if it makes it easier for the spirits to tug at your consciousness (unconsciousness?), that doesn't mean that "normal" dreams exist.  You'll forgive me for not knowing the Latin words for whatever fallacy that is.

I'm not saying you should have, just saying that the effects are basically exactly what you described. As for why would you, well, some people find it a very enlightening experience.

Templars use just a big enough dose to get addicted, and they are not magically adept. Thus entering the fade doesn't come as easily to them. I would not be suprised if their personal veil to the fade is thinner when on Lyrium, due to it effecting them like a dream.

I don't care if you believe my theory. It's just a theory. But you're trying to prove to me it's false, and you can't the evidence doesn't exist. You are trying to say dreams in this world do not exist. But that's possibly more an assumption than that they do.

The point is, my theory works. I don't believe it as fact, because I don't have conclusive evidence, but it works as a theory. And having a workable theory, to me, means there is no plot hole. A plot hole is a contradiction that can't be explained. There is no unexplainable contradiction here.

[Tirigon]

The elves of DA:O are interesting, yes, but they arent really elves. They are more like poor humans who had a surgeon make them pointy ears.

[David Gaider]

T1l wrote...
The reason my girlfriend asked this was because of a transitional loading screen "tip" that stated: "When Dwarfs dream they do not go to the Fade". Simple as that. I couldn't answer with 100% certainty, and to me, why they don't doesn't make a great deal of sense. I understand that Lyrium makes them resistant to magic; but immune to and separated from the Fade? Really?

Dwarves do not enter the Fade when they dream, yes. This doesn't mean they are barred from the Fade (as is evident from the fact that a demon can force them in), they simply do not go there naturally.

There's a very good reason for why they don't enter the Fade. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but I will say that it has nothing to do with their resistance to magic. Rather the reverse: their resistance to magic comes from the fact that they don't enter the Fade -- which also allows them to mine dangerous lyrium better than other races would.

Will we ever discuss the reason they don't enter the Fade? Possibly. If that makes you pout, then sorry.

[Proleric]

A new twist on archetypes is always fun - the acid test is whether DA elves are sufficiently interesting that we want to know more, and I certainly did.

IIRC, Tolkein's elves were pretty diverse - for example, his Wood Elves were almost bestial, quite unlike the shining immortal ones, and certainly not as noble as the Dalish.

Incidentally, according to a widespread British tradition, the best way to offend the helpful variety of domestic elf is to give her clothes... ESRB please note.

Modifié par Proleric1, 05 décembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[Slaign]

David Gaider wrote...

T1l wrote...
The reason my girlfriend asked this was because of a transitional loading screen "tip" that stated: "When Dwarfs dream they do not go to the Fade". Simple as that. I couldn't answer with 100% certainty, and to me, why they don't doesn't make a great deal of sense. I understand that Lyrium makes them resistant to magic; but immune to and separated from the Fade? Really?

Dwarves do not enter the Fade when they dream, yes. This doesn't mean they are barred from the Fade (as is evident from the fact that a demon can force them in), they simply do not go there naturally.

There's a very good reason for why they don't enter the Fade. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but I will say that it has nothing to do with their resistance to magic. Rather the reverse: their resistance to magic comes from the fact that they don't enter the Fade -- which also allows them to mine dangerous lyrium better than other races would.

Will we ever discuss the reason they don't enter the Fade? Possibly. If that makes you pout, then sorry.

*Big grin* Thanks. I look forward to finding out more, you can't give us everything at once! I, at least, enjoy coming up with theories.

[T1l]

Slaign wrote...

But you're trying to prove to me it's false, and you can't the evidence doesn't exist.

That's true, we have a severe lack of evidence to say categorically one way or the other.

You are trying to say dreams in this world do not exist. But that's possibly more an assumption than that they do.

Considering the amount of information we have to base Thedas lore on, I would say the opposite. The guidelines for what happens when any individual or creature dreams are given; they are stated and for the most part mutually affirming in their different sources (be it what the Chantry says in dogma, or what the Circle records in experiments).

The point is, my theory works. I don't believe it as fact, because I don't have conclusive evidence, but it works as a theory. And having a workable theory, to me, means there is no plot hole. A plot hole is a contradiction that can't be explained. There is no unexplainable contradiction here.

Your theory works if you chose to disregard what has been given to us as fact (and that term should be used loosely, as even Gaider himself has said you can't be sure of what is and isn't fact when dealing with different sources). However!

Fact: Dwarfs can enter the fade.
Fact: Dwarfs dream.
Fact: Dwarfs both dream AND enter the fade.
Fact: Loading screen and codex state Dwarfs have no connection to the Fade and do not enter the Fade when they dream.

That to me is a contradiction that needs explaining.