361 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaosgirl]

Tirigon wrote...

@LunSei Sleidee:
But why calling them Elves then? I mean, if they arent like the Elves in classic fantasy (that is, Tolkien+copies^^) they shouldnt be named like them.

Do we stop calling a dog a dog, just because years of selective breeding have made them so different from the ancestors we first domesticated?  
Are the Drow of Forgotten Realms no longer Elves either?

DA:O Elves were more like classic Elves, once.  Then things happened.

[LightPhoenix]

David Gaider wrote...

There's a very good reason for why they don't enter the Fade. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but I will say that it has nothing to do with their resistance to magic. Rather the reverse: their resistance to magic comes from the fact that they don't enter the Fade -- which also allows them to mine dangerous lyrium better than other races would.

Will we ever discuss the reason they don't enter the Fade? Possibly. If that makes you pout, then sorry.

We know that demons have some sort of connection to the Fade.  Furthermore, we know that the incursion into the Fade is responsible for the Darkspawn.  I would therefore presume that the constant battle between Darkspawn and Dwarves is in some way related to Dwarves not being able to enter the Fade.  The piece that connects the two thoughts is missing though.

We know (ish, assuming the Codex is right on this part) that Broodmothers exist for the Dwarves, and that Genlocks are the product of Dwarven Broodmothers.  So it's not simply that Dwarves are immune to the Taint.  That's obviously not the case, even barring PC interactions with the Grey Wardens and Archdemon.  This says to me that Dwarves at one point could enter the Fade; after all, the Taint is from the Fade.  A key piece of information we don't know is if the mages that breached the Fade into the Golden City included Dwarves or not. 

At some point in time, the Dwarves stopped being able to enter the Fade.  We know they can be pulled in; they're not immune to the Fade, even if they're resistant to it.  At some point, an event must have occured that prevented them from entering.  Per Gaider, this Fade resistance has the side effects of preventing Dreaming (capital D, as in entering the Fade) and magic in the Dwarves.

Darkspawn are spurred on by the Archdemons, who are supposedly Old Gods.  However, they are not the product of them either way; the Dwarves are at constant war with them.  Yet, it seems evident that the Darkspawn come from under the surface.  This precludes lyrium from being a cause of any sort of Fade resistance.  If lyrium caused resistance, the Darkspawn, born of the breach, would be less productive underground, not more.

My supposition is that lyrium and the Fade are directly linked.  How could this be?  If, and this is a big pile of if, the Golden City is indeed related to the Old Gods, then my theory is that lyrium is the Old Gods.  The common belief that the Old Gods were Dragons is in fact incorrect; after all, we see non-deific dragons.  Rather, Archdemons are the product of draconic Broodmothers, much like Ogres are the product of Qunari Broodmothers, and Shrieks/Elves, Humans/Hurlocks, Dwarves/Genlocks.  The "Old Gods" somehow discovered the Fade; perhaps they made it or perhaps they were the first to enter it, or perhaps not.  The bodies that they left became lyrium, much like dinosaurs (and all organic matter) become oil.  Hence, veins of lyrium.

That still doesn't explain Dwarves though.  If exposure to lyrium didn't make them Fade resistant (ie, the natural selection theory), there are a couple of theories.  First, perhaps Elves/Humans/Qunari were involved in the breach, but Dwarves were not.  This is unlikely; Dwarves are still cursed with the Taint, and perhaps bear the strongest burden. 

A second theory is that Dragons interacted with the other races, but not with Dwarves, since they were undergound.  We assume that races can affect one another; the Humans supposedly caused the Quickening in the Elves.  The Dragons could have caused Fade affinity in the other races (Elves/Humans/maybe Qunari) but not in the the Dwarves.  This seems a distinct possibility.  Of course, there is a flaw in logic here... lyrium is underground.

Anyway, if any of these drunken theories are correct, I want a no-prize from Bioware... even if I don't get to know the exact details.

[Kaosgirl]

LightPhoenix wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There's a very good reason for why they don't enter the Fade. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but I will say that it has nothing to do with their resistance to magic. Rather the reverse: their resistance to magic comes from the fact that they don't enter the Fade -- which also allows them to mine dangerous lyrium better than other races would.

Will we ever discuss the reason they don't enter the Fade? Possibly. If that makes you pout, then sorry.

We know that demons have some sort of connection to the Fade.  Furthermore, we know that the incursion into the Fade is responsible for the Darkspawn.  

Without spoilers, do we actually *know* this or do we just know that this is what the people of Fereldan believe?

[Silensfurtim]

Santa's Elves > All

[DaeFaron]

True, the Dragon age elf is a new take on them, it really only fits the City elf. With a city elf I can get the feeling of how the elves are treated and have a character hate the humans.



With a dalish elf, not so much. I got the feeling from my character of a "Meh, look a human" reaction instead of "What's a human doing here? lets get them to go away as quickly as possible, I hate humans!"

[AXidenT Gamer]

Is the Mage Origin any different if you play as an Elf? IMO it would have been cool if you played a Dalish Mage...

[kevinwastaken]

The Dragon Age elves are pathetic, loathsome creatures. The Tolkien elves are awesome, powerful and majestic beings.



The only fair comparison is that they both have pointy ears.

[LunSei Sleidee]

kevinwastaken wrote...

The Dragon Age elves are pathetic, loathsome creatures. The Tolkien elves are awesome, powerful and majestic beings.

And this is why Dragon Age elves are much better?

[DaeFaron]

LunSei Sleidee wrote...

kevinwastaken wrote...

The Dragon Age elves are pathetic, loathsome creatures. The Tolkien elves are awesome, powerful and majestic beings.

And this is why Dragon Age elves are much better?

Depends on your opinion.

To me the differences between an elf and a human are: Elves have greater agility and senses (thus leading directly into better reflexes, sight, and hearing), are naturally long lived or immortal regarding aging, and tend to be more graceful and charismatic. They also know how to make armor thats just as strong as human armor, but lighter.

[LunSei Sleidee]

DaeFaron wrote...


Depends on your opinion.

To me the differences between an elf and a human are: Elves have greater agility and senses (thus leading directly into better reflexes, sight, and hearing), are naturally long lived or immortal regarding aging, and tend to be more graceful and charismatic. They also know how to make armor thats just as strong as human armor, but lighter.

You just explained the reason why I NEVER liked elves. Read what you wrote. They're superhumans with better agilist, better reflexes, immortality, eternal youth, good looks, and charisma. Just..... NO.

This would make elves superior than humans. Personally I always disliked that. I like that in Dragon Age, elves aren't snotty treehuggers who are so very superior than human beings. They still <i>think</i> they are like that, if they're Dalish elves. But they really are not. They are more.... realistic. Less like divine superbeings, and much more like living creatures just like the rest of us. This made them so much more likeable for me. And I won't make spoilers here, but I just thought Zathrian was so badass.

[Tirigon]

I know that elves are from ancient mythology, but to me it was Tolkiens description that made them what they are, cant help it.
@ Kaosgirl: Well, we dont stop calling a dog "dog", but we have names for the different races of dogs. And we definitely dont call domestic dogs of nowadays "wolves", what were their ancestors.
So your statement rather justifies my opinion and doesnt oppose it :-p
Im fine with Dalish and all that stuff (I even like the "elves" of DAO), I just wouldnt call them like Tolkiens elves. (Its just like Edward in "Twilight" - hes a cool guy in a cool story, but he isnt a real vampire.)
But then again, we can just call Tolkiens elves "Noldor" and all the other names he invented, so this problem is sort of solved. In the Silmarillion, there are even elves that are as weak and cowardly as the DAO-elves, but noone cares for them because the Noldor are much more important and interesting.

PS: Tolkiens elves arent described as superior to humans in every aspect. Sure, they are immortal, beautiful and all, but in the Silmarillion it says that even during the time of the ancient elves, and even more in the LOTR-time then, the greatest heroes have been humans, not elves, and in the end it were humans who decided the war between Morgoth and the elves. Humans have always been superior to elves in bodily strenght, their ability to find new ways and some other things In the long run the humans win anyways, cause after LOTR, the age of elves is over and humans are the rulers of all of Middle Earth. And they will help Iluvatar to recreate a new, perfect world, after Middle Earth perishes, while the elves will have to stay in Valinor forever.

Modifié par Tirigon, 06 décembre 2009 - 12:42 .

[corebit]

LunSei Sleidee wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...


Depends on your opinion.

To me the differences between an elf and a human are: Elves have greater agility and senses (thus leading directly into better reflexes, sight, and hearing), are naturally long lived or immortal regarding aging, and tend to be more graceful and charismatic. They also know how to make armor thats just as strong as human armor, but lighter.

You just explained the reason why I NEVER liked elves. Read what you wrote. They're superhumans with better agilist, better reflexes, immortality, eternal youth, good looks, and charisma. Just..... NO.

This would make elves superior than humans. Personally I always disliked that. I like that in Dragon Age, elves aren't snotty treehuggers who are so very superior than human beings. They still think they are like that, if they're Dalish elves. But they really are not. They are more.... realistic. Less like divine superbeings, and much more like living creatures just like the rest of us. This made them so much more likeable for me. And I won't make spoilers here, but I just thought Zathrian was so badass.

Exactly, also this Tolkienesque portrayal have made elves too popular among the gaming crowd. Take any standard fantasy MMO for example. The population ratio for any of these games which include elves, humans, dwarves is always staggeringly slanted towards elves. Do people choose them just for their good looks? Maybe, but so are humans and many other "fair-looking" humanoid races devised over many games.

When I was a GM for my friends for DnD games, I always made it a point to them that the Tolkienesque elves were very hard to roleplay properly. I don't mean the Legolas or the Drizzt fans, they are not worth mentioning in a serious roleplaying discussion. It's just my experience that most people roleplay their elves poorly, and they were simply attracted to their superhuman qualities.

Just look at the some of the responses here, people like the Tolkien elves because they "pwnzers" other races,

The elves of Dragon Age give a really fresh perspective, and for the first time, I actually felt good playing an elf and it gave me lots of possibilities for roleplaying them.

[Roxlimn]

Keebler Elves > all.

[DarwinJames]

Not Tolkien's Elves so much, but the twist on Tolkien's lore in WoW is superb. Elves they are, but with the bad habit of blowing huge holes in their planet! And descended from Trolls too, apparently.



It was fine for Bioware to come up with a fresh twist on the Elf lore, but it is not a twist that appeals to me. I just don't like games in which humans turn out to be the superior species.



But if we consider mass appeal and game sales ... maybe the general public expects humans to automatically be at the top of the heap.

[deathwing200]

I personally disliked the portrayal of elves in DA. Elves are supposed to be majestic, powerful, wise and long lived. Not a bunch of weak cowards who are dominated so easily. It kinda remind me of convo:

Orghen: So why were elves so easily conquered and enslaved by the humans?
Zhevran: Well, there were a lot more of them...
Orghen: There are a lot more humans than dwarves and you don't see us bowing down to them

Modifié par deathwing200, 06 décembre 2009 - 01:01 .

[Delthayre]

I have become very weary of all-perfect, Mary-Sue Elves, thus I find the Elves of "Dragon Age: Origins" to be a satisfying divergence from that. I've never understood the appeal anyway. It seems like worshipping a race because they get a lot of cool stuff for free by dint of inheritance.



I prefer dwarves, anyway. Of course, I always side with whoever has the best beards.

[P_k_r]

Tolkien's Elves =/= "generic" elves. I'm surprised people are putting them in the same pile. Yes, the D&D stereotypical elves derive from the Professor's works, but they are definitely not the same.

Modifié par P_k_r, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:00 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Just a thought: Elves in Tolkien are actually quite different from Elves from Generic Fantasy 101. There are superficial similarities, but to say they are the same misses out on the whole essence of them in Tolkien's works.

Also, short elves were actually the standard in AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook (and maybe earlier, I seem to recall D&D Encyclopedia description for the Elf class saying something similar).

I recall that the concept of the generic elf being arrogant came from one source: the players and DMs themselves being incapable of playing an elf. Alot of players can't portray the aloofness and mischieviousness of an immortal being right and instead come across as arrogant wankers, hence most people came to associate elves with being arrogant wankers.

This has probably already been mentioned in the thread however, as I am still trawling through it now. If it has, my apologies.

EDIT:  For instance, P_K_R's post right above mine already mentions the generic and tolkien elf thing.

Further EDIT:  This following picture is from the 2nd ed PHB and pretty much summed up my idea of them from back then.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:43 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Randy1083 wrote...

I hate Dragon Age's elves because I had the same exact idea about a fantasy world in which elves are subservient to humans like seven years ago, and now, if I ever do anything with it, it will seem like I copied BioWare's idea. :-P

I have a similar problem as I had planned for a game involving power-hungry manipulative dwarves.

Damn Bioware, they are stealing our ideas! 

[7times6]

I have to chime in with those who prefer Tolkien's elves. They were mystical, removed and an embodiement of magic (like dragons), the elder folk modelled after the Irish Sidhe, the Finish/Norse Elves, the Albes .... They lend magic to stories...



D&D were already rather a flat copy so to say (and don't even get me started with Jackson's interpretation as entertaining as the movies were).



I believe that DA would have gained enormously if they moved away from the steortypes to do something new. Now with the elves in DA I am constantly reminded of the sad fate of the South/North American Indians. It feels not original enough, like given enough time any mystic story on elves, vampires, magic becomes rather a too close mirror of our world (and teenage problems).



Develop a new race like the Qunari, make them deep and get rid of the old flat steorotypes so that they become interesting and you can identify with them. The elves in DA appear to be rather pathetic to be honest. You wish they were modelled after the American Indian tribes.

All this somehow conflicts with the old tales&Tolkien concept, although you might get a kick out of it if you dislike the elves as a fantasy pattern.

[Darpaek]

I like beggar/gypsy elves. I enjoyed this part of DA simply because it was different and, as far as fantasy goes, original.

[Elanareon]

I SERIOUSLY DO! Not the high and mighty aspect but the tallness aspect! I mean c'mon Tolkien was the only one who made this.... I want a tall elf not a short one... Been dreaming of it for years... huhuu...

[Kalcalan]

It's been pointed out already but the elves being shorter than humans comes from D&D not Tolkien. The elves being less strong and frailer than humans comes from D&D not Tolkien. The elves having pointy ears comes from D&D not Tolkien...



I could go on and on about this and about how ridiculous elves are in the Lord of the Rings movie (seriously, what were they thinking when they went all Spock look alike with Elrond the half elf and went for blond elves with dark eyebrows in Lorien).



There is nothing wrong about Dragon Age's depiction of elves as being a wronged people who has a majestic past but have dwindled into servitude. Someone mentioned already that elves in Dragon Ages were somehow akin to Native Americans. That's a very apt comparison especially when you consider the Dalish. But if you look at the Alienage, it's hard not to be reminded of Jewish ghettos that existed for centuries in Europe.



Tolkien's elves are meant to be more than humans who are mere "mortal men doomed to die" and as such they have a deep link with Faerie (magic and spirituality if you like). That's not something that can be easily translated into movies or games so instead we have pointy ears and frail looking elves.



Anyway, I feel that Dragon Age's take on elves is a breath of fresh air and that straying away from clichés makes the universe more attractive and more unique than for instance the Forgotten Realms (which is a very basic setting that has been expanded for years and thus became a sort of element of reference).



My first character was a city elf and I enjoyed the way that it made me think about the power structure and social issues in Ferelden. That is something only few games achieve.

[Roxlimn]

Tolkien Elves were not the embodiment of magic, and they were not all expressly tall - that would be the Tall Kin Elves, which differ from Tolkien Elves in that they were all uniformly tall. Neither Elf concept was very sociable, though - that would be the Talking Elves.

[MerinTB]

corebit wrote...

LunSei Sleidee wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...


Depends on your opinion.

To me the differences between an elf and a human are: Elves have greater agility and senses (thus leading directly into better reflexes, sight, and hearing), are naturally long lived or immortal regarding aging, and tend to be more graceful and charismatic. They also know how to make armor thats just as strong as human armor, but lighter.

You just explained the reason why I NEVER liked elves. Read what you wrote. They're superhumans with better agilist, better reflexes, immortality, eternal youth, good looks, and charisma. Just..... NO.

This would make elves superior than humans. Personally I always disliked that. I like that in Dragon Age, elves aren't snotty treehuggers who are so very superior than human beings. They still think they are like that, if they're Dalish elves. But they really are not. They are more.... realistic. Less like divine superbeings, and much more like living creatures just like the rest of us. This made them so much more likeable for me. And I won't make spoilers here, but I just thought Zathrian was so badass.

Exactly, also this Tolkienesque portrayal have made elves too popular among the gaming crowd. Take any standard fantasy MMO for example. The population ratio for any of these games which include elves, humans, dwarves is always staggeringly slanted towards elves. Do people choose them just for their good looks? Maybe, but so are humans and many other "fair-looking" humanoid races devised over many games.

When I was a GM for my friends for DnD games, I always made it a point to them that the Tolkienesque elves were very hard to roleplay properly. I don't mean the Legolas or the Drizzt fans, they are not worth mentioning in a serious roleplaying discussion. It's just my experience that most people roleplay their elves poorly, and they were simply attracted to their superhuman qualities.

Just look at the some of the responses here, people like the Tolkien elves because they "pwnzers" other races,

The elves of Dragon Age give a really fresh perspective, and for the first time, I actually felt good playing an elf and it gave me lots of possibilities for roleplaying them.

I agree with the fresh perspective angle, and enjoy the DAO world greatly.

As a table-top player and DM/GM, let me add my voice to the "people don't play other races to be other races, people play other races to be humans with bonuses."

95% of the people I've role-played with, even the non min-max'ers, even the ones good at acting in character, don't ROLE-play elves (or rodians, or juicers, pick your game and your non-human choices.)  The people who play elves act like humans, sometimes environmentalist humans or members of PETA, sure, but humans all the same, and just like the stat bonuses.  Kind of like all the people who wanted to play Paladins back in the day but conveniently "forgot" the tithing, minimum amount of magic items, religious aspect or lawful good aspect - they just wanted the cool abilities without the costs or the RP aspects.

I was in a D&D campaign recently where one the players chose for her character to be a githyanki because the race bonuses were perfect for her class, and another person was a warforged because he liked the race.  The guy playing the warforged is one of the rare exceptions - he look down on organics, spoke oddly, reacted differently to situations.  The girl playing the githyanki did nothing with the race at all, nor, in fact, did the DM who didn't have any NPCs react in the slightest ot a githyanki running around or a big wood and metal contstruct tromping through town.

Of course, to the min-maxers out there, stats are all that matter.  Who cares character, story, or any of that garbage when making choice A grants a bigger damage output in combat?  Best create that 3 mage party of AW/SH all maxing out their spellpower, stat!