361 réponses à ce sujet

[Ogre2010]

th3warr1or wrote...

I enjoy, to an extent the lore and history BioWare has created for Dragon Age. 
Dwarves using swords, and speaking without scottish accents, Elves are shorter than humans, not immortal and overall are the second class citizens while Humans are the masters.

But after awhile, the novelty of the idea wears thin, and I prefer the LoTR style elves(generic high fantasy) ala Legolas and Elrond. I'm fine with the Humans(they didn't change much about it, it's still pretty much the generic fantasy human).

Basically, does anyone else prefer the LoTR elves? Naturally skilled archers, immortal, and tall and graceful creatures.

Nope. I never thought any kind of elf was really that interesting...other than Santa's elves when I was little I thought Santa's elves were awesome the coolest christmas icons.

[Tirigon]

How should LOTR be anti-industrial? Its fantasy (and the very best in my opinion), nothing political!!!

Also, I have to defend Tolkiens elves: They are a lot deeper and more interesting (and less overpowered) than what the movies made them.

Anyways, if you want REALLY OP elves, read Bernhard Hennens "Die Elfen" Novels. There you have your super-humanly strong elves who sometimes kill a few hundred enemies all alone, or invade the Trolls´ Fortress without any help but their knife and still kill 50 trolls + their king.#

Compared to them, even the Legolas from the movies is a little child playing with a selfmade plastic bow ;-)

I hate them, btw, though the novels are cool. But they are just too strong. DAO-Elves however are too weak and cowardly. Tolkien just did it all right.

[Slaign]

Aesir Rising wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
  Anywho, Tolkien's elves were just too prissy-perfect. 

Yikes.  The elves you see in the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are there because they were exiled.  They were exiled because the Valar (the Middle-Earth gods) tossed them out of their lands because a) they rebelled against the Valar, and the elves were murdering each other during The Kin-Slaying because they went to war against each other and against the Valar over the right to possess the Silmarils.

All those elves that figure prominently in the movie?  Exiled rebel elf-murderers or children of those that did commit those crimes.  Sure, they still had values and morals.  But you know how all those elves in the books and movies seemed slightly sad or melancholy?  Yeah, now you know why.

I admit I don't know much about LOTR, but I still think of them as supermen. They have some issues, which is obligatory for a decent story, but they are still closer to perfection than humans. They may have a history, but they come from their paradise lands, and they have their perfect forms, and are stronger and faster than the humans. I'd also tend to like them more if instead of "sad and meloncholy" over their exile, they take it in stride and embrace the things that got them exiled. Do the elves mourn their exile, repent their sins, and strive to again reach their idea of moral perfection? If so, boring, they are being to perfect. I'd be more excited about rebel elves OK with being rebel elves.

I think elves should be more lithe than humans, but not stronger. Their slight frames should make them less hardy than humans. Dwarves are stocky, hardy and strong, but not agile. Humans are in the middle.

I like elves that look beautiful to humans, but elves should have their own standard for beauty, and not be full of themselves because they are such a pretty race. To elves, they should have ugly elves and beautiful elves, and humans shouldn't necessarily be able to tell which is which.

In conclusion, Elves shouldn't be better than humans. They should be different.

[Codemanjap]

Seifz wrote...

Valiant_hogers wrote...

Those stupid elves were immortal and still lost to the humans wtf?
Realy, can't those elves fight?

Being in contact with the humans caused their immortality to vanish.  Dunno why.

I think the elves were heavily modeled off between a mixture of Africans and Native Americans. When the Europeans came to the Americas something very similar happened. They brought diseases when coming in contact with the Natives and they eventually all began to die off. While it doesnt say that humans brought diseases, it seems to be very similar in the sense they lose their immortality.

[Slaign]

Tirigon wrote...
 DAO-Elves however are too weak and cowardly. Tolkien just did it all right.

I definately think DAO went farther than needed to bring down the elves from "Humans, but better with pointy ears." but I like where they are more than the elves of previous description. I want the elves to have just as many issues as humans. I want them to be just as prone to adversity.

I just want them to be different. Different strengths, different weaknesses, different problems, but ultimately, on the same level. Relatable.

There's some value to being the unkillable space marine, or the super magical immortal elf, or the unstoppable ninja in some games, when the focus is over the top crazy action and fun. When the focus of the game or experience is story, I want a character with more depth than that. A character that can't just "Awesome" his or her way out of every problem.

[FlintlockJazz]

Tirigon wrote...

Anyways, if you want REALLY OP elves, read Bernhard Hennens "Die Elfen" Novels. There you have your super-humanly strong elves who sometimes kill a few hundred enemies all alone, or invade the Trolls´ Fortress without any help but their knife and still kill 50 trolls + their king.#

Though it's not actually about Elves, but rather elf-like beings, Elfen Lied is a serious headbuggery that, if you can get past the first few episodes that essentially consist of, well actually no I'm not gonna say anymore.  Suffice to say if you saw past the first few episodes and can see through all the, um, stuff (I spent most episodes going "Ah nonononononononon!  Me eyes!  Ooh that's interestin-Arrrrghhhhh!!!!!!" and only managed to make it through the series due to the recommendation of a friend who said "You'll understand if you watch it all the way through!") then there is some deeper stuff in it, and shows how almost all-powerful beings can be flawed.  Inbetween taking your head and inserting...

Slaign wrote...

In conclusion, Elves shouldn't be better than humans. They should be different.

I think this best sums it up.  I would find it interesting to see them portrayed as more 'alien', that while they may look like us their brains are wired completely differently, and liked the portrayal of them in WHFRP old edition.  Maybe appear more 'exotic' as well rather than just more beautiful, like really angular faces, but the problem with this is that unless they are an NPC race you still need players to be able to take on these roles, which is where the problem comes from, that roleplaying an immortal superior race is hard for an inferior being to do.

Overall, I really like how the Elves are done in DA:O, and how the changes have been made to impact on the other races too.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:10 .

[maikanix]

I saw the change in the treatment of elves in Dragon Age as a comment on the modern commodification and abuse of creativity. The elves, to me, always represented a magical side of humanity. Fae-realms and what have you. The magical impulse made flesh. In Dragon Age, the elves are abused, their powers are gone. This, to me, is saying that this is how the magical impulse, which is the creative impulse, is treated these days. With abuse, and disdain.



In Tolkien, the magic of the elves has simply passed with time. In Dragon Age, the elves have been destroyed by the cruelty of humanity. Because of this comment on the modern times, I actually like the Dragon age elves. I think they're more relevant. In fact it's BECAUSE I like the LOTR elves that I understand what the Dragon Age elves represent, and appreciate them.

[Fishy]

Elve in Dungeons and Dragon aren't immortal but they can live for 700-800 years.
Elve in Lord of the Ring are immortal being but they're becoming a Rare breed
Elve in Dragon age are just the shadow of what they used to be.Until they meet the human race (tevinter Imperium) and started to trade with them (mating also) .. Than some kind of disease started to attack them and they wanted to stop any trading or social intereraction with them and the tevinter imperium attacked them and enslaved them.

Also what's wrong with elve being superior than human in most fashion?Someone here said that why he hate the tolkien elve..What's wrong with them being much more gracious and intelligent than human?

The Elve in Da remind me of the black people.Enslaved them to be made into second class citizen.

Modifié par Suprez30, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:14 .

[Fishy]

T1l wrote...

It's refreshing to see the Elves at the bottom of the pile, to be honest.

"Lithe, pointy eared creatures that excel at poverty".

Hilarious.

Only in Ferendel .. In most other land in Thedas elve aren't poor.

[MerinTB]

If you do research on subjects, or have attended classes where professors teach on subjects, you can learn a lot about something (even a book) without reading it.

I can take the word of the author and of literary critics (that is, educated people who make analysis of literature their occupation, not book reviewers or anyone of different professions trying to read into a book) and accept what they were writing about is what they said they were writing about.

I'm not sure David's (and the rest of Bioware's) take on the truth of elves, the Maker (God), etc., is exactly -

but my reading of the books and the game is that there is ambiguity PURPOSEFULLY written into these backgrounds and histories. Part of that may be so the audience (those reading the books and playing the games) can take away from it what they will (like deciding if you think Morrigan or Leliana are right in their discussion about the Maker), but I think that it is strongly hinted that the "taught" beliefs of many of these established groups (the Chantry, the Dalish elves, the Dwarves) are more tradition than fact.

I think it is very possible that mages did NOT invade the Golden City at all.
I think it is very possible that Andraste was never really the bride of the Maker.

AND I think it is very possible that, in Thedas, elves were never really immortal. Their tales of being immortal could well be "the good old days" of lost innocence / purity. Like how in the Judeo-Christian tradition humans used to live to be hundreds of years old - from outside those who believe the scriptures, many scholars would see this as a literary device.

In short, even IF the elves of DAO were once immortal and "Tolkien perfect" - the story and world at least gives the appearance that maybe that is all as fake as - well, no spoilers.

Modifié par MerinTB, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:11 .

[Maconbar]

Aesir Rising wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
  Anywho, Tolkien's elves were just too prissy-perfect. 

Yikes.  The elves you see in the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are there because they were exiled.  They were exiled because the Valar (the Middle-Earth gods) tossed them out of their lands because a) they rebelled against the Valar, and the elves were murdering each other during The Kin-Slaying because they went to war against each other and against the Valar over the right to possess the Silmarils.

All those elves that figure prominently in the movie?  Exiled rebel elf-murderers or children of those that did commit those crimes.  Sure, they still had values and morals.  But you know how all those elves in the books and movies seemed slightly sad or melancholy?  Yeah, now you know why.

Thank you for pointing these facts.

Feanor and his sons are hardly prissy-perfect. Although I have to admit that Maedhros fits the tragic hero role fairly well.

[JaegerBane]

Curlain wrote...

What's wrong with C.S. Lewis as such...

If i had to sum up one aspect that answers this question, it's his treatment of Susan Pevensie in the later books. I.e. because she's gotten into her 20s and therefore wears lipstick and goes to parties she must be evil and needs to go to hell and spend eternity in torment. *That*, my friend, is what I term bible-bashing.

I actually didn't mind the biblical references in the first book. That wasn't what I was talking about.

[th3warr1or]

Staylost wrote...

Oh sure.

Of course I prefer immortal, hearty, super wise, killing machines with hyper-senses to the whiny DA elves.

But Tolkien's elves don't belong in a game. If realized as he describes them, they would be something like godmode.

Fair enough. I'm going to take your post as it is, and assume there is no sarcasm intended at all.

[th3warr1or]

DaeFaron wrote...

LunSei Sleidee wrote...

kevinwastaken wrote...

The Dragon Age elves are pathetic, loathsome creatures. The Tolkien elves are awesome, powerful and majestic beings.

And this is why Dragon Age elves are much better?

Depends on your opinion.

To
me the differences between an elf and a human are: Elves have greater
agility and senses (thus leading directly into better reflexes, sight,
and hearing), are naturally long lived or immortal regarding aging, and
tend to be more graceful and charismatic. They also know how to make
armor thats just as strong as human armor, but lighter.

kevinwastaken wrote...

The Dragon Age elves are pathetic, loathsome creatures. The Tolkien elves are awesome, powerful and majestic beings.

The only fair comparison is that they both have pointy ears.

Agreed.

LunSei Sleidee wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...


Depends on your opinion.

To
me the differences between an elf and a human are: Elves have greater
agility and senses (thus leading directly into better reflexes, sight,
and hearing), are naturally long lived or immortal regarding aging, and
tend to be more graceful and charismatic. They also know how to make
armor thats just as strong as human armor, but lighter.

You
just explained the reason why I NEVER liked elves. Read what you wrote.
They're superhumans with better agilist, better reflexes, immortality,
eternal youth, good looks, and charisma. Just..... NO.

This
would make elves superior than humans. Personally I always disliked
that. I like that in Dragon Age, elves aren't snotty treehuggers who
are so very superior than human beings. They still think they are like
that, if they're Dalish elves. But they really are not. They are
more.... realistic. Less like divine superbeings, and much more like
living creatures just like the rest of us. This made them so much more
likeable for me. And I won't make spoilers here, but I just thought
Zathrian was so badass.

That's why he said it's opinion?

[th3warr1or]

Actually, to all of you saying Tolkien elves are overpowered... no they're not. Only Legolas is..



[Two Towers Spoilers] Haldir dies at the hand of an orc.. so they're not impossibly skilled or anything..

[Ashlag]

th3warr1or wrote...

Actually, to all of you saying Tolkien elves are overpowered... no they're not. Only Legolas is..

[Two Towers Spoilers] Haldir dies at the hand of an orc.. so they're not impossibly skilled or anything..

Well, yeah, if you're using the movies as the base example of Tolkien, which it absolutely shouldn't be. Legolas and Haldir in the movies are Peter Jackson (and the rest of the writers) created elves; they are not Tolkien's characters.

But, your point is valid. The elves in LOTR obviously look super strong, there are only a handful that are really mentioned in a lot of detail, and only one is actually amazing (Glorfindel), Legolas, the one we learn the most about, is just another character, yeah, he kills a lot of enemies at Helm's Deep, but everyone does, the point of the battle is a small force defeating a larger, so of course all of the victorious side are going to be killing a lot of their enemies.

But, in the Silmarillion elves are no better fighters than humans or dwarves. Elves die in huge numbers in battles against Morgoth, and while there are instances of elves doing incredible things (Fingolfin-injures Morgoth, a "god"), humans also do incredible things (Hurin-kills a dragon). Tolkien's elves are no better than humans at everything, some are amazing because they have seen the Trees and they are so ancient (Galadrial, Elrond, many of the heros of the first age), but many of those nameless elves who die in battle in the First Age had seen the light of the Trees and orcs slayed them just as easily as anyone else.

[mksmylover69]

I always thought Vulcans were lost elves

[Tirigon]

@ Slaign: If you read Tolkiens works and dont rely on the movies you will see that the elves there are just like you wanted them. They have so damn lot issues and problems, its really sad. Actually, the entire Silmarillion deals mainly with the elves ruining everything by their false pride, greed and arrogance.
@ FlintlockJazz: There was a misunderstanding here, im talking about a german novel called "Die Elfen", that has really nothing to do with the anime series Elfen Lied. (Except, that in both cases a large part consists of things getting killed )  Actually, I dont know much about Elfen Lied cos I couldnt see any sense in it except watching a nude girl chopping heads off, what doesnt really turn me on

[FlintlockJazz]

Tirigon wrote...

@ FlintlockJazz: There was a misunderstanding here, im talking about a german novel called "Die Elfen", that has really nothing to do with the anime series Elfen Lied. (Except, that in both cases a large part consists of things getting killed )  Actually, I dont know much about Elfen Lied cos I couldnt see any sense in it except watching a nude girl chopping heads off, what doesnt really turn me on

Yeah I was kind of clutching at straws trying to make connection there, pretty much the fact that I think both titles are german I believe is about all they had in common.  As for the series, yeah the first half pretty much is what you described and the only reason I sat through it is because I was reliable informed that there was more to it, and there is to be fair, I'm just still not convinced the dismemberments by naked girls was entirely necessary for the plot to be honest...   Quite horrific really...

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:04 .

[Mandalorian_Commando]

The overwhelming superiority of Tolkien like elves annoys me.

[robertthebard]

T1l wrote...

Slaign wrote...

But you're trying to prove to me it's false, and you can't the evidence doesn't exist.

That's true, we have a severe lack of evidence to say categorically one way or the other.

You are trying to say dreams in this world do not exist. But that's possibly more an assumption than that they do.

Considering the amount of information we have to base Thedas lore on, I would say the opposite. The guidelines for what happens when any individual or creature dreams are given; they are stated and for the most part mutually affirming in their different sources (be it what the Chantry says in dogma, or what the Circle records in experiments).

The point is, my theory works. I don't believe it as fact, because I don't have conclusive evidence, but it works as a theory. And having a workable theory, to me, means there is no plot hole. A plot hole is a contradiction that can't be explained. There is no unexplainable contradiction here.

Your theory works if you chose to disregard what has been given to us as fact (and that term should be used loosely, as even Gaider himself has said you can't be sure of what is and isn't fact when dealing with different sources). However!

Fact: Dwarfs can enter the fade.
Fact: Dwarfs dream.
Fact: Dwarfs both dream AND enter the fade.
Fact: Loading screen and codex state Dwarfs have no connection to the Fade and do not enter the Fade when they dream.

That to me is a contradiction that needs explaining.

Dwarves do not naturally enter the Fade, but they can be pulled in.  This is not the same as just dreaming yourself into the Fade, this is a Demon, or Spirit pulling the dwarf in.  While they aren't directly connected to it, the Fade is a real place.  If you want to discuss a fallacy with the Fade, why is it that only mages are supposed to be aware in the Fade, and yet you can be aware if forced to be there.  This is also in one of the loading screen tips.  Now, if a person that can't normally be aware in the Fade can be if they are forced to be there, what's to stop other races, that aren't normally able to go from being drawn there by a Demon or other spirit?

Fact:  The Fade is a real place.
Fact:  The beings that live there naturally have powerful magic.
Fact:  With that powerful magic, they can pull anyone into the Fade they wish.
Fact:  Since they can pull anyone they wish in, and since the Fade is a real place, dwarves can be pulled into the Fade.

[T1l]

robertthebard wrote...

If you're going to bother to pull out one post in a string of many to criticise, please, read them as a whole.

David Gaider lays this topic to rest not two posts after that one you quoted. The topic is over.

Modifié par T1l, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:41 .

[T1l]

Double post?

Modifié par T1l, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:43 .

[weism]

Actually, the way I see it. Dragon Age elfs are the same as LOTR elfs race wise. They are just the same elf on different time period. Give LOTR another 1000 years, The two will be pretty much the same.

[DaeFaron]

In LOTR, elves are a reclining race as humans rise to the big power seats.

In Dragon age, the elven nations are destroyed and humans are in the big power seats.



Oh, the actual version of the battle of Helms Deep is far different. The horsemen, for example are already with the king and a large group of infantry forces are coming to arrive. Another thing is there are no elves besides Legolas in the battle.