361 réponses à ce sujet

[Xylaggag]

It's about time the elves were shoved off their pedestals. My lord.

[Dreogan]

To answer the original post: No, I don't prefer Tolkien's elves.



(semi-spoiler)



This is why I went for murdering the elves closest to Tolkien's elves, and enjoyed every minute of it.

[totertot]

I like the original idea in this game, that elves used to be immortal and powerful but are no longer. I like the city and Dalish elves, how they are starting to regain their culture, but are not super duper overpowered unkillable beings.

[DaeFaron]

In my opinion, the way the elves are done can get annoying.



Honestly, to me the races should all have their gifts and curses, and none should be dominant over the others. Such as the humans get their quicker learning because of a shorter lifestyle and they don't hold grudges. While the elves remember mistakes of many human generations back can sometimes can have a narrow mindset.

[Colin_Stock]

I like the change in social position that DA:O elves have over Tolkein's. However, the elves from Feist's Midkemian books are better realised than Tolkeins. And although I haven't read the books for a while, I believe the elves from Katherine Kerr's world were better also. Tolkein's elves are too saintly.

[DaeFaron]

Well, think about their skills this way.



John is 43 years old, and has practiced his profession(blacksmith, knight, whatever) since he was 6 years old. He is considered a master among his peers and can outdo a good number of people in a contest of skill. This is a human



Jim is 257 years old, he also practiced his profession young, starting around 10-15 years old. Like John, among his peers Jim is a master and easily wins contests. This man is an elf.



Jim and John meet and have a contest of skills, Jim will easily win because he has 200 years more experience then John, and knows more techniques. This example applies to hunters, archers, rogues, soldiers, knights, blacksmiths, artisans.

[Maconbar]

Why do so many characterize Tolkien's elves as goody-two-shoes, or saintly or whatever? In the Hobbit, the wood elves are portrayed fairly negatively and many of the elves at Rivendell are flighty/silly beings. The wood elves imprison the dwarves and later are perfectly willing to go to war against the dwarves. In LOTR the elves play a very minor role. The elves of Lorien are fairly insular. They provide some assistance and counsel and thats about it. Legolas was probably the least important member of the Fellowship.

[DaeFaron]

Yep, the wood elves of Mirkwood were rather greedy, and the Lorien elves almost refused the Fellowship because of Frodo, and had to be convinced to allow entrance.

[MerinTB]

Last two posts (Maconbar and DaeFaron) give plenty of reasons for my "prissy" comment.

[Roxlimn]

That was unreasonable, I agree. Toll Kin Elves would have simply asked for a fee for passing through their lands - unless you're a relative, in which case you get a discount.

[Lughsan35]

th3warr1or wrote...

I enjoy, to an extent the lore and history BioWare has created for Dragon Age. 
Dwarves using swords, and speaking without scottish accents, Elves are shorter than humans, not immortal and overall are the second class citizens while Humans are the masters.

But after awhile, the novelty of the idea wears thin, and I prefer the LoTR style elves(generic high fantasy) ala Legolas and Elrond. I'm fine with the Humans(they didn't change much about it, it's still pretty much the generic fantasy human).

Basically, does anyone else prefer the LoTR elves? Naturally skilled archers, immortal, and tall and graceful creatures.

I hold most of what Tolkien and his fans have done to promote pedophilia, and other bad things.  High Fantasy elves are better than everyone else is sooooooo last century.

[DaeFaron]

And how might that be Lughsan?

[Ashlag]

Lughsan35 wrote...

th3warr1or wrote...

I enjoy, to an extent the lore and history BioWare has created for Dragon Age. 
Dwarves using swords, and speaking without scottish accents, Elves are shorter than humans, not immortal and overall are the second class citizens while Humans are the masters.

But after awhile, the novelty of the idea wears thin, and I prefer the LoTR style elves(generic high fantasy) ala Legolas and Elrond. I'm fine with the Humans(they didn't change much about it, it's still pretty much the generic fantasy human).

Basically, does anyone else prefer the LoTR elves? Naturally skilled archers, immortal, and tall and graceful creatures.

I hold most of what Tolkien and his fans have done to promote pedophilia, and other bad things.  High Fantasy elves are better than everyone else is sooooooo last century.

agreeing with DaeFaron here, yeah, wait what? pedophilia?

[Kaosgirl]

Tirigon wrote...

I know that elves are from ancient mythology, but to me it was Tolkiens description that made them what they are, cant help it.
@ Kaosgirl: Well, we dont stop calling a dog "dog", but we have names for the different races of dogs. And we definitely dont call domestic dogs of nowadays "wolves", what were their ancestors.
So your statement rather justifies my opinion and doesnt oppose it :-p

Actually, no.  Wolves were more "cousins" of the species we domesticated, just like coyotes and dingos.

And if you want to get into secondary naming, we have Drow and Dhalish and such things already.  They are all subtypes of the more general Elves.

...

Of course, you admit this yourself later

[Kaosgirl]

DaeFaron wrote...

Well, think about their skills this way.

John is 43 years old, and has practiced his profession(blacksmith, knight, whatever) since he was 6 years old. He is considered a master among his peers and can outdo a good number of people in a contest of skill. This is a human

Jim is 257 years old, he also practiced his profession young, starting around 10-15 years old. Like John, among his peers Jim is a master and easily wins contests. This man is an elf.

Jim and John meet and have a contest of skills, Jim will easily win because he has 200 years more experience then John, and knows more techniques. This example applies to hunters, archers, rogues, soldiers, knights, blacksmiths, artisans.

This is often mitigated by elves having an immortal's notion of time, which is quite different from that held by mortals.  Jim may have had an extra 200 years in which to gather experience, but by human standards he's been quite lazy and unmotivated about doing so.  Things could always wait until tomorrow, after all there is no forseeable end of tomorrows coming for Jim.  And the quality of said experience thus suffers.

[Tirigon]

The question is, are Dalish, Drow or whatever elves in the tolkienesque meaning of elf, or are they beings called elf only for convenience, because the storywriter was (just like Tolkien, for that matter) too lazy to invent his own name?

And well, the issue with elves just having more experience...  Yes I agree. Sure Kaosgirl MIGHT be right about the elves being lazy, but thats personal, nothing specific to all elves, and at least in case of the Doriath / Mirkwood elf warriors and Maedros´ Riders its definitely false, because all the lazy ones get eaten by orcs really soon. And I guess fighting for 2000 years gives you just that little more experience than the average human has    ;-)

Modifié par Tirigon, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:12 .

[Tekbear]

i never found any of the elves in lord of the rings appealing. they bored me to death actually. it was fine for the first read at 9 years old because they provided for some gloomyness and shiny mystic thingies but after a while i really got pissed off by their flawlessness.



so - yeah i have to admit i found myself satisfied to see the snobby buggers enslaved in dragon age

[andorman01]

I am under the impression that those people describing Tolien's elves as high and mighty perfect beings are only taking their impression from the movies instead of the books. In Tolkien's mythology the elves are the most tragic and ill-fated of the races of middle-earth, and are far from perfect.

[Wolf Northwind]

I agree with andorman01. There's too much movie elf in here. Just look at some of the stunts pulled by Legolas *vomits*.



Tolkiens Elves pay a harsh price for their greatness, they're responsible for a lot of the evil in the world if generally indirectly or through inaction. They are leaving the world for a reason.



Besides, DA elves (regardless of which flavour) ARE Tolkienesque elves, they still closely fit the definition Tolkien devised. Prior to that you have the Elves, Piskies and Sidhe of anglo-celtic mythology and the nordic and germanic Alfar/Svartalfar - neither are quite the same but both mythologies are influential.

[MerinTB]

andorman01 wrote...

I am under the impression that those people describing Tolien's elves as high and mighty perfect beings are only taking their impression from the movies instead of the books. In Tolkien's mythology the elves are the most tragic and ill-fated of the races of middle-earth, and are far from perfect.

I read the books before the movies came out.  In fact I FORCED myself to read all three parts before the movies came out because I wanted to compare.  And it was PAINFUL to read them, Tolkien's writing style so annoys me -  I've never watched the Travel channel nor bought any books on places to visit, those aren't my things, so it's probably understandable why the travel-logs that were good portions of the book (the parts that weren't painfully awful songs), the longwinded descriptions of every place they went, really bored me.

Tolkien had agendas when writing - agendas that came out so strongly it bothered me, so I did research on the man and learned where he was coming from.  He created the elves as the perfect beings, beings that were being driven away by imperfect beings with their industrialization.

Tolkiens's elves were immortal, they could walk and talk at a very young age (young for HUMANS, even), were seemingly mature in what would account for their preteen years, stopped aging at their prime, were wise and knowledgeable and pure and good to nature - they were monogamous to a fault, always married once for life, adultery was unheard of . . .
just refreshing my memory from here - http://en.wikipedia...._(Middle-earth) - so you can fact check my info there and where they draw their info from.

They are the "Superman"''s of Middle-Earth.  Their only real "flaw" is they leave the world in its time of need (basically, they are above the problems of men and dwarves and hobbits, the way I read it.)

You could argue arrogance is their flaw, but my reading wasn't that they were arrogant by Tolkien's implications but truly superior.  I find them arrogant, but I do not think that was Tolkien's intention.

Modifié par MerinTB, 07 décembre 2009 - 06:34 .

[andorman01]

MerinTB wrote...

andorman01 wrote...

I am under the impression that those people describing Tolien's elves as high and mighty perfect beings are only taking their impression from the movies instead of the books. In Tolkien's mythology the elves are the most tragic and ill-fated of the races of middle-earth, and are far from perfect.

I read the books before the movies came out.  In fact I FORCED myself to read all three parts before the movies came out because I wanted to compare.  And it was PAINFUL to read them, Tolkien's writing style so annoys me -  I've never watched the Travel channel nor bought any books on places to visit, those aren't my things, so it's probably understandable why the travel-logs that were good portions of the book (the parts that weren't painfully awful songs), the longwinded descriptions of every place they went, really bored me.

Tolkien had agendas when writing - agendas that came out so strongly it bothered me, so I did research on the man and learned where he was coming from.  He created the elves as the perfect beings, beings that were being driven away by imperfect beings with their industrialization.

Tolkiens's elves were immortal, they could walk and talk at a very young age (young for HUMANS, even), were seemingly mature in what would account for their preteen years, stopped aging at their prime, were wise and knowledgeable and pure and good to nature - they were monogamous to a fault, always married once for life, adultery was unheard of . . .
just refreshing my memory from here - http://en.wikipedia...._(Middle-earth) - so you can fact check my info there and where they draw their info from.

They are the "Superman"''s of Middle-Earth.  Their only real "flaw" is they leave the world in its time of need (basically, they are above the problems of men and dwarves and hobbits, the way I read it.)

You could argue arrogance is their flaw, but my reading wasn't that they were arrogant by Tolkien's implications but truly superior.  I find them arrogant, but I do not think that was Tolkien's intention.

You forced yourself to read books you admit to not enjoying, and you also think passing off a wikipedia source is is fact checking?

My friend, I have read the trilogy several times, including all appendices.  I have read several Tolkien biographies including his autobiography.  I have read the Silmarillion (the DEFINING lore of the elves) too many times to count.  I have read all his notes published by his son Christopher after his death.  I have read Tolkien's most obscure material and studied his world with childish delight, even into my thirties.  I can tell you that you DO NOT know what Tolkien's vision of the elves are if this is all you can say about them.

Tolkien had no "agenda," he simply saw what the industrialization of nations could do to humanity, having been in the trenches of WWI.  Show me a writer who doesn't use his own experiences in his writing.

If elves are perfect super-men, then why did Feanor slay his kin in persuit of the Silmarils?  Why did Maeglin betray Gondolin?  The house of Numenor was founded by Elros half-elven, yet that Island kingdom was destroyed by the wrath of the Valar for their crimes.  How were the elves so easily swayed by Sauron, servant of Melkor, into showing him their deepest secrets, thus enabling him to create the rings of power, if they were "perfect supermen?"  Iluvatar gave his greatest gift not to elves, but to men.  As the elves are bound forever to this world and its fate, men have the release of death and the journey to a place that even the elves do not know.

The elves of the trilogy are an ancient, dwindled race.  They are wise and powerful, that is true, but it is the kind of wisdom that comes from centuries of sorrow and struggle.  They show a deep regret that could only come from knowing the true extent of their past mistakes - a world sundered, innocence lost, betrayal done to and by their own kin, and the rise of great evil in their wake. 

The elven exodus to the west was not an exile, but a homecoming.

Modifié par andorman01, 07 décembre 2009 - 07:30 .

[Tirigon]

Its no wonder you are annoyed by Tolkiens books if you read them as political agenda or travel records or sh*t like that.

You have to read them as fantasy to enjoy them.

And I think Tolkien meant arrogance to be their flaw, at least considering their actions in the Silmarillion (slaying TWO entire elven towns just to get some jewels?! If thats no character flaw I really dunno.)

[Curlain]

Well as to the nature of his writting in LOTR, you will either llike the descriptive nature of his text or not, I loved it, but other friends I have find it really tough getting through it. So that part of it comes down to taste, as for the elves themselves, it's worth reading the Silimarlion and other tales of the Elder Days (this is the context of why the elves are the nature they are in LOTR) they are fare from perfect, all wise and knowledgable beings there, there mistakes and faults led to their explusion from Valinor and to increasing defeats to their near end at Morgoth's hand. Feanor's anger and selfishness nearly doomed all the elves. And Saeros was elf who was both jealouse of the human Turin for his achievements, and ploted first his murder and attempted to slay him. These are not isolated incidents, and elves generally could fall to orcs as easily as men sometimes so their are not superhuman. If they appear all wise by LOTR it's cause some of them have been around a long time, through much of the more terrible stuff they were a part of and learned wisdom the hard way.

[Ickabod27]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

this made me laugh, and I agree with him.

[keesio74]

The portrayal of dwarfs surprised me more. To see dwarves without beards was the strangest to me. But Oghren was portrayed as a somewhat typical dwarf (beard, drinks a lot, crude, etc)