290 réponses à ce sujet

[th3warr1or]

Jory is absolutely a coward. He might even have survived the Joining. Now, why do I say he's a coward?

When Daveth said "I'd sacrifice a lot more if I knew it'd stop the Blight.", I said "You make a good point.". Daveth then asked Jory if he would die to save his wife from the Darkspawn, and he said "I...".

Seriously, that was a hypothetical question on whether he would sacrifice his life if he knew it would save his wife and he couldn't even give an answer? He avoided the question.

Now, I'm not saying that I'm brave in war or anything, and honestly, I wouldn't want to die if my wife was pregnant either(I don't even want to die in a battle at all), but seriously... if it was to save my wife, I'd do it without a second though, as would most people too I think.

[T1l]

Cool story, Hansel.

[HoLyEmperor]

th3warr1or wrote...

... if it was to save my wife, I'd do it without a second though, as would most people too I think.

Nah, I'd send her to battle instead while I run to Orlais. 

[Tyrias Greysong]

Well, he is a Knight of the Realm. His loyalty to Ferelden should come before his desire to live on.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Ya, he is a pansy. I never pass up on a chance to emasculate him.

[th3warr1or]

T1l wrote...

Cool story, Hansel.

Me name's Gretel though =/

[izmirtheastarach]

This is why Duncan recruits Daveth, because he sees himself in him. Killing Jory was a tad excessive. Why not just force him to drink the blood? I guess it was self-defense.

[The Angry One]

Forcing a panicking man to drink that blood would be as good as killing him I'd think. Only more painful.

[David Falkayn]

He's not a coward--he's just in way over his head. As he says, he's not used to taking on something that he can't beat with a blade. Put him in a regular battle with regular type foes and he'd do just fine. But this type of fight--it's way beyond him. Duncan screwed up in recruiting him--he seemed a good pick at the time, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

[Nyaore]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

This is why Duncan recruits Daveth, because he sees himself in him. Killing Jory was a tad excessive. Why not just force him to drink the blood? I guess it was self-defense.

Because chances are that Jory would have run off and started telling everyone in the camp about what had just occured, which isn't a good thing when you consider the fact that Grey Warden's are already on shakey ground in Ferelden and need to keep the specifics of the Joining ritual a secret. Sure, it could be argued that it wouldn't have matter if Jory ran around telling everyone given the outcome of the battle at Ostagar, but none of them were aware that Loghain would betray them and cost them the fight so that point is moot.

[th3warr1or]

David Falkayn wrote...
Put him in a regular battle with regular type foes and he'd do just fine.

No. That guy wanted to go back because a group of soldiers were ambushed by Darkspawn. The fact that he has to think on whether he's willing to die to ensure his wife's safety is being a coward.

[Korva]

No, it makes him a normal human being. Humans, including men (despite what the inane propaganda about "masculinity" claims) are fallible and most aren't happy with the thought of throwing their lives away. Yes, he could use a little more courage and definitely less focus on "glory". But I can't really blame him for freaking out after Daveth dies. It really is one thing to risk your life in a proper fight, with an enemy you can see and possibly defeat -- and another to die in agony drinking tainted blood without even having been warned it could kill you.

Plus, he kept a pretty level head when faced with Morrigan and Flemeth, unlike Daveth who just about pissed himself and (as Jory pointed out) was telling those witches some potentially rather offensive things right to their faces which is hardly smart. Jory has something to live for, Daveth apparently don't. That's a factor, too.

Frankly I found them both somewhat annoying, but I don't get why some people heap hate on Jory yet think Daveth is so cool.

[Super_Fr33k]

He's not just a coward. He's also stupid. Be fair.



But yeah, Jory's problem is that he only understands his own brute strength, and his incapacity to understand unusual enemies (darkspawn) prevents him from accepting or conceiving unusual methods of defeating them.



And Duncan was justified in killing him. The dire disadvantage the Grey Wardens face at Ostagar, and against the limitless hordes of darkspawn in general, is such that they can't risk relying on cowards, or risk them exposing secrets.



Shame that Daveth died though. He got it at least.

[Roxlimn]

Daveth died in seconds after drinking the tainted blood. That's as merciful a death as any soldier can hope for. Sometimes, your enemy captures you and tortures you to death. How anyone can trust Ser Jory with a blade when he's like that is beyond me.

[Endurium]

He apparently went into the whole thing blind rather than doing a little research to discover that some who try to join the Wardens are never seen again. I would have checked into it, especially with a pregnant wife to care for.

In the end, she's probably better off without him. As one of the early conversation options with him says, "You're not too bright, are you?"

Modifié par Endurium, 06 décembre 2009 - 04:38 .

[kevinwastaken]

He also has the distinction of being one of the 3 ugliest characters in DAO.

[MassEffect762]

Jory should have stayed home, Duncan should have never recruited ANYONE with a wife and kid.

[Nyaore]

MassEffect762 wrote...

Jory should have stayed home, Duncan should have never recruited ANYONE with a wife and kid.

Eh, when a Blight is coming all normal recruiting measures are probably thrown out the window. Remember Grey Wardens will do anything if it helps stop the Blight, including recruiting someone with a growing family like they did with Jory.

[Roxlimn]

If Ser Jory wusses out at any thought of pain and risk of death, how the heck is he even a frakking soldier?! Soldier risk death on the battlefield everyday. His reaction to the Darkspawn ambush was telling. By that point, I was expecting to lose him somewhere on the field through desertion - I had completely lost faith in him as a warrior.



It's possible that Duncan was only able to get his hands on Jory because no one else wanted him - a jittery, risk-averse warrior with courage issues isn't someone you want on your team.

[HarlequinDream]

While Duncan had to have made the offer, Jory never mentions being conscripted. His involvement with the Gray Wardens seems to have been his choice.



Duncan is fair. In the human noble origin, he does not demand your parents let you become a Gray Warden until he realizes that there's nothing left for you. I believe he would have given Jory the option of saying no at the start. But once he signed on, it was done.

[Mnemnosyne]

I think it really was pretty much the fact that he had no control over his fate, and wasn't being told the entire story at any point was what he couldn't handle. That may make him a questionable soldier but I'm not sure a coward really. Sure, Daveth seemed cooler, but Jory was essentially, a simple man put in a situation far beyond him.

I suspect he would have had no issue standing on the front line of the battle when the darkspawn charged at him, with his comrades and his army alongside him facing the enemy army in straight up war and combat. Even though he knows he has a good chance of dying in that situation, he seemed like he was entirely ready to do that. That's hardly cowardice.

That he was afraid to wander through enemy-occupied territory in a group of four, when as far as he knows, there's no way to know if they'll stumble into a band of a hundred darkspawn over the next hill is entirely reasonable. Especially when they're being sent out there without a particularly good reason - there's no real explanation of why we need darkspawn blood, and the treaties were mentioned as a side-objective and of relatively questionable status and importance.

As for when it came to drinking the blood, that was handled horribly poorly by Duncan anyway. Having each of the candidates drink the blood in order, so they have to watch the previous one(s) die? It would make a lot more sense to hand them three cups and have them all drink it together. At least it would mean you don't have the shock and horror of seeing someone die in front of you, from something that you have absolutely no control over, and immediately after being asked to do the same thing.

And then, compounded atop all of that is the fact that none of them are told why this is important at all. They're forced to leap, completely blindly, into a ritual that may kill them, and they're not even told why the ritual is important or why Grey Wardens must go through it in order to be able to end Blights. Would it have made a difference? Maybe. Probably, even. If Jory understood that only a Grey Warden, only someone who had been through the Joining could possibly kill the Archdemon, then at least he would understand why he's being asked to gamble his life on the chance that he will survive the Joining. As it is, he is never given a real reason to gamble his life in that manner, he isn't told how this will protect Ferelden, why it is necessary in order to keep his wife and child safe.

And in the end, Daveth being so willing to go through with it without hesitation only speaks to what his other options are. Daveth is a criminal, saved from hanging or some similar fate by becoming a Grey Warden. Even if he had the option to refuse the Joining, why would he? Gambling his life on the result of the Joining is better than the relative certainty of being hung if he doesn't. Jory, on the other hand, has a life with a (presumably) loving wife, a respected position as a Knight of Redcliffe, and a son on the way. He has everything to live for, and no reason to gamble his life on something he does not understand in the slightest.

[Roxlimn]

Koyasha:

We KNOW how he reacts to seeing death on the battlefied from a darkspawn ambush: badly. How much worse would he be if he knew he was going into a suicidal charge against a Dragon with unwinnable odds? Because you know, soldiers are occasionally asked to do that in war.

On a field of battle in the frontlines with darkspawn charging at him, I totally expect him to desert at first opportunity. The man has no backbone.

Soldiery is not about being reasonable. It's about doing what you're ordered to do no matter what. More than physical training, that is what Boot Camp is all about - to turn you into soldiers willing to walk off a cliff if your commanding officer tells you to do it.

Jory is supposed to be a hardened soldier. He's supposed to be used to seeing his comrades fall all around him while he's left alone to withstand whatever is killing everyone. Seeing Daveth die would be an issue - for a civilian. For a soldier? Of course not. Jory had a chance to live - that's all any soldier can ask for.

No soldier is told why his suicidal charge is important. If commanders had to explain every little strategic detail to every soldier, nothing would ever get done. Jory was being a bad soldier, pure and simple - he was a coward and a deserter. If he fled like that on the field of battle, he would get no better, and even worse.

With his weakness at the Joining, his name will be remembered with honor. As a deserter, his name and the name of his family and children will be blackened for generations. He's unreliable and unprofessional and commanded by fear. I cannot trust him as a traveling companion nor as a Grey Warden, even if he had lived through it. It was all for the better that he died when he did.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 06 décembre 2009 - 05:16 .

[andysdead]

key point, without reading all the posts: Jory is a coward. A Grey Warden's life is about sacrifice and putting the good of the many above the good of the few. Is Jory the kind of person Duncan wants in the Grey Wardens? No.



Even if he survived the blood, he would have made a very poor Warden. So he had to die.

[corebit]

Zafezase wrote...

Jory is a selfish person. He sees himself as having a chance for glory by joining the Gray Wardens, but wusses out at the end when it might involve something that could take his life away.

What gives you that idea? I haven't read anything that suggests that during his conversations. He sounds like a very honorable man leaving his pregnant wife to join the Wardens. He was not conscripted by force, or put into an "inevitable" position like Daveth. That is courage right there. But he really had no idea what kind of enemy he was facing. He figured it was just a traditional "serve the country" duty, and he was optimistic that it would end well so he could return to his family afterwards.

He sounds more human and realistic than most "heroic" NPCs out there. People who dismiss him as a coward really haven't put themselves in his shoes or are not married with kids in real life. Really, how many of you who do that in real life? Words are so much easier than actions. He is no stranger to killing, but fighting darkspawn really felt like a hopeless endeavor. And that was something that he was not prepared for.