290 réponses à ce sujet

[Saurel]

Didn't you have a big beef about it not being dark enough or was it that its considered dark by some people?

[Roxlimn]

Nope. I said it shouldn't have been labeled "dark fantasy" and that it was probably only labeled that way for marketing purposes. I didn't have a problem with its heroic nature.

[Saurel]

Roxlimn wrote...

Nope. I said it shouldn't have been labeled "dark fantasy" and that it was probably only labeled that way for marketing purposes. .

Ok yeah I'm in agreement with you on that..since dark fantasy sounds more hip... I suspect to marketting execs.

But not to derail.

[rumblefv]

Roxlimn wrote...

It's unfortunate that Ser Jory panicked when he did. It happens, and it's tragic, but it doesn't change what happened. I'm sure that if Duncan had known for sure that Jory would react the way he did, that he would have sent him home instead. That's a waste of good manpower right there. He could be tilling the fields or manning some minor police post somewhere.

It's hard to measure someone's courage and self-sacrifice unless you put them on the spot. That said, what bothers me though is that Duncan should have given Jory that speech prior to the recruitment about leaving behind family and holding the Grey Warden's goals above all else and Jory accepts this? I find that hard to believe the way he goes on and on about wife and his coming kid. Duncan should have seen through this and rejected him for another recruit. Oh well. Guess the story needed a scapegoat just to add that extra oomph to the dramatic Joining ritual.

[Roxlimn]

Ah, yes. Jory was a coward and an idiot, but it's quite tragic that he had to die like he did.



'Course, I wouldn't credit Daveth as being a better, as he already knew that he had no choice - he was meant for the gallows, or so I understand. So was the PC.

[Roxlimn]

rumblefv:



That, and I think Duncan was REALLY desperate for recruits. I mean, when your trawling the gallows and exiled noblemen and murderers for your recruits, I think it's fair to say that you're scraping.

[Spetulhu]

slackbheep wrote...

The fact that even those who don't know about the taint still consider joining the Wardens akin to a death sentence should probably have made Jory wonder if he might not survive to be the legendary hero he hoped.

Jory might be trapped in his station, you know. He's skilled enough to win a tournament but may still be a knight only because it was expected of him. Nobility is hereditary and even a "common" knight's son could be expected to learn the skills of his father so he can serve their lord. And it's not bad to be a knight - you have a reasonable standard of living and civilized opponents usually let you surrender in hope of ransom. If he gave it all up there wouldn't be anything remotely as safe or rewarding for him to do in order to make a living.

Hmm... With the wardens being a death sentence and Jory being none too bright... I wonder if the smarter knights lost the tournament on purpose?

[Cazlee]

Ser Jory could have fled the field at the first indication of battle in the Kokari wilds, but he didn't. Together we killed the all wolves and the darkspawn we encountered. Is this the action of a coward? No. Ser Jory proved to be a skilled and BRAVE warrior. However he was in over his head.



If you want to compare this to real life then the ritual is like being forced to drink the blood of a decaying corpse of an AIDS victim. Ser Jory signed up to be in an order of great warriors - not some sick blood drinking cult.



Ser Jory makes it clear that he does not fear dying an honorable death. However, he believes that choking and dying on blood is a death without honor.

[Obliterati]

I'm beginning to wonder at this point if people played a different game than I did...



People, play the Kocari Wilds level again. Jory does not panic, or freak out. When you and your gang find that battered soldier, the soldier - injured and semi-delerious - tells you that the whole damn Darkspawn horde is right around the corner. You can see for yourself that there was a signifigant force of badguys around...just look at all the bodies.



Jory, quite intelligently, notes that it would be pointless and suicidal to continue on into the teeth of the Darkspawn army. I agreed with him, based on available informtion...4 vs 10,000 is not a particularly good idea.



Of course, after Alistair told everyone tht he has secret Warden mind-fu and that the bulk of the Darkpawn horde was far away, then Jory continued on, reassured.



To think that Jory is a coward requires a willfull misinterpretation of available information. I'm pretty sure everyone understands this, which is why threads like this popping up again and again...



Plenty of people die in DA:O, cowards and heroes both. Why does Jory, a mostly irrelevant character that doesen't affect the story longterm, inspire such controversy? I suspect that people have to pretend he's a coward to justify (what was, in their minds) his cold-blooded murder at the hands of their beardly man-crush Duncan.



In the end, I think it's likely that both Jory and Duncan were right. Jory thought that the Wardens were a crazed bunch of blasphemous, lunatic death-cultists. Duncan thought that Jory represented both an immediate danger (because of his sword) and a long-term danger (because he knew some of the Warden's secrets). Both men did what they thought they had to do, and neither was clearly right or wrong. Which fits Dragon Age perfectly, in my opinion.









tl:dr - "Jory is a coward" does not fit in with the tone of the game, the available information, or the context of the situation.

[Saurel]

Obliterati wrote...


Jory, quite intelligently, notes that it would be pointless and suicidal to continue on into the teeth of the Darkspawn army. I agreed with him, based on available informtion...4 vs 10,000 is not a particularly good idea.

.

Agreed he seems quite rational. But like I said when you are playing the game, you kinda forget that since you can dispatch enemies so easily. Its kind of like the Human Noble Origin. "We don't need your help, Duncan. My Mom and I just killed 30 dudes!"

[Roxlimn]

Obliterati:



There weren't that many bodies around in that scene, and it being a supply train, a small scouting force could have done the damage - Jory was panicking with no clear sign of the army he fears, and with a Grey Warden to watch over him.



He was given his orders, and given those orders, his main concern, even IF the enemy army were right there, would have been to figure out how to take advantage of the situation to do his mission. He's a soldier, he should not be questioning orders, especially when he's got a superior officer walking right beside him! If anyone has a problem with communication lines and receiving order updates, it would be Alistair, not him.



Your little force meets with no meaningful resistance the entire way. It is not uncommon for a man to have his courage untested if he never sees any meaningful threat to his life, whether it's because he only participated in tourneys, or because he only ever fights opponents who never offer a significant challenge.



Taking down down small-time foes who never have any weapons that can punch through your body armor isn't any meaningful test of courage.



Cowardice isn't necessarily the presence of fear - it's the inability to deal with it when it's important. Jory clearly shows fear in the ambush scene because you have to reassure him. If he could deal with it himself, he shouldn't need any reassurance.



He does not show fear for the remainder of the mission. It doesn't mean that his ability to deal with his fear got any better - it could mean that he was never really fearful afterwards. The inability to feel fear is not courage - it's insanity.



I don't need to say that Jory was a coward to justify his execution. His traitorous act in itself was enough to do that, regardless of the reasons for it. I say he's a coward because he let his fear blind him to what was a clear cut and obvious choice. There was only one way he was making it out of that meeting alive and he didn't take it. That is not the action of a rational man.

[Akka le Vil]

Roxlimn wrote...

Akka le Vil:

He doesn't, in fact, "fight to the death" in the Korcari Wilds. All the fights there were against only scattered Darkspawn scouts, none of which were particularly powerful. At no point in the game does Ser Jory appear in a fashion that indicates that he's near death.

That's meta-gaming. Ffrom his point of view he's simply going on toe-to-toe fight against horrible monster, and he's not breaking. That's pretty courageous in my book.

And please don't make the assumption that none of us here have ever risked our lives in dangerous situations - you don't know us.

cglasgow wrote...

You are aware that several
posters on this thread have faced life-threatening danger irl? In the
military? No, of course not, because by your own admission you didn't
bother to read more than the intro to the thread before you felt able
to hand down moral judgement on everyone in it. So, phbbbbt.

Actually, that's why I said "99 %". Don't tell me that half the posters on this thread are battle-hardened military personnel, thanks. Some may be, but a tiny minority.
And I've some doubt that someone who REALLY had to fight face to face, hand to hand, another man that wanted to actually kill him, would seriously downplay how frightening it can be and casually throw "coward" at someone who could rise to do the same - unless he's just wanting to show off his machismo.
Not taking into account that this guy isn't just fighting humans - he's fighting quite horrible monsters, which is a step even above.

Ser Jory could have fled the field at the first indication of battle in
the Kokari wilds, but he didn't. Together we killed the all wolves and
the darkspawn we encountered. Is this the action of a coward? No. Ser
Jory proved to be a skilled and BRAVE warrior. However he was in over
his head.

This. This is a much more sensible and realistic depiction of the guy than the brainless, idiotic, armchair comments I saw from many others.

[Saurel]

Duncan wasn't rational for only having himself and Alistair oversee the event (weren't there other wardens at Ostagar?)...and for letting them keep their weapons

[Roxlimn]

Akka le Vil:

Actually, fighting horrible monsters makes combat LESS horrific, not more - because you're not killing people - just monsters and targets. It's when you start thinking of them as people that it really gets to you.

And no, just fighting hand to hand isn't all that bad, even if the other guy is out to kill you - if you always clearly and solidly have the upper hand, which you do in the Korcari Wilds. It's not the intent to kill that's scary - it's the possibility that it can actually happen.

There is no reason that a person who has faced down death by horrible physical wounds will be scared off so badly by the possibility of a quick death by drinking quick-acting poison that all reason and sense leaves him. Either the portrayal is way, way, way off (which I'm not discounting), or the guy simply never had to face down fear of death before.

Either way, Jory was a coward.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 06 décembre 2009 - 05:42 .

[Obliterati]

Roxlimn wrote...

He was given his orders, and given those orders, his main concern, even IF the enemy army were right there, would have been to figure out how to take advantage of the situation to do his mission. He's a soldier, he should not be questioning orders, especially when he's got a superior officer walking right beside him! If anyone has a problem with communication lines and receiving order updates, it would be Alistair, not him.

Perhaps I'm misremembering, or I didn't play through all the conversation options, but this is not at all the impression I took from this scene.

Duncan's orders were to to get darkspawn blood, and get the treaties. I don't Remember Jory ever saying they should quit or give up on the mission. I don't recall Jory suggesting they just slink back to camp and forget about the whole thing. All Jory did was note that their current plan would result in instant death if they stumbled into the bulk of the Darkspawn horde. Taking on the Darkspawn was not their mission, excluding the few needed for the involuntary blood donation.

All soldiers need reassurance on occasion. Sometimes that takes the form of a gun to the back of their heads to stiffen their spines. Sometimes they need to be reassured that they are doing the right thing. And sometimes they just need reassurance that they have a good plan, or that their officers know what the hell they are doing.

To me, Jory falls in to the last group. He never tried to run away, he never gave up, he never quit...he wanted to succeed. He was (very briefly) under the impression that he was on a sure-to-lose suicide mission. Alistair reassured him that, despite appearances, Alistair did know what he was doing, and they weren't all going to be ignominiously slain. 

In my experience, all soldiers complain all the time, and all soldiers want to avoid being killed if at all possible. I have personally heard dozens of very brave men express doubts about their mission, their tactics, or their chances of survival. I'm not claiming to be Rambo (I spent my time in Iraq fixing computers), but I don't think of them as weak. There's a difference between cowardice and prudence.  And sometimes people need to be reassured. In the end, it's the results that matter. The result was that Jory never quit, he fought well, and the mission was successful.

[Roxlimn]

You're right. It is the results that matter. In the end, Jory balked at the worst possible time for his own personal safety (and that of his wife and kid). Because he couldn't deal with his fear. Arguably, he never learned how to.



Not all soldiers complain all the time - it depends on the company and the commander's disposition. If morale is especially high, you won't get much bellyaching at all. Of course, everyone doesn't like getting killed. It'd be stupid to want to be killed - that's actually one of the things you have to watch out for - it's suicidal ideation.



I don't have any problems with Jory expressing doubts and all, but my impression there was that he wanted to back out of the mission because he was afraid - you could see it in the character's expression. He wasn't like, "Maybe we should find an alternate route just in case," or "We should find a way to get around the Darkspawn force so we can get to the tower site."



He assumes the worst possible outcome, even though Alistair is standing right there, presumably leading the team - a Darkspawn expert, no less. How much more of a reassurance does a soldier need, than to have an elite unit leader assigned to babysit you through what is assuredly a lightweight mission?



Sure, it could all go to hell in a handbasket in 10 seconds, but at least you have a guy who knows what's what in your unit.



Jory was placed under the command of the best people in Ferelden as far as Darkspawn is concerned. The only place safer would be right under the King's nose. How is it that he needs reassurances that Grey Wardens would know what they're doing fighting Darkspawn? That doesn't ring true at all.



I mean, would YOU need reassurances that a registered and licensed Dive Master is qualified to take you on a 10 foot dive? You can be all fearful and jittery, but questioning the Dive Master's qualifications isn't a reasonable reaction - it's because you're scared and you can't deal with it.

[Saurel]

Roxlimn wrote...



Jory was placed under the command of the best people in Ferelden as far as Darkspawn is concerned. The only place safer would be right under the King's nose. How is it that he needs reassurances that Grey Wardens would know what they're doing fighting Darkspawn? That doesn't ring true at all.

Of course Jory was the equivalent of a red shirt as soon as he mentioned his family. I think any process to fully comprehend Jory's mindset will ultimately be undermined by the fact he is a plot device.

[th3warr1or]

Cazlee wrote...
Ser Jory makes it clear that he does not fear dying an honorable death. However, he believes that choking and dying on blood is a death without honor.

Nu-uh. He wouldn't even die to save his wife's life... Daveth asked him. That's not courage. 

[MBirkhofer]

In the Ostigar, battle sequance, as the Darkspawn charge, one of the front line soldiers is shown to be backing away.
The one behind him, puts his hand n the first guys shoulder, holding the line.    He doesn't stab the potential deserter in the back, for breaking ranks.

[Original182]

My opinion is that Ser Jory thought being a Grey Warden would be all hero not unlike being a soldier, and that returning alive is a good possibility. He thought it was something he only had to do for a few years, then come back to his wife and son. So he counted on returning to his family.



Once he realizes how fatal being a Grey Warden is, he decided to want out.



I don't think he's a coward. He's a husband and a father, and he wants to live for them.

[kormesios]

th3warr1or wrote...

Cazlee wrote...
Ser Jory makes it clear that he does not fear dying an honorable death. However, he believes that choking and dying on blood is a death without honor.

Nu-uh. He wouldn't even die to save his wife's life... Daveth asked him. That's not courage. 

Jory got into a dangerous, scary situation and panicked.  That's one of the things that people mean by "coward," so fair enough.

The fact that he didn't give an acceptable hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation while in this state of panic isn't really additional evidence of anything.  Courage is what you do, not how well you debate.

I've read that in real life it was very hard to predict how a soldier would respond to his first combat--when they "saw the elephant."  I actually really like the Daveth (conscript/thief) vs. Jory (volunteer/knight) split.  Daveth develops a calm determination to fight, while the men writhing in agony from darkspawn blood are obviously eating away at Jory's confidence from the start.

[TheRealIncarnal]

That's because the solder only needed that to hold the line. Had he kept moving back I wouldn't be surprised if he had killed him.



I always enjoyed that big knight Jory was the coward and the "dishonorable" thief was the one that would have made the best Grey Warden.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jory was a soldier, so he is expected not to be a coward. I don't see why people who haven't risked their lives can't call him a coward. We don't have to be soldiers and warriors to expect those who are to be brave, especially one who is aspiring to be a Grey Warden.

He should have known his limits and stayed home. That owuldn't have made him a coward.

[Beerfish]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jory was a soldier, so he is expected not to be a coward. I don't see why people who haven't risked their lives can't call him a coward. We don't have to be soldiers and warriors to expect those who are to be brave, especially one who is aspiring to be a Grey Warden.
He should have known his limits and stayed home. That owuldn't have made him a coward.

Pretty well impossible to 'know your limits' when the limits are not communicated to you. 

Come sign up for this prestigous group that fights evil. 
We want you becausee you have proven to be a good warrior/knight.
Go out for a test quest to fetch some things.
You have passed the test, now it is time for our ceremony.

Oh we forgot to tell you to get into the prestigious group you have to drink a potioin that kills half of the people who drink it.....did we fail to mention that?

There is a big difference between being a coward and tossing your life away for no good reason.  Which is the wway I'd look at it and probably how he looked at it.  If jory had been 1st rather than after Daveth he probably would have taken the drink.

Modifié par Beerfish, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:27 .

[kormesios]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jory was a soldier, so he is expected not to be a coward. I don't see why people who haven't risked their lives can't call him a coward. We don't have to be soldiers and warriors to expect those who are to be brave, especially one who is aspiring to be a Grey Warden.
He should have known his limits and stayed home. That owuldn't have made him a coward.

It depends what you mean by coward.  Hiding in your home and being scared to even try is more cowardly than what Jory did, IMHO.

Would you call a person with a bad phobias a coward?  If someone's scared of  heights or needles, that doesn't mean much about anything else.

Jory did risk his life in combat multiple times without flinching, we are led to believe.  That's why he was recruited.  Jory's phobia just turned out to be ravening creatures of hell who can condemn you to a writhing death just by splashing blood on people.  Too bad he didn't know it was a phobia ahead of time, but there you go.

Modifié par kormesios, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:30 .