On that basis alone, I have to think that Duncan really was scraping the bottom of the barrel if someone like Ser Jory could be trusted to undergo the Joining. What if he had actually survived? Would he actually be strong enough to get past the reduced lifespan and the nightmares? Ultimately, as a Grey Warden, his duty is to die for sure killing the Archdemon. He doesn't even get a chance there - he's dead if he wins, and almost certainly dead if he loses. Can he be trusted to rush the Archdemon with a blade in hand?
No. Better he died the way he did.
Ser Jory is Nothing but a Coward.
Débuté par
th3warr1or
, déc. 05 2009 07:20
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#27
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:25
Mnemnosyne
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Some of what you say is true, but the worst moment I can see from him is being afraid when they encounter the one soldier crawling back. That is the most unreasonable spot for him to be concerned or nervous in.
You say he had a chance to live and that's all any soldier can ask for, but the difference is that in any normal situation, the soldier feels like he has a say in whether he lives or dies. Not in deciding whether to follow orders or not, but simply in his skill versus the odds he's facing. Even if the odds are insurmountable, even if he knows it's a suicidal charge, there is a huge difference, psychologically, in whether you can put your training to use or not.
The Joining is not the sort of situation a soldier is trained for, it's a very unfamiliar and unusual situation where all of their skill, their training, their strength and ability in battle count for absolutely nothing. That's really the key difference there, whether you're going down fighting or not.
Jory may indeed be a coward, and who's to say if he would have deserted or not, but the way the Joining is handled, it puts the person in an unreasonable position, and asks them to trust their life entirely to luck. Does a soldier always trust his life to luck? Yes, in a way he does, but it is never without at least an element of self-determination, which the Joining completely removes.
You say he had a chance to live and that's all any soldier can ask for, but the difference is that in any normal situation, the soldier feels like he has a say in whether he lives or dies. Not in deciding whether to follow orders or not, but simply in his skill versus the odds he's facing. Even if the odds are insurmountable, even if he knows it's a suicidal charge, there is a huge difference, psychologically, in whether you can put your training to use or not.
The Joining is not the sort of situation a soldier is trained for, it's a very unfamiliar and unusual situation where all of their skill, their training, their strength and ability in battle count for absolutely nothing. That's really the key difference there, whether you're going down fighting or not.
Jory may indeed be a coward, and who's to say if he would have deserted or not, but the way the Joining is handled, it puts the person in an unreasonable position, and asks them to trust their life entirely to luck. Does a soldier always trust his life to luck? Yes, in a way he does, but it is never without at least an element of self-determination, which the Joining completely removes.
#28
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:26
Roxlimn
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corebit:
Don't be so quick to judge people you don't know. Some people actually do put their lives on the line every day serving, and that's for real. Some of them die and never come back. They take that chance every day, even while watching comrades dying horrible deaths beside them.
Ser Jory showed no courage. He was enticed by pride - the glory of serving with the Grey Wardens was what drew him. No courage there. No soldier has a chance to really know what kind of enemy they're facing. In Ferelden facing the Darkspawn, you could be facing down ANYTHING out there. Traditional "serve the country" duties in brutal, medieval warfare doesn't normally end with you going back to your family - in many cases, it ends with a painful lingering death on a bed while your leg festers and rots from an incurable Darkspawn wound.
He was asked to take a reasonable chance at life with glory he sought, and he chickened out after saying that he wouldn't. He doesn't deserve the death he got. Duncan should've fed him alive to the Darkspawn.
Don't be so quick to judge people you don't know. Some people actually do put their lives on the line every day serving, and that's for real. Some of them die and never come back. They take that chance every day, even while watching comrades dying horrible deaths beside them.
Ser Jory showed no courage. He was enticed by pride - the glory of serving with the Grey Wardens was what drew him. No courage there. No soldier has a chance to really know what kind of enemy they're facing. In Ferelden facing the Darkspawn, you could be facing down ANYTHING out there. Traditional "serve the country" duties in brutal, medieval warfare doesn't normally end with you going back to your family - in many cases, it ends with a painful lingering death on a bed while your leg festers and rots from an incurable Darkspawn wound.
He was asked to take a reasonable chance at life with glory he sought, and he chickened out after saying that he wouldn't. He doesn't deserve the death he got. Duncan should've fed him alive to the Darkspawn.
#29
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:28
nuculerman
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The above post hits the nail on the head. I don't understand Jory hate at all. I think it must be the fact he's the ugliest male character in the game.
Not wanting to die for a cause that you don't understand in the slightest but someone you just met is telling you is of vital importance, is not cowardice. I mean if I told you to drink mercury because I believed it would help save the world from evil, what would you do? You'd probably demand to know what drinking mercury was going to do for you, and if I didn't give a reasonable answer you'd tell me to f*** off. Jory's circumstance is hardly different. The only real difference in that scenario is if a respected general in the US army asked you instead of me. Maybe if you had served under him for 5 years you'd say yes without question. But if he asked you to do it the day after you signed a form that said you wanted to try out for his elite squadron? Only an idiot would say, ok, sir, give me that cup of mercury.
Everyone and their mother knows that darkspawn blood is poison. And just in case Jory was too slow to catch on to that little fact, Duncan had Daveth die while drinking it right in front of him. Any reasonable person would have tried to run in that scenario unless they were like your character or Daveth and had nothing else to live for. If you're Dalish, you're only choice is become a Grey Warden or die of darkspawn poison. If you're a dwarf commoner or dwarf noble you're wanted dead in Orzamar and probably wouldn't find surface life all that fulfilling if you were a noble, and would probably be hunted down if you were a commoner. A human noble watched his whole family murdered and to make it out alive has to promise Duncan to become a Gray Warden, no matter the cost. A City Elf has a bounty on their head, and a Mage can either be hunted as an Apostate or join the Gray Wardens, even if you helped the First Enchanter because Gregoir is a class A a-hole. So for you and Daveth, following Duncan blindly is really your best choice in life. For Jory? Not really. He has a family he just started. He probably thought becoming a Gray Warden would impress his wife. Even he wasn't stupid enough to not realize it was highly dangerous, but he probably figured it wasn't any more so than being a knight that protects redcliffe. I mean, his King is telling everyone they have the blight well under control. He probably figures he joins the wardens, helps Cailan defeat the blight, and returns home a hero, or he stays home, gets called on as a knight to defend the darkspawn, and nothing else changes. The danger he's in isn't substantially different but the rewards are. No one told him it was highly likely he'd die before he even got to fight a darkspawn by drinking poison.
Not wanting to die for a cause that you don't understand in the slightest but someone you just met is telling you is of vital importance, is not cowardice. I mean if I told you to drink mercury because I believed it would help save the world from evil, what would you do? You'd probably demand to know what drinking mercury was going to do for you, and if I didn't give a reasonable answer you'd tell me to f*** off. Jory's circumstance is hardly different. The only real difference in that scenario is if a respected general in the US army asked you instead of me. Maybe if you had served under him for 5 years you'd say yes without question. But if he asked you to do it the day after you signed a form that said you wanted to try out for his elite squadron? Only an idiot would say, ok, sir, give me that cup of mercury.
Everyone and their mother knows that darkspawn blood is poison. And just in case Jory was too slow to catch on to that little fact, Duncan had Daveth die while drinking it right in front of him. Any reasonable person would have tried to run in that scenario unless they were like your character or Daveth and had nothing else to live for. If you're Dalish, you're only choice is become a Grey Warden or die of darkspawn poison. If you're a dwarf commoner or dwarf noble you're wanted dead in Orzamar and probably wouldn't find surface life all that fulfilling if you were a noble, and would probably be hunted down if you were a commoner. A human noble watched his whole family murdered and to make it out alive has to promise Duncan to become a Gray Warden, no matter the cost. A City Elf has a bounty on their head, and a Mage can either be hunted as an Apostate or join the Gray Wardens, even if you helped the First Enchanter because Gregoir is a class A a-hole. So for you and Daveth, following Duncan blindly is really your best choice in life. For Jory? Not really. He has a family he just started. He probably thought becoming a Gray Warden would impress his wife. Even he wasn't stupid enough to not realize it was highly dangerous, but he probably figured it wasn't any more so than being a knight that protects redcliffe. I mean, his King is telling everyone they have the blight well under control. He probably figures he joins the wardens, helps Cailan defeat the blight, and returns home a hero, or he stays home, gets called on as a knight to defend the darkspawn, and nothing else changes. The danger he's in isn't substantially different but the rewards are. No one told him it was highly likely he'd die before he even got to fight a darkspawn by drinking poison.
#30
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:28
PhD-gaming
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I agree. It seemed ridiculous that Duncan would have even given Ser Jory a second glance. The fact that he was killed rather than drinking the darkspawn blood irked me, too. Maybe he could have been more, but with his plain cowardice, it just seemed pointless to recruit him.
#31
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:32
Roxlimn
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Koyasha:
You don't understand at all. Soldiers don't get a say whether to follow orders or not. Soldiers who don't follow orders are called deserters and traitors and are killed wherever they're found. He doesn't get a say in ANYTHING - not where to sleep or when, not what to eat or where, or even what clothes to wear. He's not in a democracy - he's in an army, and in an army, you do what you're told even if it means facing down a machine gun in your underwear.
The Joining IS unfamiliar, you're right. It's BETTER. Soldiers who charge the field have a chance to die horrible, long, drawn out, painful deaths. Daveth's death was quick, even if painful. Soldiers prayed for that kind of death - quick.
Don't tell me that his skill won't avail him there. There are many cases in the field where your skill won't account for anything - and you're still asked to make that suicidal charge, maybe even purely as a diversion. And you better be making that charge or else.
Ser Jory was a soldier who was acting like a scaredy-cat civilian. He has no excuse - none whatsoever.
You don't understand at all. Soldiers don't get a say whether to follow orders or not. Soldiers who don't follow orders are called deserters and traitors and are killed wherever they're found. He doesn't get a say in ANYTHING - not where to sleep or when, not what to eat or where, or even what clothes to wear. He's not in a democracy - he's in an army, and in an army, you do what you're told even if it means facing down a machine gun in your underwear.
The Joining IS unfamiliar, you're right. It's BETTER. Soldiers who charge the field have a chance to die horrible, long, drawn out, painful deaths. Daveth's death was quick, even if painful. Soldiers prayed for that kind of death - quick.
Don't tell me that his skill won't avail him there. There are many cases in the field where your skill won't account for anything - and you're still asked to make that suicidal charge, maybe even purely as a diversion. And you better be making that charge or else.
Ser Jory was a soldier who was acting like a scaredy-cat civilian. He has no excuse - none whatsoever.
#32
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:36
corebit
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Roxlimn wrote...
On that basis alone, I have to think that Duncan really was scraping the bottom of the barrel if someone like Ser Jory could be trusted to undergo the Joining. What if he had actually survived? Would he actually be strong enough to get past the reduced lifespan and the nightmares? Ultimately, as a Grey Warden, his duty is to die for sure killing the Archdemon. He doesn't even get a chance there - he's dead if he wins, and almost certainly dead if he loses. Can he be trusted to rush the Archdemon with a blade in hand?
No. Better he died the way he did.
You are assuming as if everyone has already experienced years of Blight and knew exactly the cost and the sacrifice it would entail. Everyone (including the King and the living Grey Wardens) have never encountered a Blight before and for most it was their first time fighting darkspawn. Almost everyone was optimistic. How many centuries has it been since the last Blight?
Try to put yourself in the shoes of a soldier who is just battling darkspawn for the first time. You see their monstrous appearance. You see people returning after battles driven mad by darkspawn taint. You see them mutilate and impale corpses in the most gruesome way possible. I can bet you even the most seasoned veteran would feel very unnerving and hopeless.
Ser Jory represents what most of us would react to when facing something completely alien and terrifying.
#33
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:39
Roxlimn
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nuculerman:
No, I wouldn't. I'm regularly asked to risk MY life on nothing more than because the equipment is substandard and no one else is around to take the risk. I do it anyway.
If I had been asked to drink something I knew was poison, but which I had two living testaments was not universally deadly, then yes, I would do it. Because I said I would. That is what differentiates good, upstanding soldiers from traitors and deserters - the ability to follow your orders to the death.
If a US General in wartime asked me to drink poison on the threat of court martial for treason and desertion, I would absolutely do it. You know why? Because the maximum penalty for desertion in wartime is DEATH.
I'll take my chances with the poison.
No, I wouldn't. I'm regularly asked to risk MY life on nothing more than because the equipment is substandard and no one else is around to take the risk. I do it anyway.
If I had been asked to drink something I knew was poison, but which I had two living testaments was not universally deadly, then yes, I would do it. Because I said I would. That is what differentiates good, upstanding soldiers from traitors and deserters - the ability to follow your orders to the death.
If a US General in wartime asked me to drink poison on the threat of court martial for treason and desertion, I would absolutely do it. You know why? Because the maximum penalty for desertion in wartime is DEATH.
I'll take my chances with the poison.
#34
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:40
Arvig
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My take on Ser Jory. Please consider the following: 1) I haven't read every reply, so my reply will reflect that. 2) I also am making a lot of guesses and assumptions when it comes to his background.
My assumption with him is that he is the youngest (or at least not first son) of a noble or another Knight/"Ser". Why I say that is how he mentions wanting glory, my guess/assumption is he's a young knight trying to prove something to someone, to impress someone, thus his need for glory. What's a group that has a lot of glory? In his mind at least, the Gray Wardens. Thus, he joins them.
Duncan is desperate for volunteers, so accepts him. I also think Duncan is TOO pragmatic, he's not willing to say "Hey..Sir Jory, you seem like a fine warrior but despite the very small numbers of the Wardens I think it best you stay a household knight and not join us, you'll get your glory there". No, he's willing to let Jory go all the way to the joining, on the off chance he survives. One thing the joining is IMO is a test of courage, do you have the guts to take a sip of very tainted blood? Are you willing to become a tiny bit like the enemy, physically and maybe even emotionally so you can fight the enemy?
Now was Jory a coward? No, but he wasn't a valorous as Daveth, whom would have probably been a decent warden if he had survived. I do think Jory lacked common sense too, he only thought "Gray Warden = prestige and glory for my family" and not "Gray Warden = I spend a large amount of time away from family, possibly never see them again, etc.".
So to sum up, Jory was clueless, of normal bravery but not valorous and joined a unit he shouldn't have joined. Duncan should have told him he just wasn't Gray Warden material, but instead let him go through it all until he washed out..unfortuntly washing out for a Gray Warden means dying.
My assumption with him is that he is the youngest (or at least not first son) of a noble or another Knight/"Ser". Why I say that is how he mentions wanting glory, my guess/assumption is he's a young knight trying to prove something to someone, to impress someone, thus his need for glory. What's a group that has a lot of glory? In his mind at least, the Gray Wardens. Thus, he joins them.
Duncan is desperate for volunteers, so accepts him. I also think Duncan is TOO pragmatic, he's not willing to say "Hey..Sir Jory, you seem like a fine warrior but despite the very small numbers of the Wardens I think it best you stay a household knight and not join us, you'll get your glory there". No, he's willing to let Jory go all the way to the joining, on the off chance he survives. One thing the joining is IMO is a test of courage, do you have the guts to take a sip of very tainted blood? Are you willing to become a tiny bit like the enemy, physically and maybe even emotionally so you can fight the enemy?
Now was Jory a coward? No, but he wasn't a valorous as Daveth, whom would have probably been a decent warden if he had survived. I do think Jory lacked common sense too, he only thought "Gray Warden = prestige and glory for my family" and not "Gray Warden = I spend a large amount of time away from family, possibly never see them again, etc.".
So to sum up, Jory was clueless, of normal bravery but not valorous and joined a unit he shouldn't have joined. Duncan should have told him he just wasn't Gray Warden material, but instead let him go through it all until he washed out..unfortuntly washing out for a Gray Warden means dying.
#35
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:40
PinkShira
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If I remember correctly, Jory said there was a competition for the honor of joining the Grey Wardens... and he won. That's why Duncan recruited him. He would have been in impolite to say no and that's not something he would have done. Now why Jory entered the competition with a pregnant wife at home is my problem. He had to have known the joining the Grey Wardens was taking him far from home into battles against the Darkspawn which could probably kill him. So besides being a coward to me... I think he is also an idiot. His wife and child are better without him. Now she can go marry a real man!
#36
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:44
Roxlimn
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corebit:
That probably explains why he acting like a pansy civilian, then.
Ferelden knights are not strangers to warfare - why they just recently drove off the Orlesians! That probably entailed a great deal of death right there, which is probably why Loghain feels the way he does about them. He probably lost many friends to the Orlesians.
If Ser Jory went to the Joining expecting a light skirmish and a glorious, cushy, position, then all the more deserving he was of death - just not a death as good as he got. I can imagine fighting monstrous guys employing things like improvised explosive devices, possibly chemical and biological weapons. It's not pretty, but it's also not a valid reason to desert, which is what Jory essentially did.
In every Army you joined in the Middle Ages, desertion was paid with death. No exceptions. Jory got what was coming to him.
That probably explains why he acting like a pansy civilian, then.
Ferelden knights are not strangers to warfare - why they just recently drove off the Orlesians! That probably entailed a great deal of death right there, which is probably why Loghain feels the way he does about them. He probably lost many friends to the Orlesians.
If Ser Jory went to the Joining expecting a light skirmish and a glorious, cushy, position, then all the more deserving he was of death - just not a death as good as he got. I can imagine fighting monstrous guys employing things like improvised explosive devices, possibly chemical and biological weapons. It's not pretty, but it's also not a valid reason to desert, which is what Jory essentially did.
In every Army you joined in the Middle Ages, desertion was paid with death. No exceptions. Jory got what was coming to him.
#37
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:52
Beerfish
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Ser Jory did not have enough information to make an informed decision regarding the Grey Wardens. His point is a good one, he was a good fighter who had proven himself. The Grey Wardens have taken to hiding the truth at best and lieing at worst to get recruits.
The Question has to be asked, how many perfectly good warriors over the centruies have died in the Grey Warden ritual? And how valuable are the Grey Wardens.
We know that you need them to officially 'end' the blight but as far as I can tell any of my non Grey Warden compaions are just as good if not better fighters than my own character.
Nope, I don't think Ser Jory was a coward at all. He just watched Daveth die a horrible grisly death. He had a wife with a kid on the way and he thought, 'Why the hell should I drink a potentially deadly draught, just on the 50/50 chance might become a Grey Warden.
At that early point in the game as a player I was not the least bit unhappy to see Duncan meet his maker.
The Question has to be asked, how many perfectly good warriors over the centruies have died in the Grey Warden ritual? And how valuable are the Grey Wardens.
We know that you need them to officially 'end' the blight but as far as I can tell any of my non Grey Warden compaions are just as good if not better fighters than my own character.
Nope, I don't think Ser Jory was a coward at all. He just watched Daveth die a horrible grisly death. He had a wife with a kid on the way and he thought, 'Why the hell should I drink a potentially deadly draught, just on the 50/50 chance might become a Grey Warden.
At that early point in the game as a player I was not the least bit unhappy to see Duncan meet his maker.
#38
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:55
Beerfish
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Roxlimn wrote...
corebit:
Don't be so quick to judge people you don't know. Some people actually do put their lives on the line every day serving, and that's for real. Some of them die and never come back. They take that chance every day, even while watching comrades dying horrible deaths beside them.
Do they ask them to drink a potentially deadly potion before end even before they hit the battle field? That is the crux of the matter. Jory was an accomplished warrior who did show his worth in the Kocari wilds.
Ser Jory showed no courage. He was enticed by pride - the glory of serving with the Grey Wardens was what drew him. No courage there. No soldier has a chance to really know what kind of enemy they're facing. In Ferelden facing the Darkspawn, you could be facing down ANYTHING out there. Traditional "serve the country" duties in brutal, medieval warfare doesn't normally end with you going back to your family - in many cases, it ends with a painful lingering death on a bed while your leg festers and rots from an incurable Darkspawn wound.
He was asked to take a reasonable chance at life with glory he sought, and he chickened out after saying that he wouldn't. He doesn't deserve the death he got. Duncan should've fed him alive to the Darkspawn.
Reasonable? We have very different defintions of reasonable, Reasonable might be you are going to fight the darkspawn and perhaps not come home. Unreasonable is here drink this potion, you have a 50/50 chacne on whether you will die on the spot.
#39
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:56
nuculerman
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PinkShira wrote...
If I remember correctly, Jory said there was a competition for the honor of joining the Grey Wardens... and he won. That's why Duncan recruited him. He would have been in impolite to say no and that's not something he would have done. Now why Jory entered the competition with a pregnant wife at home is my problem. He had to have known the joining the Grey Wardens was taking him far from home into battles against the Darkspawn which could probably kill him. So besides being a coward to me... I think he is also an idiot. His wife and child are better without him. Now she can go marry a real man!
Not really. People seem to have not paid attention to the Cailan cut scenes. Cailan doesn't think it's a real blight. Cailan thinks they'll win easily. Cailan was a well-loved king who spent most of his time with his men in the tents. Soldiers in the army loved him, they respected him, and they probably all hero-worshiped him. Jory would have been no different. He had no idea what he was signing up for, and Duncan didn't do anything to illuminate him.
As to the "soldier" who keeps responding:
When you join an army in wartime you're entering a voluntary contract in which you know the bounds of said contract. You know, when you sign up, that if you desert, you could be executed. The fact is that Jory did not enter any contract of that nature. He was told there would be "no turning back," but was not told what he might have to turn back from. Watching Daveth die changed Jory's outlook on the situation he found himself in. Instantly his position changed from "you might die gloriously in battle and bring honor to your family," to "you're going to die this instant drinking this poison we just made you collect." Any reasonable person would have had objections at that point. Sure, most reasonable people wouldn't have let themselves get that far entrenched in that situation, but let's call Jory for what he is: a moron. A coward? Not particularly.
#40
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:56
corebit
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Roxlimn wrote...
corebit:
Don't be so quick to judge people you don't know. Some people actually do put their lives on the line every day serving, and that's for real. Some of them die and never come back. They take that chance every day, even while watching comrades dying horrible deaths beside them.
I'm not judging anyone. If you have served in real life war or have friends or family who have served, you would know that the feeling Jory has is entirely understandable. Everyone who has experienced combat has felt that, nevermind that the setting Jory is in is even more dire.
Ser Jory showed no courage. He was enticed by pride - the glory of serving with the Grey Wardens was what drew him. No courage there. No soldier has a chance to really know what kind of enemy they're facing. In Ferelden facing the Darkspawn, you could be facing down ANYTHING out there. Traditional "serve the country" duties in brutal, medieval warfare doesn't normally end with you going back to your family - in many cases, it ends with a painful lingering death on a bed while your leg festers and rots from an incurable Darkspawn wound.
Again, what part of the Jory dialog gives you the idea that he's doing it for the "glory"? I have done two playthroughs already, and never have I felt that. Besides he has already said that he is not afraid of facing other humans, or wild animals and beasts. Like he said, he doesn't have a problem facing familiar enemies. But the darkspawn look like something come out of a horrible nightmare, and no one save the Grey Wardens or the dwarves from Orzammar were prepared for that. Remember the last Blight occured centuries ago. The darkspawn until now have become legends and stories to "scare little children when they misbehave"
#41
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:58
Beerfish
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Roxlimn wrote...
corebit:
That probably explains why he acting like a pansy civilian, then.
Ferelden knights are not strangers to warfare - why they just recently drove off the Orlesians! That probably entailed a great deal of death right there, which is probably why Loghain feels the way he does about them. He probably lost many friends to the Orlesians.
If Ser Jory went to the Joining expecting a light skirmish and a glorious, cushy, position, then all the more deserving he was of death - just not a death as good as he got. I can imagine fighting monstrous guys employing things like improvised explosive devices, possibly chemical and biological weapons. It's not pretty, but it's also not a valid reason to desert, which is what Jory essentially did.
You certainly know alot about exatly what he was thinking. He was a knight and by accounts was the best one from his area. He had fought battles, he fought with you on the Kocari wilds. The big difference is not in dieing in battle. It is in him being expected to die a totally meaningless dath by drinking a deadly draught hence his 'There is no valour/glory in this.
In every Army you joined in the Middle Ages, desertion was paid with death. No exceptions. Jory got what was coming to him.
#42
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 05:59
marshalleck
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I have read all of Cailan's dialogue extensively, gone through all the options with all the origins.
Jory is still both a moron and a coward, in my opinion. The writers could have done a much better job with him, since he comes across as little more than a plot device, and a crudely implemented one at that, rife with contradictions. He exists to give the player no recourse to becoming an Grey Warden--you drink and possibly die, or refuse and Duncan guts you like a fish. It just pushes the plot forward.
Jory is still both a moron and a coward, in my opinion. The writers could have done a much better job with him, since he comes across as little more than a plot device, and a crudely implemented one at that, rife with contradictions. He exists to give the player no recourse to becoming an Grey Warden--you drink and possibly die, or refuse and Duncan guts you like a fish. It just pushes the plot forward.
Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:02 .
#43
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 06:00
marshalleck
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corebit wrote...
Again, what part of the Jory dialog gives you the idea that he's doing it for the "glory"?
"No! There is no glory in this..."
#44
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 06:00
Roxlimn
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Being a soldier is not about making informed consent. Do soldiers get to sign disclaimer forms every time they get sent to a suicidal mission? No.
Frankly, I trusted him even less when he mentions being a "good fighter" who's "proven himself." Good fighters don't need to mention their qualifications in conversation - they speak for themselves. He was ordered into a situation in which there was a good, but not certain, chance of death. As a soldier, he would have been given many, many, many such orders on a daily basis, especially in active combat duty, without explanation as to the reason for the order, or the exact risks.
How important are the Grey Wardens? Well, without them, humanity would be dead. Elvendom as well. They are the only thing that stands between the world at large and the Archdemons. They are kind of a big deal.
Dying in this manner should be and is an honor. Ser Jory deserted at a time when his services were needed the most. Having a wife and kid doesn't excuse him. Not knowing the specifics beforehand doesn't excuse him. He had his orders and willingly refused them, even willing to raise his arms against a senior officer to do so.
He had his chance and he blew it. He's both an idiot and a coward.
Frankly, I trusted him even less when he mentions being a "good fighter" who's "proven himself." Good fighters don't need to mention their qualifications in conversation - they speak for themselves. He was ordered into a situation in which there was a good, but not certain, chance of death. As a soldier, he would have been given many, many, many such orders on a daily basis, especially in active combat duty, without explanation as to the reason for the order, or the exact risks.
How important are the Grey Wardens? Well, without them, humanity would be dead. Elvendom as well. They are the only thing that stands between the world at large and the Archdemons. They are kind of a big deal.
Dying in this manner should be and is an honor. Ser Jory deserted at a time when his services were needed the most. Having a wife and kid doesn't excuse him. Not knowing the specifics beforehand doesn't excuse him. He had his orders and willingly refused them, even willing to raise his arms against a senior officer to do so.
He had his chance and he blew it. He's both an idiot and a coward.
#45
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 06:00
Rainen89
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He wasn't so much a coward just an idiot, he joined the Wardens seeking glory and failed to realize that the darkspawn do intend to fight back. Someone on this forum said it best, "Pull a gun on a cop, we'll see what happens" Duncan had every right to draw his sword and kill him, hell Jory even strikes first. The man was an idiot.
#46
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 06:04
Roxlimn
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Beerfish:
All the worse. If all Ferelden Knights are like Jory, then Ferelden should be doomed - from nearly any credible military force.
But we know they're not. None of the Knights under Ser Perth deserted in the face of Undead. They stood ground and did their duties, even when they were falling like flies. They did not express an unwillingness to continue as Jory did. They did not desert.
Jory was only interested in glory. Dying for the sake of Ferelden and his own wife means nothing to him.
All the worse. If all Ferelden Knights are like Jory, then Ferelden should be doomed - from nearly any credible military force.
But we know they're not. None of the Knights under Ser Perth deserted in the face of Undead. They stood ground and did their duties, even when they were falling like flies. They did not express an unwillingness to continue as Jory did. They did not desert.
Jory was only interested in glory. Dying for the sake of Ferelden and his own wife means nothing to him.
#47
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 06:06
Beerfish
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Roxlimn wrote...
Being a soldier is not about making informed consent. Do soldiers get to sign disclaimer forms every time they get sent to a suicidal mission? No.
Frankly, I trusted him even less when he mentions being a "good fighter" who's "proven himself." Good fighters don't need to mention their qualifications in conversation - they speak for themselves. He was ordered into a situation in which there was a good, but not certain, chance of death. As a soldier, he would have been given many, many, many such orders on a daily basis, especially in active combat duty, without explanation as to the reason for the order, or the exact risks.
There is the key statment, in combat duty. Let me ask you this, if we took every prospect to go into a special forces unit from the regualr army and said, you can go into the special forces unti but you have to drink a potion that has a 50/50 chance of killing you, what do you think the reaction would be?
How important are the Grey Wardens? Well, without them, humanity would be dead. Elvendom as well. They are the only thing that stands between the world at large and the Archdemons. They are kind of a big deal.
Dying in this manner should be and is an honor. Ser Jory deserted at a time when his services were needed the most. Having a wife and kid doesn't excuse him. Not knowing the specifics beforehand doesn't excuse him. He had his orders and willingly refused them, even willing to raise his arms against a senior officer to do so.
Sheer and utter nonsense. The only honor the dead guys get from the failed joinings get is a bit of blood in some amulet. Ser Jory was not yet a grey warden, he was a prosective grey warden. He had not been told at all about the true risks of the endeavor. When he objected after seeing Daveth die a horrible death not in battle he was murdered by Duncan.
He had his chance and he blew it. He's both an idiot and a coward.
#48
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 06:07
corebit
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Roxlimn wrote...
corebit:
That probably explains why he acting like a pansy civilian, then.
Ferelden knights are not strangers to warfare - why they just recently drove off the Orlesians! That probably entailed a great deal of death right there, which is probably why Loghain feels the way he does about them. He probably lost many friends to the Orlesians.
If Ser Jory went to the Joining expecting a light skirmish and a glorious, cushy, position, then all the more deserving he was of death - just not a death as good as he got. I can imagine fighting monstrous guys employing things like improvised explosive devices, possibly chemical and biological weapons. It's not pretty, but it's also not a valid reason to desert, which is what Jory essentially did.
In every Army you joined in the Middle Ages, desertion was paid with death. No exceptions. Jory got what was coming to him.
*sigh*. I don't think Jory was deserting. He couldn't understand (and reasonably so) why drinking darkspawn blood and hoping it doesn't kill you was necessary at all when they were already recruited.
#49
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 06:07
KalosCast
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All six origin stories + Daveth either don't have the option to go back home, don't have a home to return to, or would be giving themselves a death sentence by absconding (Dalish, Mage). Ser Jory had a new family on the way and clearly didn't revel in the glory of battle. He was probably just a lesser noble or honorable peasant who was wooed by the tales of the Wardens. His actions, if not particularly bright, were pretty believable for a man who was attached to his family, just watched the joining kill someone, and just had the whole situation recently sprung on him.
I wouldn't really call Jory a coward, and one could easily argue that Duncan is responsible for his death by picking a candidate who was so blindingly obviously not right for the order. Even his "secondary" choices, like the knight in the Human Noble origin were clearly far more capable than Jory. Had he been part of and alongside the other knights where he belonged, I believe he would have fought honorably.
I wouldn't really call Jory a coward, and one could easily argue that Duncan is responsible for his death by picking a candidate who was so blindingly obviously not right for the order. Even his "secondary" choices, like the knight in the Human Noble origin were clearly far more capable than Jory. Had he been part of and alongside the other knights where he belonged, I believe he would have fought honorably.
#50
Posté 06 décembre 2009 - 06:10
Beerfish
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Roxlimn wrote...
Beerfish:
All the worse. If all Ferelden Knights are like Jory, then Ferelden should be doomed - from nearly any credible military force.
But we know they're not. None of the Knights under Ser Perth deserted in the face of Undead. They stood ground and did their duties, even when they were falling like flies. They did not express an unwillingness to continue as Jory did. They did not desert.
You are comparing 100% totally different things. Jory was not objecting to potentially dieing in battle he was objecting to dieing by drinking darkspawn blood. Was Jory a true hero type? Probably not but take all of Ser Perths men. Line them up and say 'hey you guys are drinking this stuff and it may kill you on the spot. Are you still up for it? I'm sure most would say. No thanks. I'll stay as a fighter or a knight and do my best, lay my life down in battle it I must but I'm not going to drink some poison before hand.
Jory was only interested in glory. Dying for the sake of Ferelden and his own wife means nothing to him.
