290 réponses à ce sujet

[Roxlimn]

Beerfish:

There is the key statment, in combat duty. Let me ask you this, if we took every prospect to go into a special forces unit from the regualr army and said, you can go into the special forces unti but you have to drink a potion that has a 50/50 chance of killing you, what do you think the reaction would be?

They'd all **** about it - the surviving ones, anyway. Everyone would drink.

Sheer and utter nonsense. The only honor the dead guys get from the failed joinings get is a bit of blood in some amulet. Ser Jory was not yet a grey warden, he was a prosective grey warden. He had not been told at all about the true risks of the endeavor. When he objected after seeing Daveth die a horrible death not in battle he was murdered by Duncan.

They have a post-Joining ritual honoring all who had fallen before. That ritual is a BIG DEAL. I imagine they have a roster of all possible Grey Wardens, surviving and otherwise.

You are comparing 100% totally different things.  Jory was not objecting to potentially dieing in battle he was objecting to dieing by drinking darkspawn blood.  Was Jory a true hero type?  Probably not but take all of Ser Perths men.  Line them up and say 'hey you guys are drinking this stuff and it may kill you on the spot.  Are you still up for it?  I'm sure most would say.  No thanks.  I'll stay as a fighter or a knight and do my best, lay my life down in battle it I must but I'm not going to drink some poison before hand.

The Joining is secret and you cannot back down from it - that much was made clear.  If any of those Knights had said "yes," to the ritual, yes I would expect all of them to go through with it.

Tell me this: have YOU witnessed anybody die from weapons trauma?  You think it's better than Daveth's death?  It's not.  It's worse.  If you're willing to die in combat after seeing your friends die horrific deaths from ungodly wounds, dying a quick death from a little poison shouldn't faze you.

corebit:

*sigh*. I don't think Jory was deserting. He couldn't understand (and reasonably so) why drinking darkspawn blood and hoping it doesn't kill you was necessary at all when they were already recruited.

You're not supposed to understand. You're supposed to follow orders. Jory refused a direct order and moreover, pulled a weapon on a superior officer. In any medieval army, that is penalized with death.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:16 .

[HarlequinDream]

Jory didn't disappoint me in not wanting to go through with the Joining.

I was disappointed when he seemed to want to go back when in the Wilds, after meeting the injured soldier.


ETA: Add to that his pulling of a weapon on Duncan. I knew what I saw that that things could NOT end well for him.

Modifié par HarlequinDream, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:14 .

[marshalleck]

Beerfish, you're ignoring the fact that Duncan can't just go telling everyone that Grey Wardens drink darkspawn blood and  be destined to die in battle with darkspawn either sooner or later, and never face a natural end.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:18 .

[corebit]

This is classic example of meta-gaming. You try to use outside knowledge to say who and who is a coward, because you already know what will happen to humanity if the darkspawn wins. To the common soldier or knight who has encountered darkspawn for the first time, they don't know what to expect.

As the king said, they won several battles against darkspawn groups so many of them were optimistic.

You're not supposed to understand. You're supposed to follow orders.
Jory refused a direct order and moreover, pulled a weapon on a superior
officer. In any medieval army, that is penalized with death.

Except the Grey Wardens are not that. They follow no King and no general.

Modifié par corebit, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[marshalleck]

corebit wrote...

This is classic example of meta-gaming. You try to use outside knowledge to say who and who is a coward, because you already know what will happen to humanity if the darkspawn wins. To the common soldier or knight who has encountered darkspawn for the first time, they don't know what to expect.

As the king said, they won several battles against darkspawn groups so many of them were optimistic.

It's not meta-game knowledge. Jory pusses out within 5 minutes of setting foot in the Wilds.

[Roxlimn]

corebit:



Doesn't change a thing. He was given an order, after willingly volunteering for a ritual that you can't opt out of afterwards. He made the choice, he made the pledge. He was a soldier.



What he did was unreasonable and unconscionable.

[KalosCast]

corebit wrote...

This is classic example of meta-gaming. You try to use outside knowledge to say who and who is a coward, because you already know what will happen to humanity if the darkspawn wins. To the common soldier or knight who has encountered darkspawn for the first time, they don't know what to expect.

As the king said, they won several battles against darkspawn groups so many of them were optimistic.

^This.

Jory has absolutely no evidence that Duncan hasn't merely gone insane (especially with that tone of voice in his "no backing out" line) and started poisoning all the Grey Wardens, or set them up for some ritual sacrifice

[Maria Caliban]

Jory exists so the player can feel their PC is awesome.

[marshalleck]

KalosCast wrote...

corebit wrote...

This is classic example of meta-gaming. You try to use outside knowledge to say who and who is a coward, because you already know what will happen to humanity if the darkspawn wins. To the common soldier or knight who has encountered darkspawn for the first time, they don't know what to expect.

As the king said, they won several battles against darkspawn groups so many of them were optimistic.

^This.

Jory has absolutely no evidence that Duncan hasn't merely gone insane (especially with that tone of voice in his "no backing out" line) and started poisoning all the Grey Wardens, or set them up for some ritual sacrifice

So Jory wimping out and wanting to leave the Wilds never happened?

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

It's not meta-game knowledge. Jory pusses out within 5 minutes of setting foot in the Wilds.

Yeah, when he saw a large group of soldiers who got wiped out except for one bloodied man who explained that they did it with a rather effortless ambush, and the only people who had his back were a newbie grey warden, a failed thief, and Duncan's new kid.

[marshalleck]

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It's not meta-game knowledge. Jory pusses out within 5 minutes of setting foot in the Wilds.

Yeah, when he saw a large group of soldiers who got wiped out except for one bloodied man who explained that they did it with a rather effortless ambush, and the only people who had his back were a newbie grey warden, a failed thief, and Duncan's new kid.

Exactly. Jory's a coward and this isn't based on meta-game knowledge. Thank you.

The only defense for Jory is that the writers handled him very poorly. There are a great many inconsistencies surrounding this character.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:24 .

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



Still doesn't matter. If you are a soldier, you follow orders, you do not question the sanity of your commanding officer. As a soldier, you will, many times, be given orders that appear insane and unreasonable. That is because you are not briefed on every little detail of army movement and wartime development. You don't question it - you just do it.



We are not talking about some walk in the park thing, here, folks. We are talking about armies, soldiers, life and death, and treason. If you don't know what those things are, you don't know what's happening there.

[corebit]

marshalleck wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It's not meta-game knowledge. Jory pusses out within 5 minutes of setting foot in the Wilds.

Yeah, when he saw a large group of soldiers who got wiped out except for one bloodied man who explained that they did it with a rather effortless ambush, and the only people who had his back were a newbie grey warden, a failed thief, and Duncan's new kid.

Exactly. Jory's a coward and this isn't based on meta-game knowledge. Thank you.

The only defense for Jory is that the writers handled him very poorly. There are a great many inconsistencies surrounding this character.

Seeing an entire unit of soldiers wiped out, you wouldn't feel the same? Jory said it very well, what can four guys do what an entire unit could not? It was very hopeless from his viewpoint.

[Maria Caliban]

marshalleck wrote...

The only defense for Jory is that the writers handled him very poorly. There are a great many inconsistencies surrounding this character.

No, they didn't. He's a putz. He's cowardly and backs out at the last minute.

This is like saying that Jowan is poorly written because he always manages to get into trouble.

[corebit]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

Still doesn't matter. If you are a soldier, you follow orders, you do not question the sanity of your commanding officer. As a soldier, you will, many times, be given orders that appear insane and unreasonable. That is because you are not briefed on every little detail of army movement and wartime development. You don't question it - you just do it.

We are not talking about some walk in the park thing, here, folks. We are talking about armies, soldiers, life and death, and treason. If you don't know what those things are, you don't know what's happening there.

Again you keep comparing it to your standard army when the Wardens clearly are not. They follow no King and no general.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

Still doesn't matter. If you are a soldier, you follow orders, you do not question the sanity of your commanding officer. As a soldier, you will, many times, be given orders that appear insane and unreasonable. That is because you are not briefed on every little detail of army movement and wartime development. You don't question it - you just do it.

We are not talking about some walk in the park thing, here, folks. We are talking about armies, soldiers, life and death, and treason. If you don't know what those things are, you don't know what's happening there.

Irrelevant, no soldier would be required to follow the orders of a superior officer who told them to commit ritual suicide. Duncan made two terrible judgment calls in not telling them the point of The Joining and recruiting Jory into the order in the first place, despite him not fitting the bill in any way compared to all other potential candidates we had seen.

[DariusKalera]

Roxlimn wrote...

Koyasha:

We KNOW how he reacts to seeing death on the battlefied from a darkspawn ambush: badly. How much worse would he be if he knew he was going into a suicidal charge against a Dragon with unwinnable odds? Because you know, soldiers are occasionally asked to do that in war.

On a field of battle in the frontlines with darkspawn charging at him, I totally expect him to desert at first opportunity. The man has no backbone.

Soldiery is not about being reasonable. It's about doing what you're ordered to do no matter what. More than physical training, that is what Boot Camp is all about - to turn you into soldiers willing to walk off a cliff if your commanding officer tells you to do it.

Jory is supposed to be a hardened soldier. He's supposed to be used to seeing his comrades fall all around him while he's left alone to withstand whatever is killing everyone. Seeing Daveth die would be an issue - for a civilian. For a soldier? Of course not. Jory had a chance to live - that's all any soldier can ask for.

No soldier is told why his suicidal charge is important. If commanders had to explain every little strategic detail to every soldier, nothing would ever get done. Jory was being a bad soldier, pure and simple - he was a coward and a deserter. If he fled like that on the field of battle, he would get no better, and even worse.

With his weakness at the Joining, his name will be remembered with honor. As a deserter, his name and the name of his family and children will be blackened for generations. He's unreliable and unprofessional and commanded by fear. I cannot trust him as a traveling companion nor as a Grey Warden, even if he had lived through it. It was all for the better that he died when he did.

1:  The ambush they found was, from what we can tell, behind friendly lines.  You don't send a supply caravan through an enemy held area.  His reaction of "Lets go back and tell someone" is perfectly justified under that situation since, apperently, no one knew that the ambush had occured.  Did the Warden's know there were Darkspawn in the area?  Obviously, but it is doubtful if they actually knew the numbers.  Once Alistair said out loud that he could generally tell that there weren't many in the area, Jory calmed down. 

2:  Sorry, I read this and I could not help but laugh.  Soldiery is not "just": about doing what you are told no matter what.  It's also about being intelligent and using your head and your own personal judgements.  It's why there are regulations about following an order that a person might feel is criminal.   When I trained my soldiers, and yes, I've trained quite a few, I would train them to use their brains.  A soldier that does not use their intelligence is a liability on the battlefield. 

3:  Yeah, try that in real life.  Go to any military unit and have them line up.  Have one of them drink something that mak'es the drinker die horribly right before them and then say "Next!".  See how many step foreward. 

4:  While no soldier is given every strategic detail, they are informed on the nature of thier mission and what will be their tactical objectives in accomplishing said mission.  Information will be filtered down through the command levels till it reaches the soldier and he/she finds out how it all effects them directly.   Suicidal charges are done, usually, for one of two reasons.   1:  They have a fanatical devotion to something and dying in a charge is better than surrendering.   2:  The people in command do not know any better and order they order charge becuase they know that they  will not be the ones having to do the actual charge and getting killed.

5:  Jory acted rationally, as any person would have in that situation.  Anyone in thier right mind would have taken a step back after seeing what happened to Daveth.  Yes, he was a bad choice because he had a wife and child on the way. 

Think of Cougar in Top Gun.  Did he freeze up when the MiG had him locked on?  Yes, he did.  All he could think about was his wife and baby girl.  He resigned because of it.  Did his fellow pilots think badly of him?  Nope, because they understood what he was going through and it had nothing to do with cowardice. 

 

[Krigwin]

corebit wrote...
Except the Grey Wardens are not that. They follow no King and no general.

Doesn't change the fact that Jory enlisted, either of his own volition or because he was conscripted. Either way there is no backing out now, and he cannot disobey the command of Duncan who for all intents and purposes, is his commanding officer.

What he did was dereliction of duty at best, and desertion at worse. Both are crimes worthy of death, the only distinction is that in this case, there is no court and the judgement was immediate, because Duncan holds all the authority.

Plus he pulled his weapon on Duncan. That was just stupid.

[marshalleck]

Maria Caliban wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The only defense for Jory is that the writers handled him very poorly. There are a great many inconsistencies surrounding this character.

No, they didn't. He's a putz. He's cowardly and backs out at the last minute.

This is like saying that Jowan is poorly written because he always manages to get into trouble.

No, it's not the same at all. Jory is supposedly an experienced Knight who somehow won Duncan's favor in some sort of competition--and yet he balks at the first sign of trouble in the Wilds. He goes from paranoia and fear in one cutscene, to "let's have this ritual over with, what are we waiting for?" the next. He's a clumsy plot device. They could have at least done him the favor of changing his Wilds conversation from "I'm scared, let's leave!" to "this sounds incredibly dangerous, we must proceed with caution" or some such.

The impression of Jory the player is left with is wondering if he has lied about everything, having never actually picked up a sword in his life prior to coming to Ostagar.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:36 .

[Roxlimn]

corebit:



Again, not the point. In war, he could have been asked to do that exact same thing. In fact, YOUR character makes a habit of going up to battles with overwhelming odds against him/her. You don't win those kinds of battles if you make a habit of pussing out at every suggestion that they could be around the corner.



Soldiers are asked to do hopeless things all the time. Heck, the mortality (not casualty - mortality) rate for the first wave of ordinary soldiers at the beaches of Normandy was over 98% - that meant that nearly none of them survived. The commanders knew it was going to be a slaughter. The lieutenants knew. They ALL knew.



Jory here is asking to be part of the vanguard - the shock troops - the elite Grey Wardens. Even if he'd survived the Joining, he would be asked to do all manner of suicidal things. That's what being a Grey Warden IS. Even today, Marines take pride in knowing that they get the worse possible assignments in terms of survival odds. That's sort of their thing, you know?



When you join an elite unit of shock troopers in wartime, your chance of death is already very, very, very high; especially compared with that of the rank-and-file. If he wanted a cushy job, he should have stayed at home and planted potatoes.

[Mnemnosyne]

Roxlimn wrote...

How important are the Grey Wardens? Well, without them, humanity would be dead. Elvendom as well. They are the only thing that stands between the world at large and the Archdemons. They are kind of a big deal.

Not from Jory's perspective, because it has been four centuries since the last time there was a Blight.  Imagine if you will, that a military force from the year 1600 still existed in the world today, and that at that time they had saved the world from boogeymen.  Since then, you hear the occasional stories of boogeymen, but nobody you know, and nobody even second or third hand from you has ever seen a boogeyman.

Suddenly they return and say it is important for them to recruit more into their order because the boogeymen are going to destroy the world if they don't stop them.  They're renowned as great warriors and they saved the world from boogeymen four hundred years ago.  That's pretty much all anyone knows about them.  Indeed, they have taken great pains to keep a secret exactly why they are actually needed in order to save the world from boogeymen.  As far as anyone knows, they were just really good at fighting back then, and they were the only ones good enough to defeat the boogeymen.  Nobody else had enough skill or soldiers or something - maybe nobody else was willing to commit enough resources to fighting the boogeymen - only a historian would really know much beyond the general concept of them saving the world from boogeymen.  And there's a boogeyman attack going on.  Decent size army, but it doesn't look incredibly serious - certainly not a world-destroying threat, as far as current reports say.

You apply to join them, and suddenly they want you to drink poison?  Yeah, maybe that isn't exactly what you signed on for, maybe you think that the army you were already in can defeat the boogeymen just fine without these suicide-pact crazies.

The darkspawn, to the people of modern-day Ferelden, are boogeymen.  They know nothing about the last Blight other than that it happened a long time ago and the darkspawn were defeated.  They know the Grey Wardens defeated them, but they don't have any idea why the Grey Wardens were important or anything - all they know is the Grey Wardens were good warriors and defeated the darkspawn.  There's no reason, however, to think that you actually need them to defeat the darkspawn anymore, since they've gone to great pains to keep the reason why they are needed a secret.  Do you really think they seem like the only thing standing between the world and the darkspawn at this point?  Or does it seem that them being "necessary" to defeat the darkspawn might just be a bit of an exaggeration, and all you need is some sound military tactics and a good army.  Oh yeah, and so far, every engagement - without the Grey Wardens - has resulted in a resounding victory for your side.  Really, do they seem that necessary that you need to risk your life on a four hundred year old reputation?

[th3warr1or]

[quote]corebit wrote...

[quote]Zafezase wrote...

He sounds more human and realistic than most "heroic" NPCs out there. People who dismiss him as a coward really haven't put themselves in his shoes or are not married with kids in real life. Really, how many of you who do that in real life? Words are so much easier than actions. He is no stranger to killing, but fighting darkspawn really felt like a hopeless endeavor. And that was something that he was not prepared for.
[/quote]

Not in the slightest. He's a coward on all counts. MAYBE signing up took courage, or it could have taken ignorance and I'm going with the second.

Also, like I said, Daveth asked him if he would sacrifice himself if he knew it would save his wife, and he said no.

[corebit]

marshalleck wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The only defense for Jory is that the writers handled him very poorly. There are a great many inconsistencies surrounding this character.

No, they didn't. He's a putz. He's cowardly and backs out at the last minute.

This is like saying that Jowan is poorly written because he always manages to get into trouble.

No, it's not the same at all. Jory is supposedly an experienced Knight who somehow won Duncan's favor in some sort of competition--and yet he balks at the first sign of trouble in the Wilds. He goes from paranoia and fear in one cutscene, to "let's have this ritual over with, what are we waiting for?" the next. He's a clumsy plot device. They could have at least done him the favor of changing his Wilds conversation from "I'm scared, let's leave!" to "this sounds incredibly dangerous, we must proceed with caution" or some such.

The impression of Jory the player is left with is wondering if he has lied about everything, having never actually picked up a sword in his life prior to coming to Ostagar.

No he didn't say that. As for the "proceed with caution" line, he already answered that. He said the soldiers who were wiped out were already cautious. What can four guys do that an entire unit could not?

[marshalleck]

corebit wrote...

No he didn't say that. As for the "proceed with caution" line, he already answered that. He said the soldiers who were wiped out were already cautious. What can four guys do that an entire unit could not?

Hit and run surgical strike? 

[HarlequinDream]

One thing I just considered-- We know he's a knight, yes, and I'd wager he's about Cailin's age.



Do we know if he's ever seen battle? Or has he, perhaps, simply served an arl or teryn or the like and been in tournaments but never really fought? I don't remember if the dialogue addresses that. I know he fought in the tournament that was held for Duncan, but does he mention if he's ever seen battle?



Because if he hasn't, that would really explain a lot to me.