290 réponses à ce sujet

[KalosCast]

corebit wrote...
No he didn't say that. As for the "proceed with caution" line, he already answered that. He said the soldiers who were wiped out were already cautious. What can four guys do that an entire unit could not?

Yeah, if wanting to change the original course of action based on intel that you didn't have mere moments ago and would probably be of great importance to the garrison at Ostagar is cowardice, then every soldier is a filthy disgusting coward.

[Cyrilix2]

corebit wrote...
Ser Jory represents what most of us would react to when facing something completely alien and terrifying.

Most of us are not knights. Most of us would be like the dialogue-less civilians you encounter throughout the game.

[marshalleck]

KalosCast wrote...

corebit wrote...
No he didn't say that. As for the "proceed with caution" line, he already answered that. He said the soldiers who were wiped out were already cautious. What can four guys do that an entire unit could not?

Yeah, if wanting to change the original course of action based on intel that you didn't have mere moments ago and would probably be of great importance to the garrison at Ostagar is cowardice, then every soldier is a filthy disgusting coward.

Duncan probably already knew there were few Darkspawn in the area surrounding the old Warden tower, which is why he sent four recruits in the first place. If it were really that important or dangerous, he would have gone and secured the documents and the blood himself.

Jory's first impulse is to abandon the mission. You're really not making a case for him.

[corebit]

HarlequinDream wrote...

One thing I just considered-- We know he's a knight, yes, and I'd wager he's about Cailin's age.

Do we know if he's ever seen battle? Or has he, perhaps, simply served an arl or teryn or the like and been in tournaments but never really fought? I don't remember if the dialogue addresses that. I know he fought in the tournament that was held for Duncan, but does he mention if he's ever seen battle?

Because if he hasn't, that would really explain a lot to me.

That's unfair to him. None of the guys in that camp have seen real battle, not even the King, except Loghain, Duncan and maybe a few old veterans from the Orlais war, And that happened what? Fourty years ago?

Jory has as much courage as any common soldier and knight in there. But what was asked of him was a matter of (almost blind) faith at that moment, not courage. Duncan expected too much from him.

Modifié par corebit, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:52 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Probably nothing serious. From what we're led to understand of Ferelden politics, small fighting between Banns and such is common. He servs Arl Eamon though, so he may not even have been involved in that much fighting. But if he has, they probably weren't particularly serious fights, and likely the sort of fight where both sides allow their enemies to carry wounded off the field.

[marshalleck]

corebit wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

One thing I just considered-- We know he's a knight, yes, and I'd wager he's about Cailin's age.

Do we know if he's ever seen battle? Or has he, perhaps, simply served an arl or teryn or the like and been in tournaments but never really fought? I don't remember if the dialogue addresses that. I know he fought in the tournament that was held for Duncan, but does he mention if he's ever seen battle?

Because if he hasn't, that would really explain a lot to me.

That's unfair to him. None of the guys in that camp have seen real battle, not even the King, except Loghain, Duncan and maybe a few old veterans from the Orlais war, And that happened what? Fourty years ago?

Jory has as much courage as any common soldier and knight in there. But what was asked of him was a matter of (almost blind) faith at that moment, not courage. Duncan expected too much from him.

Duncan didn't expect too much. Duncan knows exactly what is needed to end the Blight. Duncan expects that any Warden will strike a deathblow on an Archdemon without hesitation, even though it means death for the Warden as well.

[Roxlimn]

 KalosCast:

Irrelevant, no soldier would be required to follow the orders of a superior officer who told them to commit ritual suicide. Duncan made two terrible judgment calls in not telling them the point of The Joining and recruiting Jory into the order in the first place, despite him not fitting the bill in any way compared to all other potential candidates we had seen.

Duncan isn't asking them to commit ritual suicide, since ALL surviving Grey Wardens went through it, and they all lived.  He's asking them to take a chance.  While it's arguably bad to have chosen Jory in the first place, choosing sure death over a chance of death was purely stupid on his part.

DariusKalera:

1:  The ambush they found was, from what we can tell, behind friendly lines.  You don't send a supply caravan through an enemy held area.  His reaction of "Lets go back and tell someone" is perfectly justified under that situation since, apperently, no one knew that the ambush had occured.  Did the Warden's know there were Darkspawn in the area?  Obviously, but it is doubtful if they actually knew the numbers.  Once Alistair said out loud that he could generally tell that there weren't many in the area, Jory calmed down.

It was not reasonable.  Alistair was in charge and he said to forge on, and they also sent a survivor back to report on the incident.  Since both are true, he had no reason to want to go back.

2:  Sorry, I read this and I could not help but laugh.  Soldiery is not "just": about doing what you are told no matter what.  It's also about being intelligent and using your head and your own personal judgements.  It's why there are regulations about following an order that a person might feel is criminal.   When I trained my soldiers, and yes, I've trained quite a few, I would train them to use their brains.  A soldier that does not use their intelligence is a liability on the battlefield.  

A soldier that does not follow orders is even more of a liability.  If you don't stress that during your training, then you're not doing it very well.

What Duncan asked was not criminal, and Jory was not refusing on the basis of international or Ferelden law.  He wasn't using his brains - he was just refusing an order.

3:  Yeah, try that in real life.  Go to any military unit and have them line up.  Have one of them drink something that mak'es the drinker die horribly right before them and then say "Next!".  See how many step foreward.

In fact, this has occurred already, just not in the same circumstances.  Many soldiers are given pills to drink without any detailed description of what those pills actually do.  In some cases, the side effects were fatal.  And yes, the soldier drank the pills.

If I lined up a unit of Marines for special volunteer duty and asked them to drink a pill that had the endorsement of the US Government and which I, myself, had drunk, then yes I would expect every single one of them to do it, especially under threat of court martial for treason.

4:  While no soldier is given every strategic detail, they are informed on the nature of thier mission and what will be their tactical objectives in accomplishing said mission.  Information will be filtered down through the command levels till it reaches the soldier and he/she finds out how it all effects them directly.   Suicidal charges are done, usually, for one of two reasons.   1:  They have a fanatical devotion to something and dying in a charge is better than surrendering.   2:  The people in command do not know any better and order they order charge becuase they know that they  will not be the ones having to do the actual charge and getting killed.

Suicidal charges were the norm for combat during the Civil War.  During that era of combat, one of the best accepted ways to overcome an entrenched position was to charge it with infantry under withering enemy fire.  In fact, they still did this when rifles were replaced by machine guns and the guns would almost certainly whittle down all and any infantry charge to nothing.

5:  Jory acted rationally, as any person would have in that situation.  Anyone in thier right mind would have taken a step back after seeing what happened to Daveth.  Yes, he was a bad choice because he had a wife and child on the way.

What?!?  He acted stupidly, is what he did.  Given a chance at life, he chose certain death!  How idiotic do you have to be to do that?

Think of Cougar in Top Gun.  Did he freeze up when the MiG had him locked on?  Yes, he did.  All he could think about was his wife and baby girl.  He resigned because of it.  Did his fellow pilots think badly of him?  Nope, because they understood what he was going through and it had nothing to do with cowardice.

Point 1: He resigned.  And for very good reasons.  He did not refuse orders.  He suffered a normal, psychological human reaction, which he acknowledged and then did the right thing.

Point 2: He did not draw a weapon on a superior officer.

Tell me this: if, in the course of your training, you asked a soldier to do a seemingly suicidal thing (but which wasn't, actually) and then he not only refused but trained a gun at you, and then fired (but missed), would he get court-martialed and possibly executed?  Yes, he would.

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

corebit wrote...
No he didn't say that. As for the "proceed with caution" line, he already answered that. He said the soldiers who were wiped out were already cautious. What can four guys do that an entire unit could not?

Yeah, if wanting to change the original course of action based on intel that you didn't have mere moments ago and would probably be of great importance to the garrison at Ostagar is cowardice, then every soldier is a filthy disgusting coward.

Duncan probably already knew there were few Darkspawn in the area surrounding the old Warden tower, which is why he sent four recruits in the first place. If it were really that important or dangerous, he would have gone and secured the documents and the blood himself.

Jory's first impulse is to abandon the mission. You're really not making a case for him.

Jory then calms down considerably when he knows that Alistair informs him of his (either fake or quickly lost) ability to sense the Darkspawn. Considering that it was a supply caravan that was attacked, it would probably behoove the garrison to know their supplies are likely in enemy hands and that the wilds were not as safe as they were believed to be when the four of you were initially sent out. As I mentioned earlier, it's not exactly the dream team being sent into the same area that an entire column of soldiers were just cut down effortlessly in.

[Maria Caliban]

marshalleck wrote...

No, it's not the same at all. Jory is supposedly an experienced Knight who somehow won Duncan's favor in some sort of competition--and yet he balks at the first sign of trouble in the Wilds.

That's right. He won a competition, and his lord probably spoke highly of him. This doesn't mean he's Grey Warden material. It's possible that the only battles he's faced were part of a large unit of knights against the various tribal and Dalish groups in Ferelden.

Duncan saved Deveth from the hangman's noose. I doubt Duncan extensively checked the man's resume and called around for references. Duncan heard a man was to be killed, learned that he was clever and capable, and decided to try him.

If you look at the various origins, it’s all Duncan has heard good things about you or meets you and decides you have the right stuff. Remember, there aren’t many Grey Wardens in Ferelden and Duncan knows a Blight is starting. His recruitment methods appear to be a series of gambles, and in Ser Jory’s case, that gamble didn’t come through.

[marshalleck]

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

corebit wrote...
No he didn't say that. As for the "proceed with caution" line, he already answered that. He said the soldiers who were wiped out were already cautious. What can four guys do that an entire unit could not?

Yeah, if wanting to change the original course of action based on intel that you didn't have mere moments ago and would probably be of great importance to the garrison at Ostagar is cowardice, then every soldier is a filthy disgusting coward.

Duncan probably already knew there were few Darkspawn in the area surrounding the old Warden tower, which is why he sent four recruits in the first place. If it were really that important or dangerous, he would have gone and secured the documents and the blood himself.

Jory's first impulse is to abandon the mission. You're really not making a case for him.

Jory then calms down considerably when he knows that Alistair informs him of his (either fake or quickly lost) ability to sense the Darkspawn. Considering that it was a supply caravan that was attacked, it would probably behoove the garrison to know their supplies are likely in enemy hands and that the wilds were not as safe as they were believed to be when the four of you were initially sent out. As I mentioned earlier, it's not exactly the dream team being sent into the same area that an entire column of soldiers were just cut down effortlessly in.

Their mission was not reconaissance, and anyway, the wounded soldier returned to inform the king's army of the status of their supplies. There was no reason to leave.

[Krigwin]

I think the problem is you're not really given that much information on Jory prior to him being taken in by Duncan. He says he has a wife and child, so I doubt he would have agreed to the kind of servitude for life deal being a Grey Warden is, so it follows that either he was not fully informed by Duncan, or he was forcibly Conscripted against his will.

[marshalleck]

Maria Caliban wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

No, it's not the same at all. Jory is supposedly an experienced Knight who somehow won Duncan's favor in some sort of competition--and yet he balks at the first sign of trouble in the Wilds.

That's right. He won a competition, and his lord probably spoke highly of him. This doesn't mean he's Grey Warden material. It's possible that the only battles he's faced were part of a large unit of knights against the various tribal and Dalish groups in Ferelden.

Duncan saved Deveth from the hangman's noose. I doubt Duncan extensively checked the man's resume and called around for references. Duncan heard a man was to be killed, learned that he was clever and capable, and decided to try him.

If you look at the various origins, it’s all Duncan has heard good things about you or meets you and decides you have the right stuff. Remember, there aren’t many Grey Wardens in Ferelden and Duncan knows a Blight is starting. His recruitment methods appear to be a series of gambles, and in Ser Jory’s case, that gamble didn’t come through.

...all of which has nothing to do with Jory waffling his way through the first hour or two of the game.

[Dermain]

Double post

Modifié par Myrkale, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:16 .

[HarlequinDream]

corebit wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

One thing I just considered-- We know he's a knight, yes, and I'd wager he's about Cailin's age.

Do we know if he's ever seen battle? Or has he, perhaps, simply served an arl or teryn or the like and been in tournaments but never really fought? I don't remember if the dialogue addresses that. I know he fought in the tournament that was held for Duncan, but does he mention if he's ever seen battle?

Because if he hasn't, that would really explain a lot to me.

That's unfair to him. None of the guys in that camp have seen real battle, not even the King, except Loghain, Duncan and maybe a few old veterans from the Orlais war, And that happened what? Fourty years ago?

Jory has as much courage as any common soldier and knight in there. But what was asked of him was a matter of (almost blind) faith at that moment, not courage. Duncan expected too much from him.

Actually, that's my point.

Jory's been involved in, really, a lot of playing at war. He's used to tournaments and (as another said) fights where the injured or dead are likely allowed to be carried off the field. Skirmishes for power among banns or dealing with criminals.

I'm sure he's sure of himself. He thinks he can take whatever's thrown at him, but then the cold reality sets in, and he shows another side. It's a gamble on Duncan's part-- every recruit is. He has no way of knowing who will actually survive. The only one I'd imagine he's pretty confident about would be the Dalish recruit, since they've recovered from the taint once. Yes, with magic helping them, but they're the only recruit who's even been exposed to darkspawn at all.

Some of Jory's actions rub me the wrong way, but I do think he's very human in the choices he makes.

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

Their mission was not reconaissance, and anyway, the wounded soldier returned to inform the king's army of the status of their supplies. There was no reason to leave.

Exactly, your mission is to actively engage Darkspawn, who were implied to be in significantly larger numbers than those on reconaissance would have reported.

[Krigwin]

HarlequinDream wrote...
The only one I'd imagine he's pretty confident about would be the Dalish recruit, since they've recovered from the taint once. Yes, with magic helping them, but they're the only recruit who's even been exposed to darkspawn at all.

And the Dwarven noble, who has fought loads of Darkspawn already.

[Dermain]

Roxlimn wrote...

 

3:  Yeah, try that in real life.  Go to any military unit and have them line up.  Have one of them drink something that mak'es the drinker die horribly right before them and then say "Next!".  See how many step foreward.

In fact, this has occurred already, just not in the same circumstances.  Many soldiers are given pills to drink without any detailed description of what those pills actually do.  In some cases, the side effects were fatal.  And yes, the soldier drank the pills.

If I lined up a unit of Marines for special volunteer duty and asked them to drink a pill that had the endorsement of the US Government and which I, myself, had drunk, then yes I would expect every single one of them to do it, especially under threat of court martial for treason.

Also, when the US did tests on atomic bombs, they stationed soldiers around the blast area to see the effects the bomb would have. To the best of my knowledge they all did exactly that. Granted they ended up with severe radiation poisoning, and sued the governement for that, but they still followed orders. 

Jory fails, and is a dissapointment to polygons everywhere! I also cheered when Duncan killed him(yay)...hated his character entirely. His only accomplishment is winning a tournament, which probably had little to no loss of life.

[HarlequinDream]

Krigwin wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...
The only one I'd imagine he's pretty confident about would be the Dalish recruit, since they've recovered from the taint once. Yes, with magic helping them, but they're the only recruit who's even been exposed to darkspawn at all.

And the Dwarven noble, who has fought loads of Darkspawn already.

Always forget the Dwarven noble. But yes.

[Roxlimn]

 Koyasha:

You're mistaken on one count: The Fereldens don't think of darkspawn as bogeymen because they KNOW they're real and they had met them in battle several times already.  At the time your character comes in, they already had combat, and each time, the darkspawn force was stronger.

If you want a real-life counterpart, try "Communists."  No one has ever seen a "Communist" in middle America - you only know about them through stories.  Now you've volunteered for an elite force that you know are central to the stopping of said "Communists."  Turns out the secret is that they're immune to "radiation" and the reason they"re immune is because they drink "mercury."  Most people die, but some don't.  You have been selected to try it out based on your qualifications.

Would I do it, if the world was under threat of nuclear annihilation and I was one of maybe a handful of people capable of stopping it?  You bet your ass I would.  I wouldn't even need the threat of court martial to do it.

The Joining is what makes the Grey Wardens what they are.  Jory knew that.  He even knew that Grey Wardens are necessary to defeating the Blight and that they got "special powers," one of which was that they can sense Darkspawn.  He knows what's at stake.  He was a soldier given an order.  And he pulled a weapon on Duncan.

He was being a moron and got killed for it.

Really, do they seem that necessary that you need to risk your life on a four hundred year old reputation?

You're a soldier - you're risking your life ANYWAY on the field of battle.  Jory could've died the next day from a stray arrow shot.  As it turns out, he would've been killed anyway.  He was given an order and he not only refused, but drew a weapon.  He's pretty much unforgivable at that point.

[Krigwin]

Which is kind of sad, when you think about it. The two most competent origin characters would probably be the Dwarven noble, who has defeated a battalion of Darkspawn, and the Human Noble, who has fought and escaped from an invading army.

So you have one of those two, Alistair, Jory, whom some would call a coward, and Daveth who... yeah. Duncan better have recruited some serious hardasses who died on the field at Ostagar, or next time the Grey Wardens need to send a better recruiter.

[MassEffect762]

I don't see the Gray Wardens as "Elite", more like die-hard fanatics half suckered into becoming darkspawn killing servants.

[corebit]

HarlequinDream wrote...

corebit wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

One thing I just considered-- We know he's a knight, yes, and I'd wager he's about Cailin's age.

Do we know if he's ever seen battle? Or has he, perhaps, simply served an arl or teryn or the like and been in tournaments but never really fought? I don't remember if the dialogue addresses that. I know he fought in the tournament that was held for Duncan, but does he mention if he's ever seen battle?

Because if he hasn't, that would really explain a lot to me.

That's unfair to him. None of the guys in that camp have seen real battle, not even the King, except Loghain, Duncan and maybe a few old veterans from the Orlais war, And that happened what? Fourty years ago?

Jory has as much courage as any common soldier and knight in there. But what was asked of him was a matter of (almost blind) faith at that moment, not courage. Duncan expected too much from him.

Actually, that's my point.

Jory's been involved in, really, a lot of playing at war. He's used to tournaments and (as another said) fights where the injured or dead are likely allowed to be carried off the field. Skirmishes for power among banns or dealing with criminals.

I'm sure he's sure of himself. He thinks he can take whatever's thrown at him, but then the cold reality sets in, and he shows another side. It's a gamble on Duncan's part-- every recruit is. He has no way of knowing who will actually survive. The only one I'd imagine he's pretty confident about would be the Dalish recruit, since they've recovered from the taint once. Yes, with magic helping them, but they're the only recruit who's even been exposed to darkspawn at all.

Some of Jory's actions rub me the wrong way, but I do think he's very human in the choices he makes.

And my point is, so is almost everyone else in that camp. They are all playing at war. Are they all cowards?

[marshalleck]

Krigwin wrote...
 Duncan better have recruited some serious hardasses who died on the field at Ostagar, or next time the Grey Wardens need to send a better recruiter.

Fortunately for Ferelden, my Wardens don't naively sacrifice themselves for glory, instead opting for the dark ritual, so they'll be around to collect the proper hard-asses and not the flunkies like Jory.

[PinkShira]

nuculerman wrote...

PinkShira wrote...

If I remember correctly, Jory said there was a competition for the honor of joining the Grey Wardens... and he won. That's why Duncan recruited him. He would have been in impolite to say no and that's not something he would have done. Now why Jory entered the competition with a pregnant wife at home is my problem. He had to have known the joining the Grey Wardens was taking him far from home into battles against the Darkspawn which could probably kill him. So besides being a coward to me... I think he is also an idiot. His wife and child are better without him. Now she can go marry a real man!

Not really.  People seem to have not paid attention to the Cailan cut scenes.  Cailan doesn't think it's a real blight.  Cailan thinks they'll win easily.  Cailan was a well-loved king who spent most of his time with his men in the tents.  Soldiers in the army loved him, they respected him, and they probably all hero-worshiped him.  Jory would have been no different.  He had no idea what he was signing up for, and Duncan didn't do anything to illuminate him.

Whether or not Cailan thought it was a true blight, does not mean they were not currently at battle killing Darkspawn.  Jory had to have known this since everywhere I went in Ferelden told me this.  He entered a competition and the winner got a chance to be a Grey Warden.  There are many tales of the Grey Wardens and everyone knows they battle the Darkspawn.  So what did he think they were doing there?  Picking flowers?  You are telling me with all the stories of Grey Wardens, he thought they stood in the back cheering on the rest of the soldiers?  All I can say is that when I was in the wildes with him, he constantly sounded like a coward to me.  He keeps going on about his wife and baby, yet he entered a competition that was definitely going to take him far from them... and possibly die while battling Darkspawn.  How much could he truly care about them since he did this? 

[MassEffect762]

marshalleck wrote...

Krigwin wrote...
 Duncan better have recruited some serious hardasses who died on the field at Ostagar, or next time the Grey Wardens need to send a better recruiter.

Fortunately for Ferelden, my Wardens don't naively sacrifice themselves for glory, instead opting for the dark ritual, so they'll be around to collect the proper hard-asses and not the flunkies like Jory.

Now now careful, that dark ritual may come back to haunt you.