290 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

MassEffect762 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Krigwin wrote...
 Duncan better have recruited some serious hardasses who died on the field at Ostagar, or next time the Grey Wardens need to send a better recruiter.

Fortunately for Ferelden, my Wardens don't naively sacrifice themselves for glory, instead opting for the dark ritual, so they'll be around to collect the proper hard-asses and not the flunkies like Jory.

Now now careful, that dark ritual may come back to haunt you.

I've got blood magic research on my side so if it does, I am ready and willing to take full responsibility for my decisions.

[Roxlimn]

MassEffect762:



Most elite units in history are like that, at least when they're actually still elite and respected.



The Janissaries didn't even wait for volunteers - they conscripted their entire force by force, wholesale.



corebit:



If the King's Force had withdrawn at the sight of the Darkspawn Army, then yes, they were all useless cowards. Such people have no business being on the field of battle.

[corebit]

PinkShira wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

PinkShira wrote...

If I remember correctly, Jory said there was a competition for the honor of joining the Grey Wardens... and he won. That's why Duncan recruited him. He would have been in impolite to say no and that's not something he would have done. Now why Jory entered the competition with a pregnant wife at home is my problem. He had to have known the joining the Grey Wardens was taking him far from home into battles against the Darkspawn which could probably kill him. So besides being a coward to me... I think he is also an idiot. His wife and child are better without him. Now she can go marry a real man!

Not really.  People seem to have not paid attention to the Cailan cut scenes.  Cailan doesn't think it's a real blight.  Cailan thinks they'll win easily.  Cailan was a well-loved king who spent most of his time with his men in the tents.  Soldiers in the army loved him, they respected him, and they probably all hero-worshiped him.  Jory would have been no different.  He had no idea what he was signing up for, and Duncan didn't do anything to illuminate him.

Whether or not Cailan thought it was a true blight, does not mean they were not currently at battle killing Darkspawn.  Jory had to have known this since everywhere I went in Ferelden told me this.  He entered a competition and the winner got a chance to be a Grey Warden.  There are many tales of the Grey Wardens and everyone knows they battle the Darkspawn.  So what did he think they were doing there?  Picking flowers?  You are telling me with all the stories of Grey Wardens, he thought they stood in the back cheering on the rest of the soldiers?  All I can say is that when I was in the wildes with him, he constantly sounded like a coward to me.  He keeps going on about his wife and baby, yet he entered a competition that was definitely going to take him far from them... and possibly die while battling Darkspawn.  How much could he truly care about them since he did this? 

If you read something off a book or hear tales, do you immediately know what it feels like to be there doing the real thing?

It has been so long that most tales and accounts degenerated into the realm of the fantastic and the superstitious. Darkspawn turned into boogeymen meant to scare children. For centuries, nobody on the surface has met darkspawn save adventurers and wilder people.

If the King's Force had withdrawn at the sight of the Darkspawn Army,
then yes, they were all useless cowards. Such people have no business
being on the field of battle.

And Jory didn't flee either, did he? Did he pee in his pants and run screaming at the sight of darkspawn? No, he stayed and fought and bled like all of us. He simply felt it was an unnecesary suicide mission with no hope of accomplishing anything.

Modifié par corebit, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:28 .

[Roxlimn]

For centuries, no American has ever been anywhere near a battlefield except for soldiers and adventurers.



That doesn't mean that you get to desert the moment you see a terrorist bomb your unit to smithereens, and especially not by pulling a weapon on your commanding officer!

[marshalleck]

Roxlimn wrote...

For centuries, no American has ever been anywhere near a battlefield except for soldiers and adventurers.

That doesn't mean that you get to desert the moment you see a terrorist bomb your unit to smithereens, and especially not by pulling a weapon on your commanding officer!

But but but...it's not fair!

[HarlequinDream]

corebit wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

corebit wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

One thing I just considered-- We know he's a knight, yes, and I'd wager he's about Cailin's age.

Do we know if he's ever seen battle? Or has he, perhaps, simply served an arl or teryn or the like and been in tournaments but never really fought? I don't remember if the dialogue addresses that. I know he fought in the tournament that was held for Duncan, but does he mention if he's ever seen battle?

Because if he hasn't, that would really explain a lot to me.

That's unfair to him. None of the guys in that camp have seen real battle, not even the King, except Loghain, Duncan and maybe a few old veterans from the Orlais war, And that happened what? Fourty years ago?

Jory has as much courage as any common soldier and knight in there. But what was asked of him was a matter of (almost blind) faith at that moment, not courage. Duncan expected too much from him.

Actually, that's my point.

Jory's been involved in, really, a lot of playing at war. He's used to tournaments and (as another said) fights where the injured or dead are likely allowed to be carried off the field. Skirmishes for power among banns or dealing with criminals.

I'm sure he's sure of himself. He thinks he can take whatever's thrown at him, but then the cold reality sets in, and he shows another side. It's a gamble on Duncan's part-- every recruit is. He has no way of knowing who will actually survive. The only one I'd imagine he's pretty confident about would be the Dalish recruit, since they've recovered from the taint once. Yes, with magic helping them, but they're the only recruit who's even been exposed to darkspawn at all.

Some of Jory's actions rub me the wrong way, but I do think he's very human in the choices he makes.

And my point is, so is almost everyone else in that camp. They are all playing at war. Are they all cowards?

I think most of them would react in a similar fashion to the Joining.

I felt disappointed in Jory, but I never really felt he was unjustified in what he did. Pulling a weapon on Duncan was stupid, but he felt cornered.

[Roxlimn]

If pulling a weapon on your commanding officer "because you were scared" were at all justifiable in any army, that army would be in BIG, BIG trouble.

[corebit]

HarlequinDream wrote...

corebit wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

corebit wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

One thing I just considered-- We know he's a knight, yes, and I'd wager he's about Cailin's age.

Do we know if he's ever seen battle? Or has he, perhaps, simply served an arl or teryn or the like and been in tournaments but never really fought? I don't remember if the dialogue addresses that. I know he fought in the tournament that was held for Duncan, but does he mention if he's ever seen battle?

Because if he hasn't, that would really explain a lot to me.

That's unfair to him. None of the guys in that camp have seen real battle, not even the King, except Loghain, Duncan and maybe a few old veterans from the Orlais war, And that happened what? Fourty years ago?

Jory has as much courage as any common soldier and knight in there. But what was asked of him was a matter of (almost blind) faith at that moment, not courage. Duncan expected too much from him.

Actually, that's my point.

Jory's been involved in, really, a lot of playing at war. He's used to tournaments and (as another said) fights where the injured or dead are likely allowed to be carried off the field. Skirmishes for power among banns or dealing with criminals.

I'm sure he's sure of himself. He thinks he can take whatever's thrown at him, but then the cold reality sets in, and he shows another side. It's a gamble on Duncan's part-- every recruit is. He has no way of knowing who will actually survive. The only one I'd imagine he's pretty confident about would be the Dalish recruit, since they've recovered from the taint once. Yes, with magic helping them, but they're the only recruit who's even been exposed to darkspawn at all.

Some of Jory's actions rub me the wrong way, but I do think he's very human in the choices he makes.

And my point is, so is almost everyone else in that camp. They are all playing at war. Are they all cowards?

I think most of them would react in a similar fashion to the Joining.

I felt disappointed in Jory, but I never really felt he was unjustified in what he did. Pulling a weapon on Duncan was stupid, but he felt cornered.

Thank you. That was what I was getting at. It is unfair to single out Jory as coward when most people would have done the same.

[marshalleck]

corebit wrote...

Thank you. That was what I was getting at. It is unfair to single out Jory as coward when most people would have done the same.

It's perfectly fair. Most people also wouldn't sign up for duty with the Grey Wardens with the intent of winning personal glory and the expectation that sacrifice not be asked of them.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:41 .

[PinkShira]

Roxlimn wrote...

If pulling a weapon on your commanding officer "because you were scared" were at all justifiable in any army, that army would be in BIG, BIG trouble.

I want to know where he got that sword, since I stripped him down naked and sold all his equipment including his swords!!!!!  And how was it staying on his back???? Blood magic!!! So he deserved to die!

[MassEffect762]

Jory was just plot fodder, the real question/key to Duncans morality "compass" would have been what Duncan would've done if Jory had made a run for it instead of pulling his sword.

That would have made things more clear, would Duncan let him flee or chased and killed him off?

Modifié par MassEffect762, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:44 .

[Roxlimn]

Maybe that's why that force was wiped out on the battlefield?



If so, then King Cailan is to blame for bringing a bunch of people who have no business holding weapons into a serious conflict. For my part, I think the Mages knew what was what and they were all already forced into life-or-death scenarios before - heck they face that everyday.



The Ash Warriors were certainly very hardass; they would've taken the cup without hesitation to a man, if ordered to do so.



Templars? Yeah, I think they're pretty hardass, too. If ordered, I think they would've taken the cup as well.



The rest of the soldiers? Not sure. Certainly, Jory struck me as being the absolute worst example in that entire field. When I had to go up the Ishal Tower after it being taken by Darkspawn, the Circle Mage showed no hesitation in following me or in serving as bait for the Ogre - he performed admirably, without drama.

[Roxlimn]

MassEffect762:



Jory would be running off with what is essentially a State Secret. Duncan would be expected and perfectly justified in running him down and having him killed.

[Krigwin]

Roxlimn wrote...
When I had to go up the Ishal Tower after it being taken by Darkspawn, the Circle Mage showed no hesitation in following me or in serving as bait for the Ogre - he performed admirably, without drama.

But he was left to die on that tower while you and Alistair were carried away in Flemeth's talons

[cglasgow]

Um, 'didn't understand why drinking the blood was necessary'? Duncan says flat-out what the effects of a successful Joining are -- immunity to darkspawn taint. That's a pretty useful thing for a Grey Warden.



Earlier on, Alistair mentions to Jory that Grey Wardens can sense darkspawn.



So, yeah, at the point in time he's shown the cup and told to take a swig, he actually has been given reasons for drinking darkspawn blood. The part about the shortened lifespan and dying in the Deep Roads, he hasn't even been told about yet, so he can't be panicking because of that.

[cglasgow]

As far as Duncan and candidates -- I'm pretty sure Duncan was also confident about the Dwarf Noble, because Lord/Lady Aeducan has experience fighting darkspawn in the Deep Roads. Just a nitpick.

[TomBrokaw]

He is a coward. And an idiot.

Would I be all gung ho to drink that crap if I just saw a dude die from it? Hell no.

But then when Duncan said "dude there's no going back, know what I mean."

I would realize that taking the 50/50 on the drink is better than getting killed by duncan.

Modifié par TomBrokaw, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:09 .

[Roxlimn]

Krigwin:



Exactly. He knew what the risks were, and that it could be that he was never making it out of that Tower alive. Did he **** and moan about it, or worse, run away at a crucial moment? No. That Mage had my back the entire way and then he got killed. Never a peep. Never a complaint. He's an admirable soldier.



Jory sees a few men killed and he gets all panicky. He's a coward for that, but he's also an idiot because given a choice between life or death, he chose death because he was too stupid to pick life. If he could have only mastered his fear long enough to figure out that he couldn't get out of that meeting alive without drinking from the cup, he would've taken his chances with the cup.

[Saurel]

Roxlimn wrote...



You're not supposed to understand. You're supposed to follow orders. Jory refused a direct order and moreover, pulled a weapon on a superior officer. In any medieval army, that is penalized with death.

I take it you consider following the orders of a superior a categorical imperative.

[Apophis2412]

1. Was Jory a coward?

Yes he was. Although he as a soldier had no real wartime experience he refused to do something that was vital in winning the war. There may have been a high chance that drinking the blood would have kill him, but that is irrelevant. If I order a group of soldiers to walk straight through a minefield, because that is the only way to win the battle, than I would expect them to do so.



Also, let's not forget that when Jory chose to become a knight, he also implied that he was willing to die for whichever lord he served. If Daveth had reacted the way Jory did, I would not have been suprised. Daveth, after all, was a civilian.

[Roxlimn]

Saurel:



Unless your superior is ordering you to do something that is clearly against the Geneva Conventions, of which the US is party to, or otherwise is ordering you to do obviously horrific actions.



Even outright treason is justifiable if the treasonous action is a direct order from a superior officer and you have no clear indications that the action was treasonous at the time.



You must understand that militaries and elite paramilitary organizations like the Grey Wardens operate under a different morality. Under the circumstances, it was incredibly noteworthy that YOU are leading, and not Alistair, who is your superior. That is why this is specifically mentioned several times in the game. Of course, at that point, you numbered exactly two, so rank was more or less a moot thing.



I'd like for you to consider a question: what do you think would happen to armies if any individual soldier is free to do what he thinks is reasonable given the current circumstances?

[Saurel]

Apophis2412 wrote...

 There may have been a high chance that drinking the blood would have kill him, but that is irrelevant. If I order a group of soldiers to walk straight through a minefield, because that is the only way to win the battle, than I would expect them to do so.

And if they disagree with your sentiment that is the only way to win and you aren't likely the one to be doing the dying?

[Roxlimn]

Apophis2412:



All too true. It would have been a mortal blow to the honor of Ferelden Knights everywhere if the details of that Joining were to have leaked out! To have a criminal and a civilian Elf outdo a Ferelden Knight in a test of courage and dedication would be something they would have to live down for centuries.

[CloudOfShadows]

I always thought Ser Jory was very important for the joining.

It made it very clear that you didn't have a choice at that point. You couldn't refuse to do the joining.

One of the points that nagged me about, say Mass Effect, you couldn't refuse to become Specter - but if you had refused, what would they have done to you?

[Roxlimn]

Saurel:



Commanding Officers don't act on sentiment, Saurel. They act on orders. If your commanding officer orders you through a minefield, it's likely that he received the order to give that order from a higher officer - possibly from the Command Staff.



If you don't like taking order from a Commanding Staff in an Army, then don't join!!!