290 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Why are you guys trying to apply real world, 21st century liberal western values and examples to a fantasy video game set in a period of time equivalent to European middle ages?

There was no concept of conscientious objection then, and it apparently doesn't exist in Ferelden either, as evidenced by the guy who got imprisoned on merely the suspicion of desertion. There are no Geneva Conventions there either.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:01 .

[Roxlimn]

Well, obviously he was only suspected! If he were a confirmed deserter, he would be dead.

[Saurel]

Roxlimn wrote...

Saurel:


I'd like for you to consider a question: what do you think would happen to armies if any individual soldier is free to do what he thinks is reasonable given the current circumstances?

Morons would get killed. Intellectuals may come up with good ideas but have no way to exercise their strategies. A few unethical officers may lose their abilities for better or worst. You wouldn't win the war ... :0

Now if it was a question of should we encourage this behavior? Nah. But if we are talking about one person disobeying an order and that he is wrong just for that in itself.. I'm a bit of a disagreement.

[Saurel]

marshalleck wrote...

Why are you guys trying to apply real world, 21st century liberal western values and examples to a fantasy video game set in a period of time equivalent to European middle ages?

There was no concept of conscientious objection then, and it apparently doesn't exist in Ferelden either, as evidenced by the guy who got imprisoned on merely the suspicion of desertion. There are no Geneva Conventions there either.

Fereldan society is fairly advanced in terms of social rights. So I think its understandable that people who apply similar ideas. Even if though obviously the bio people have the definite say.

[marshalleck]

Saurel wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Why are you guys trying to apply real world, 21st century liberal western values and examples to a fantasy video game set in a period of time equivalent to European middle ages?

There was no concept of conscientious objection then, and it apparently doesn't exist in Ferelden either, as evidenced by the guy who got imprisoned on merely the suspicion of desertion. There are no Geneva Conventions there either.

Fereldan society is fairly advanced in terms of social rights. So I think its understandable that people who apply similar ideas. Even if though obviously the bio people have the definite say.

Please, Ferelden is about as backwater as it gets in Thedas. Practically every other country is more advanced than they are. Even Orlais is well ahead of them, and they allow their Chevalliers to go around raping women whenever they fancy a tumble. I believe it was Mr. Gaider himself that described Fereldens as "one bad day shy of reverting to barbarism."

They are in no way so enlightened that a soldier refusing orders on moral objections would be respected. He'd be killed just as Jory was.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:08 .

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

Why are you guys trying to apply real world, 21st century liberal western values and examples to a fantasy video game set in a period of time equivalent to European middle ages?

There was no concept of conscientious objection then, and it apparently doesn't exist in Ferelden either, as evidenced by the guy who got imprisoned on merely the suspicion of desertion. There are no Geneva Conventions there either.

Because most real world, 21st century philosophy (liberal or otherwise) states that morality is objective and universal.

[Roxlimn]

He IS wrong in and of itself. The entire backbone of an army is built on chain of command. If you don't have chain of command, you do not have an army.



Just one individual going away unpunished erodes the power of your chain of command. It is intolerable, especially in a time of civil war. Who knows where that soldier has been? He could be a spy selling your army movements to the enemy!



If your soldier isn't willing to jump when you say so, then you either dismiss him before he disobeys a direct order, or you execute him when he does.

[marshalleck]

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Why are you guys trying to apply real world, 21st century liberal western values and examples to a fantasy video game set in a period of time equivalent to European middle ages?

There was no concept of conscientious objection then, and it apparently doesn't exist in Ferelden either, as evidenced by the guy who got imprisoned on merely the suspicion of desertion. There are no Geneva Conventions there either.

Because most real world, 21st century philosophy (liberal or otherwise) states that morality is objective and universal.

Is Ferelden set in the equivalent of our 21st century world? Don't strain yourself trying to follow me here.

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...
Is Ferelden set in the equivalent of our 21st century world? Don't strain yourself trying to follow me here.

The posters in this forum, that is, the people who are applying 21st century values, are in the 21st century. Hope that didn't blow your mind.

Modifié par KalosCast, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[marshalleck]

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Is Ferelden set in the equivalent of our 21st century world? Don't strain yourself trying to follow me here.

The posters in this forum, that is, the people who are applying 21st century values, are in the 21st century. Hope that didn't blow your mind.

You're pro.

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Is Ferelden set in the equivalent of our 21st century world? Don't strain yourself trying to follow me here.

The posters in this forum, that is, the people who are applying 21st century values, are in the 21st century. Hope that didn't blow your mind.

You're pro.

Thanks, I do what I can.

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



By the same token, a Ferelden would be perfectly justified in calling our modern 21st century politicis stupid and pointless - measured by her fantasy values, of course.



I can't believe you're actually defending the provincial attitude of many posters here.

[marshalleck]

I'm actually not making an argument about moral relativism. Rather my point is that to expect Fereldens to respect moral objections that are inconsistent with their social mores is a fail argument.



Fereldens are not enlightened enough to care about conscientious objection, though they could probably intellectually understand the concept.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

By the same token, a Ferelden would be perfectly justified in calling our modern 21st century politicis stupid and pointless - measured by her fantasy values, of course.

I can't believe you're actually defending the provincial attitude of many posters here.

I'm not defending anything. I merely stated that the reason people are applying 21st century ethics and values is that Western Philosophy has its roots in the idea that morality is *universal* and therefore would obviously be the reason that people are applying it to this situation, as the thinking is based in the concept that right and wrong stay the same regardless of variables.

[Maria Caliban]

marshalleck wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's right. He won a competition, and his lord probably spoke highly of him. This doesn't mean he's Grey Warden material. It's possible that the only battles he's faced were part of a large unit of knights against the various tribal and Dalish groups in Ferelden.

Duncan saved Deveth from the hangman's noose. I doubt Duncan extensively checked the man's resume and called around for references. Duncan heard a man was to be killed, learned that he was clever and capable, and decided to try him.

If you look at the various origins, it’s all Duncan has heard good things about you or meets you and decides you have the right stuff. Remember, there aren’t many Grey Wardens in Ferelden and Duncan knows a Blight is starting. His recruitment methods appear to be a series of gambles, and in Ser Jory’s case, that gamble didn’t come through.

...all of which has nothing to do with Jory waffling his way through the first hour or two of the game.

He waffles his way through the first hour of the game because he's a waffle and in a situation he thought he was prepared for, but really isn't.

That's not bad writing; there are plenty of people like that in the real world.

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

I'm actually not making an argument about moral relativism. Rather my point is that to expect Fereldens to respect moral objections that are inconsistent with their social mores is a fail argument.

Fereldens are not enlightened enough to care about conscientious objection, though they could probably intellectually understand the concept.

Well the argument seems to have devolved from "Was Jory acting out of cowardice?" to "Were Duncan's actions leading up to and during the Joining morally justifiable?" which would be where the arguments are coming from. It was just meant to be a light-hearted comment, these forums are ****ing intense.

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



You sure about that? I was under the impression that Western Philosophy had its roots in Greek sophistry, much of which was not about morality at all, and whose content about morality is different from much of modern Western Philosophy.



Are you certain you're talking about roots and not about just content? Moreover, are you certain that all Western Philosophy is like that?

[Roxlimn]

Well, to be light-hearted about it:



Yeah, Jory was a lily-livered skirt-wearing idiot.



Duncan was a great guy for putting the dude out of his misery. Everyone benefits all around. They should've had cocktails over it.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

You sure about that? I was under the impression that Western Philosophy had its roots in Greek sophistry, much of which was not about morality at all, and whose content about morality is different from much of modern Western Philosophy.

Are you certain you're talking about roots and not about just content? Moreover, are you certain that all Western Philosophy is like that?

Well, I suppose I mean ethics specifically,, since that's the area that's getting the most discussion, which is mostly based in some shape or form off Immanuel Kant. Greek Philosophy has its influence as well, but most of it isn't much more than basic logic, or otherwise doesn't hold up as a complete system on its own.

But, I'm hijacking this thread much too far for what I meant to be a throwaway line.

[marshalleck]

Duncan should have realized off the bat that Jory was a flake and left him where ever he found him. He wasn't prepared to recruit just anyone, I am fairly certain he says on more than one occasion that few people have what it takes. I've no idea what he saw in Jory. Again this just goes back to Jory being a clumsy plot device that probably could have been done better.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:31 .

[Jahannam]

Jory was a wuss. He could have drank the blood right then and died...or if he wasnt executed on the spot he could have been in the kings army and died at Ostragar..



He could have not pulled a sword, that would help his cause. Im sorry...you pull a gun on me Im not going to wait till you shoot first to blow your head off with my own gun.



Better yet they coulda stuck him in the cage next to the other prisoner and let the darkspawn gobble him



As I said somewhere before...you dont join the military, get on a battlefield and go..omg! Peoplez die here? Im gonna go home now.



Conscientious objector? Yellow is the word. Put them against a post and kill them...great warning to other idiots that think that joining a military doesnt mean they could die.



Dont wanna die? Dont join a order of armed people that fight wars duh.

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

Duncan should have realized off the bat that Jory was a flake and left him where ever he found him. He wasn't prepared to recruit just anyone, I am fairly certain he says on more than one occasion that few people have what it takes. I've no idea what he saw in Jory. Again this just goes back to Jory being a clumsy plot device that probably could have been done better.

That was kind of my initial argument. That were he not a Grey Warden, I could have seen him serving with honor and dedication. That compared to all other possible candidates (6 origins, Daveth, any secondaries Duncan was looking at in those origins) Jory doesn't seem fit in the slightest. Ducan's lack of discretion in the case of Ser Jory could be considered nearly criminal. He could have fought in the Redcliffe battle where we needed all the blades we could get, had he not been recruited. Not only that, but Redcliffe clearly has much more vastly capable fighters, as it's pretty much impossible to lose any named characters in the first part of the village battle unless you just leave.

Modifié par KalosCast, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[Roxlimn]

What?!?!? You can see that jumpy coward serving with distinction? Where? If he can turn yellow and pull a weapon on a superior officer in a middle of a camp while witnessing what is essentially a clean, bloodless death, then he can do that anywhere on the field.



Most deaths by gunshot are more horrific than that, and don't even get me started on large hacking wounds - those things are never things you want to witness firsthand.

[Blank Syndrome]

Cowards deserve DEATH.

I didn't realize people had such barbaric mindsets. Go figure.

[Roxlimn]

No. Deserters deserve death. Big distinction there. I can tolerate your being a coward, just don't do it while you're watching my frakking flank.