290 réponses à ce sujet

[Jahannam]

Blank Syndrome wrote...

Cowards deserve DEATH.

I didn't realize people had such barbaric mindsets. Go figure.

No they dont deserve death. The deserve a clue...dont want to die? Stay at home and dont join a armed force.

[Blank Syndrome]

Roxlimn wrote...

No. Deserters deserve death. Big distinction there. I can tolerate your being a coward, just don't do it while you're watching my frakking flank.

Not even Duncan thought Jory deserved death, so why do you? There's a significant difference between a "justifiable action" and "justice" and the scene served to show what lengths Grey Wardens would go to in order to cull the Blight, not that what they were doing was right. You can apply "subjective morality" to this discussion in defense of Duncan's actions, among those of other Grey Wardens, but the fact of the matter is, the game itself supports the idea that Grey Wardens sometimes commit atrocities out of necessity, not that it's "morally right."

"It was necessary to preserve the integrity of the Wardens" is an acceptable argument and grounded in the reality of the situation. "Jory deserved to die" makes you look like a horrible psychopath and I certainly wouldn't trust you with my back on a battlefield.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

What?!?!? You can see that jumpy coward serving with distinction? Where? If he can turn yellow and pull a weapon on a superior officer in a middle of a camp while witnessing what is essentially a clean, bloodless death, then he can do that anywhere on the field.

Most deaths by gunshot are more horrific than that, and don't even get me started on large hacking wounds - those things are never things you want to witness firsthand.

It's a lot easier to fight the always chaotic evil enemy when you have an army at your back and are led by King "Rousing Speech Machine" Cailan than it is to face the man you initially trusted to serve under after watching him poison someone and then start speaking to you in crazy cult talk while staring at you wide-eyed holding a chalice the size of downtown Chicago.

Modifié par KalosCast, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:49 .

[marshalleck]

Another point about how poorly executed that whole scene was is Duncan could, or perhaps should have just had three smaller cups for everyone to drink at the same time, to prevent this situation from playing out exactly as it did. But often with RPGs, narrative > common sense.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:52 .

[Blank Syndrome]

KalosCast wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

What?!?!? You can see that jumpy coward serving with distinction? Where? If he can turn yellow and pull a weapon on a superior officer in a middle of a camp while witnessing what is essentially a clean, bloodless death, then he can do that anywhere on the field.

Most deaths by gunshot are more horrific than that, and don't even get me started on large hacking wounds - those things are never things you want to witness firsthand.

It's a lot easier to fight the always chaotic evil enemy when you have an army at your back and are led by King "Rousing Speech Machine" Cailan than it is to face the man you initially trusted to serve under after watching him poison someone and then start speaking to you in crazy cult talk while staring at you wide-eyed holding a chalice the size of downtown Chicago.

Don't be absurd, sir. It wouldn't have alarmed me at all that the reputed Grey Wardens behave exactly like a creepy cult.

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

Another point about how poorly executed that whole scene was is Duncan could, or perhaps should have just had three smaller cups for everyone to drink at the same time, to prevent this exact situation from playing out as it did. But often with RPGs, narrative > common sense.

Well, if I were shipped off to war, I'd probably only pack my full cultist dinette set if I had room. A single cup can be shared or refilled. And it wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic.

[Kaosgirl]

marshalleck wrote...

corebit wrote...

Thank you. That was what I was getting at. It is unfair to single out Jory as coward when most people would have done the same.

It's perfectly fair. Most people also wouldn't sign up for duty with the Grey Wardens with the intent of winning personal glory and the expectation that sacrifice not be asked of them.

This makes Jory a fool more than anything.
What threw me, I think, is that he reacted the way I expected Daveth to; and Daveth reacted the way I expected Jory to.  It must have been the 'wife and kid' versus 'an empty noose' waiting for each at home, but even that just makes Jory more of a fool.

I don't know how anyone could have missed the whole "joining the Grey Wardens means giving up ties to all others, including your country and your family" concept.  If he was not prepared to do that, he should not have even considered competing to be recruited.

[HarlequinDream]

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Another point about how poorly executed that whole scene was is Duncan could, or perhaps should have just had three smaller cups for everyone to drink at the same time, to prevent this exact situation from playing out as it did. But often with RPGs, narrative > common sense.

Well, if I were shipped off to war, I'd probably only pack my full cultist dinette set if I had room. A single cup can be shared or refilled. And it wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic.

PC: Er... excuse me. There's a problem here.

Duncan: There is no backing down now.

PC: Oh, it's not about that. It's just, you know, germs... Can't I have my own cup?

[Jahannam]

KalosCast wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

What?!?!? You can see that jumpy coward serving with distinction? Where? If he can turn yellow and pull a weapon on a superior officer in a middle of a camp while witnessing what is essentially a clean, bloodless death, then he can do that anywhere on the field.

Most deaths by gunshot are more horrific than that, and don't even get me started on large hacking wounds - those things are never things you want to witness firsthand.

It's a lot easier to fight the always chaotic evil enemy when you have an army at your back and are led by King "Rousing Speech Machine" Cailan than it is to face the man you initially trusted to serve under after watching him poison someone and then start speaking to you in crazy cult talk while staring at you wide-eyed holding a chalice the size of downtown Chicago.

Its  alot easier to have reasons of your own to fight a enemy rather than a kings rousing speech. It is better that you want to drink from that wide eyed guys chalice because you truly belive fighting the darkspawn is needed and not just a cool thing to do.

[GmanFresh]

naw dude...its very relaistic.. its easy to be braved behind a controller but we dont know what we would do in a real war setting

[marshalleck]

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Another point about how poorly executed that whole scene was is Duncan could, or perhaps should have just had three smaller cups for everyone to drink at the same time, to prevent this exact situation from playing out as it did. But often with RPGs, narrative > common sense.

Well, if I were shipped off to war, I'd probably only pack my full cultist dinette set if I had room. A single cup can be shared or refilled. And it wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic.

Well people carry their own mess kits. Surely everyone in that camp, Wardens, mages, and king's men all had their own beat up tin cup stashed back in their tent.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:57 .

[KalosCast]

marshalleck wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Another point about how poorly executed that whole scene was is Duncan could, or perhaps should have just had three smaller cups for everyone to drink at the same time, to prevent this exact situation from playing out as it did. But often with RPGs, narrative > common sense.

Well, if I were shipped off to war, I'd probably only pack my full cultist dinette set if I had room. A single cup can be shared or refilled. And it wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic.

Well people carry their own mess kits. Surely everyone in that camp, Wardens, mages, and king's men all had their own beat up tin cup stashed back in their tent.

Well, chalk it up to another bad judgment call on Duncan's part then. Maybe the cup is magic too.

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



Really? Have YOU faced down armed assailants under seemingly impossible odds? Guns and swords don't really look all that frightening... ...until they're real and your friends are dropping dead beside you from enemy fire.



At that point, yes, it becomes incredibly frightening.



In contrast, a little drink that means you're eilte or quickly dead? It's chicken feed. You don't get hacked to pieces by darkspawn. The pain will last for less than a minute. And you have a certain chance at life.



No. Jory's seen battle at your side in the Wilds. I don't know why he acted the way he did but it was both stupid and cowardly.



Also, you fail to account for magic. In our world, magic is seen as implausible and crazy - in their world, it's actually real, with real results. The "crazy cult speak" should be translated as "mumbo-jumbo science-talk," and it would then be totally reasonable.



Blank Syndrome:



1. Duncan is a far more forgiving man than I.



2. What the Grey Wardens do in order to facilitate the slaying of the Archdemon is the only plausible way anyone knows that it can be stopped. If you're for the survival of humanity, then you are FOR the Joining, too, morally speaking. If not, you can start by killing the local townspeople - starting with the women, since they will suffer the worst under the Darkspawn.



The Grey Wardens do some questionable things to defeat the Archdemon. Keeping secrets under pain of death and enforcing chain of command isn't one of those things.

"It was necessary to preserve the integrity of the Wardens" is an acceptable argument and grounded in the reality of the situation. "Jory deserved to die" makes you look like a horrible psychopath and I certainly wouldn't trust you with my back on a battlefield.

I won't desert my post and leave your flank undefended. Jory might. Because he's a deserter and that's what deserters do. If you prefer him, consider yourself lucky you're not a soldier.

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

Really? Have YOU faced down armed assailants under seemingly impossible odds? Guns and swords don't really look all that frightening... ...until they're real and your friends are dropping dead beside you from enemy fire.

At that point, yes, it becomes incredibly frightening.

In contrast, a little drink that means you're eilte or quickly dead? It's chicken feed. You don't get hacked to pieces by darkspawn. The pain will last for less than a minute. And you have a certain chance at life.

No. Jory's seen battle at your side in the Wilds. I don't know why he acted the way he did but it was both stupid and cowardly.

Also, you fail to account for magic. In our world, magic is seen as implausible and crazy - in their world, it's actually real, with real results. The "crazy cult speak" should be translated as "mumbo-jumbo science-talk," and it would then be totally reasonable.

1) I point out again that morale was high, that the Darkspawn had been soundly beaten multiple times already, and he would have been serving with both THE FREAKIN' KING as well as Loghain, one of the greatest tactical minds in Ferelden, full stop. The actual combat is of course terrifying, but when there's quite literally no backing out (since it will just get a sword in your back, and there's no ground to fall back to unless you're in Loghain's charge) you're only choice is to fight. Jory quite literally proved that he will fight when his back is to the wall. Also, most soldiers and other similar organizations are trained rigorously so that even if they're thrust into a situation of pants-wetting terror, they can fight on rote memory and reflex. Or are just brainwashed with enough speeches and propaganda that they don't realize the situation they're in until they've been run through.

2) The drink merely enables you to kill the archdemon, resist the taint and (possibly) sense darkspawn. It doesn't really "make you elite" Grey Wardens are chosen, not trained (Duncan's words).

3) He didn't give any magic speak, he merely said a prayer and then gave Jory the stink eye with "there's no turning back" that's carries about as much weight in a world of real magic as someone trying to back up their claim with only the words "studies show" in a world of real science

I'm not arguing that he was clearly not Grey Warden material, but in "normal" duty, I 

[Roxlimn]

Well, despite the lively discussion, I think we can all agree that Jory was a coward and an idiot, right?

[KalosCast]

Roxlimn wrote...

Well, despite the lively discussion, I think we can all agree that Jory was a coward and an idiot, right?

He's not spec ops material, but he could have at least been useful to soak up a few arrows and maybe take a few Darkspawn down with him.

[Kaosgirl]

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

Really? Have YOU faced down armed assailants under seemingly impossible odds? Guns and swords don't really look all that frightening... ...until they're real and your friends are dropping dead beside you from enemy fire.

At that point, yes, it becomes incredibly frightening.

In contrast, a little drink that means you're eilte or quickly dead? It's chicken feed. You don't get hacked to pieces by darkspawn. The pain will last for less than a minute. And you have a certain chance at life.

A drink which drives you completely insane, stripping from you every reason you had for going through with it in the first place.  A death that means only that you were 'unworthy' - one that does not even stall the enemy if you do not survive.

I know mental anguish so great that it makes deliberately taking the bullet from the gun seem like the preferable option.  I'm guessing you do not, and that is why you treat it in so cavalier a manner while preaching on the horrors that you have seen.

And perhaps with his upbringing, Ser Jory should have been more like you.  I can understand that line of thinking; he was a knight, born and bred to soldiering.  Still, I don't find it implausible to believe he would have embraced a Knight's death while backing down from one less "glorious."

Roxlimn wrote...
Also, you fail to account for magic. In our world, magic is seen as implausible and crazy - in their world, it's actually real, with real results. The "crazy cult speak" should be translated as "mumbo-jumbo science-talk," and it would then be totally reasonable.

Actually, more like Mad-Scientist Dr. Moreau talk.  Even with the Chantry keeping tight rein on the Circle mages, magic was still seen by many as the stuff of Maleficars and Abominations and the source of the blight.  

Magic terrified Jory - you could see it if played as a mage and spoke to him before heading out to the wilds.  And that may have played into his balking at the ritual.

Roxlimn wrote...

"It was necessary to preserve the integrity of the Wardens" is an acceptable argument and grounded in the reality of the situation. "Jory deserved to die" makes you look like a horrible psychopath and I certainly wouldn't trust you with my back on a battlefield.

I won't desert my post and leave your flank undefended.

I suspect you might, if your Commanding Officer ordered it.  Not out of cowardice, but out of a sense of obedience to the chain of command that leaves no room for question.

Much like Loghain's second, who's name I can't remember.  Though at least she hesitated before following the order that left her king to die.

[Blank Syndrome]

Roxlimn wrote...

Well, despite the lively discussion, I think we can all agree that Jory was a coward and an idiot, right?

Yes, absolutely. I simply do not advocate "survival of humanity" no matter the cost and cannot condone some of the Grey Wardens' activities, this being one of them; I agree to disagree on these matters.

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



1. He could be serving under the freaking Maker and he still stands a fair chance of horrific death in battle. That why there are priests in a camp - to prepare soldiers for death, you know?



2. Of course it does. Riordan says it himself - once you drink Darkspawn blood and survive, you will eventually find yourself fighting Darkspawn, possibly constantly, no matter your allegiances. It makes you willing to take on impossible odds, and gives you certain powers. Of course, choosing capable applicants probably accounts for many successes, but at the first Joining, I don't think there there that many choices to consider.



3. In a world of real science, the best analogue would be a pill that Duncan takes from a locked container that is the "essence of (whatever deadly thing you want to place here)." Then, the ritual is proof that all Grey Wardens go through this thing and that this is what gives Grey Wardens their powers.



Chance of death, chance of being superhero - I don't see where the dilemma is, particularly for a so-called Knight who supposedly faces the risk of death everyday.



"Normal duty" in an army occasionally asks you to throw away your lives just to give the King a chance to strike the fatal blow. Not a certain victory, mind you, just a chance for a chance. I think many people have this romantic idea that serving in an army doesn't expose you to risk of death on a daily basis.



You guys are wrong.



Especially in an army like Cailan's, risk of death is quite high.

[Jahannam]

KalosCast wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

KalosCast:

Really? Have YOU faced down armed assailants under seemingly impossible odds? Guns and swords don't really look all that frightening... ...until they're real and your friends are dropping dead beside you from enemy fire.

At that point, yes, it becomes incredibly frightening.

In contrast, a little drink that means you're eilte or quickly dead? It's chicken feed. You don't get hacked to pieces by darkspawn. The pain will last for less than a minute. And you have a certain chance at life.

No. Jory's seen battle at your side in the Wilds. I don't know why he acted the way he did but it was both stupid and cowardly.

Also, you fail to account for magic. In our world, magic is seen as implausible and crazy - in their world, it's actually real, with real results. The "crazy cult speak" should be translated as "mumbo-jumbo science-talk," and it would then be totally reasonable.

1) I point out again that morale was high, that the Darkspawn had been soundly beaten multiple times already, and he would have been serving with both THE FREAKIN' KING as well as Loghain, one of the greatest tactical minds in Ferelden, full stop. The actual combat is of course terrifying, but when there's quite literally no backing out (since it will just get a sword in your back, and there's no ground to fall back to unless you're in Loghain's charge) you're only choice is to fight. Jory quite literally proved that he will fight when his back is to the wall. Also, most soldiers and other similar organizations are trained rigorously so that even if they're thrust into a situation of pants-wetting terror, they can fight on rote memory and reflex. Or are just brainwashed with enough speeches and propaganda that they don't realize the situation they're in until they've been run through.

2) The drink merely enables you to kill the archdemon, resist the taint and (possibly) sense darkspawn. It doesn't really "make you elite" Grey Wardens are chosen, not trained (Duncan's words).

3) He didn't give any magic speak, he merely said a prayer and then gave Jory the stink eye with "there's no turning back" that's carries about as much weight in a world of real magic as someone trying to back up their claim with only the words "studies show" in a world of real science

I'm not arguing that he was clearly not Grey Warden material, but in "normal" duty, I 

Jory wasnt trained...what did he do? Oh he won a melee contest and Duncan noticed him...since Jory was all obsessed with the wardens he gave him a chance. He fights a few darkspawn in the woods and wants to run away. Should be a option to let him run and watch him get mauled. He didnt prove he can fight with his back to the wall. He proved he shouldent be there in the first place.

Duncan chose him because he saw something in him...Jory didnt see what was in himself.

[KalosCast]

Jory wasnt trained...what did he do? Oh he won a melee contest and Duncan noticed him...since Jory was all obsessed with the wardens he gave him a chance. He fights a few darkspawn in the woods and wants to run away. Should be a option to let him run and watch him get mauled. He didnt prove he can fight with his back to the wall. He proved he shouldent be there in the first place.

Duncan chose him because he saw something in him...Jory didnt see what was in himself.

He was a knight, hence SER Jory, knights are soldiers, generally noble soldiers, so they would be trained in combat and outfitted with the best gear their lord could provide to them. However, Duncan couldn't see his obvious weaknesses, especially in his outside loyalties, which made him a pointless death. He shows that he can fight well during your outing the the wilds (he is 1/4 of your group that kills like a few dozen darkspawn) but he was clearly not the type to sacrifice everything, which is the single most important trait in the order.

Modifié par KalosCast, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:36 .

[Saurel]

Roxlimn wrote...

What?!?!? You can see that jumpy coward serving with distinction? Where? If he can turn yellow and pull a weapon on a superior officer in a middle of a camp while witnessing what is essentially a clean, bloodless death, then he .

Mysterious organization giving you potions that seemingly kill you and you aren't given any more info. Vs. Established organization that one knows how works and serves to protect ones home land in an obvious way.

Yeah I can see Jory helping out in ways he can comrepehend.

[Blank Syndrome]

Roxlimn wrote...

"Normal duty" in an army occasionally asks you to throw away your lives just to give the King a chance to strike the fatal blow. Not a certain victory, mind you, just a chance for a chance. I think many people have this romantic idea that serving in an army doesn't expose you to risk of death on a daily basis.

You guys are wrong.

Especially in an army like Cailan's, risk of death is quite high.

Now, see, I take issue with this stance - I can accept death as a strong possibility in warfare itself, but not to what I would perceive to be a loon with a goblet of poison. Ironically, I might've gone through with the Joining with all the information in tow; handled as it was, even if I had done so and survived, I would have felt too betrayed to work alongside Duncan and the other Grey Wardens any longer. I'm not willing to march onto the battlefield with people who withhold information, regardless of their (completely understandable, in this case) reasoning. I cannot trust them.

This is the same as someone being beaten to death by a psycho with a wrench as they're about to go skydiving and saying "I told you it was dangerous!" Of course it's dangerous, Sherlock. I just wasn't aware the psycho with the wrench was part of the package.

[Vizkos]

My main annoyance is how he seeks to join the most elite group in Thedas and does 1 of 2 things time after time:

1) Cry about how there are too many tests.

2) Complain how he has a wife and child at home.



He expects joining the most elite force won't involve weeding out the weak and once you join said force you will die. On top of that, you virtually have to sever any ties you have, including family.

[Jahannam]

KalosCast wrote...

Jory wasnt trained...what did he do? Oh he won a melee contest and Duncan noticed him...since Jory was all obsessed with the wardens he gave him a chance. He fights a few darkspawn in the woods and wants to run away. Should be a option to let him run and watch him get mauled. He didnt prove he can fight with his back to the wall. He proved he shouldent be there in the first place.

Duncan chose him because he saw something in him...Jory didnt see what was in himself.

He was a knight, hence SER Jory, knights are soldiers, generally noble soldiers, so they would be trained in combat and outfitted with the best gear their lord could provide to them.

Well lots of people are knights...they dont have swords and never have held a sheild. Many nobles are nobles in name only...try the human origin. Many commen men fight with no title and are far more " noble and knightly" than those with the title.

PS was Jory decked out in tir 7 plate and sword?....yeah he wasnt that great of a knight

Modifié par Jahannam, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:39 .