290 réponses à ce sujet

[Roxlimn]

 Kaosgirl:

A drink which drives you completely insane, stripping from you every reason you had for going through with it in the first place.  A death that means only that you were 'unworthy' - one that does not even stall the enemy if you do not survive.

I know mental anguish so great that it makes deliberately taking the bullet from the gun seem like the preferable option.  I'm guessing you do not, and that is why you treat it in so cavalier a manner while preaching on the horrors that you have seen.

And perhaps with his upbringing, Ser Jory should have been more like you.  I can understand that line of thinking; he was a knight, born and bred to soldiering.  Still, I don't find it implausible to believe he would have embraced a Knight's death while backing down from one less "glorious."

You would be wrong.  I once sat on the ledge of a 15 storey building and looked down at the ground like it was Heaven.  Only the grilles prevented me from jumping - that and the 10 people outside my door keeping me from going anywhere else.

The drink doesn't drive you insane, you know.

Actually, more like Mad-Scientist Dr. Moreau talk.  Even with the Chantry keeping tight rein on the Circle mages, magic was still seen by many as the stuff of Maleficars and Abominations and the source of the blight.  

Magic terrified Jory - you could see it if played as a mage and spoke to him before heading out to the wilds.  And that may have played into his balking at the ritual.

I played as a Mage my first time and that conversation cemented my opinion of him as a wuss.

He allowed his fear to control him and it made him make a bad decision.  That makes him both a coward and an idiot.  I don't mind people who know fear - only the pathologically insane don't, but for god's sake, keep it under control!

I suspect you might, if your Commanding Officer ordered it.  Not out of cowardice, but out of a sense of obedience to the chain of command that leaves no room for question.

Much like Loghain's second, who's name I can't remember.  Though at least she hesitated before following the order that left her king to die.

If I leave a post under command, then it is not desertion but an order.  It could be because such defense was no longer necessary, or because the unit in question was irrevocably lost anyway - or a hundred other reasons.  The one reason it won't be is that I was too chicken to defend my fellow soldier and thus left him to die without a snowball's chance in hell of surviving.

Blank Syndrome:

Yes, absolutely. I simply do not advocate "survival of humanity" no matter the cost and cannot condone some of the Grey Wardens' activities, this being one of them; I agree to disagree on these matters.

I think you should ask Bioware next time for the "civilian massacre" option, so you can go around putting villages to the sword instead of letting the Darkspawn have them.  You know, because you think it's morally objectionable to do what's necessary to save their lives.

It's easy to go around pointing out that something is morally questionable when YOU don't have to go down there and make those decisions.  Tell you what.  The next time you're faced with a decision that allows you to sacrifice the lives of your entire family so that you can stand for what you believe in, post here - I'll give you a shout out and kudos for practicing what you preach - and condolences for the death of your loved ones, of course.

[KalosCast]

Jahannam wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

Jory wasnt trained...what did he do? Oh he won a melee contest and Duncan noticed him...since Jory was all obsessed with the wardens he gave him a chance. He fights a few darkspawn in the woods and wants to run away. Should be a option to let him run and watch him get mauled. He didnt prove he can fight with his back to the wall. He proved he shouldent be there in the first place.

Duncan chose him because he saw something in him...Jory didnt see what was in himself.

He was a knight, hence SER Jory, knights are soldiers, generally noble soldiers, so they would be trained in combat and outfitted with the best gear their lord could provide to them.

Well lots of people are knights...they dont have swords and never have held a sheild. Many nobles are nobles in name only...try the human origin. Many commen men fight with no title and are far more " noble and knightly" than those with the title.

Which ignores the part where he teams up with a failed thief, a newbie Grey Warden, and someone who is usually an exile and in one case is currently dying from the taint, and manages to slay a few dozen darkspawn despite being outnumbered in almost every encounter. Sure he's reluctant at first, when, you know... the situation quickly becomes more dire than any scout had reported. But fight he does.

Modifié par KalosCast, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:39 .

[Rayne Myria Solo]

KalosCast wrote...

It's a lot easier to fight the always chaotic evil enemy when you have an army at your back and are led by King "Rousing Speech Machine" Cailan than it is to face the man you initially trusted to serve under after watching him poison someone and then start speaking to you in crazy cult talk while staring at you wide-eyed holding a chalice the size of downtown Chicago.

This quote may be the best thing I've ever read on this forum. I feel the need to adapt it to a signature...

[Roxlimn]

 Saurel:

Mysterious organization giving you potions that seemingly kill you and you aren't given any more info. Vs. Established organization that one knows how works and serves to protect ones home land in an obvious way.

Yeah I can see Jory helping out in ways he can comprehend.

He can comprehend combat, but he was wussing out not 5 minutes into the Wilds, with an elite Grey Warden keeping him company, no less.  I wouldn't trust him with mess duty.

Blank Syndrome:

Now, see, I take issue with this stance - I can accept death as a strong possibility in warfare itself, but not to what I would perceive to be a loon with a goblet of poison. Ironically, I might've gone through with the Joining with all the information in tow; handled as it was, even if I had done so and survived, I would have felt too betrayed to work alongside Duncan and the other Grey Wardens any longer. I'm not willing to march onto the battlefield with people who withhold information, regardless of their (completely understandable, in this case) reasoning. I cannot trust them.

This is the same as someone being beaten to death by a psycho with a wrench as they're about to go skydiving and saying "I told you it was dangerous!" Of course it's dangerous, Sherlock. I just wasn't aware the psycho with the wrench was part of the package.

Good luck making it in the real world, then.

ALL organizations withhold information to some degree or other.  You know why?  Because information is power, and whoever has it has the power.  You do not print your company secrets on a flyer and set it loose in the middle of Times Square!

The only difference here is that we are dealing with life and death.  As a soldier, your stock in trade is life and death, namely, your life, and your ability to deal death.

You are not expected to be aware of all information in the Army and asked to act reasonably with a "pretty please!"  You're asked to follow orders, to the death!

Duncan gave Jory everything he needed to know to make that decision: chance at life, or certain death.

[Jahannam]

KalosCast wrote...

Which ignores the part where he teams up with a failed thief, a newbie Grey Warden, and someone who is usually an exile and in one case is currently dying from the taint, and manages to slay a few dozen darkspawn despite being outnumbered in almost every encounter. Sure he's reluctant at first, when, you know... the situation quickly becomes more dire than any scout had reported. But fight he does.

And after all that he wusses out and wont take a drink? You face all this death yet when it comes down to it you wont do something to save ferelden and all in it from the blight? You wont serve the grander cause? Jory is fail.

[Blank Syndrome]

Roxlimn wrote...

Blank Syndrome:

Yes, absolutely. I simply do not advocate "survival of humanity" no matter the cost and cannot condone some of the Grey Wardens' activities, this being one of them; I agree to disagree on these matters.

I think you should ask Bioware next time for the "civilian massacre" option, so you can go around putting villages to the sword instead of letting the Darkspawn have them.  You know, because you think it's morally objectionable to do what's necessary to save their lives.

It's easy to go around pointing out that something is morally questionable when YOU don't have to go down there and make those decisions.  Tell you what.  The next time you're faced with a decision that allows you to sacrifice the lives of your entire family so that you can stand for what you believe in, post here - I'll give you a shout out and kudos for practicing what you preach - and condolences for the death of your loved ones, of course.

This is an extreme take on what I typed and makes no bloody sense either way. I accept what the Grey Wardens do as a necessity, but I don't think think the ends justify the means; this doesn't suggest the means shouldn't be taken, only that when you begin to champion them as "just," you've become a monster. I wouldn't let you watch my back because you have what I view as a psychotic mindset.

[Roxlimn]

KalosCast:



Actually, that's part of what makes me wonder at the whole thing. Jory has killed Darkspawn - he knows what death is like. He knows that if he were to fall in battle, it would be to a horrific wound, and he could just as likely be killed off, hauled off to some Darkspawn ritual, or left to be eaten alive by the Wolves.



He's faced worse than that cup. Why's he acting all stupid all of a sudden?

[Roxlimn]

Blank Syndrome:



Says you. You're the one who thinks that it's okay to take actions that are morally unjustifiable!

[Blank Syndrome]

Roxlimn wrote...

Blank Syndrome:

Says you. You're the one who thinks that it's okay to take actions that are morally unjustifiable!

In pursuit of a greater goal? Yes, sometimes it's understandable to do so, though never morally so. Deluding oneself into believing every action they take is "right" is a slippery slope that produces zealots.

Modifié par Blank Syndrome, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:56 .

[Jahannam]

The ends didnt justify the means...



If Ferelden was dead and the blight won then this statement would work. The ends did justify the means blight over

[Roxlimn]

What makes you think that that's what I'm saying? In this instance, the Grey Wardens are doing the only thing they can to save humanity - the ONLY thing. In the absence of any option, the only choice you have is the moral one. That is, unless you're willing to argue that letting everyone die is morally superior? No?



Well, then what's the problem?



Perhaps you think that enforcing chain of command is just some fad armies happen to implement because the higher ups like a power trip every so often? Maybe, an army will fare just fine if every soldier just did whatever they thought was okay at any given time!



Don't judge my values if you're not even familiar with them. I do not subscribe to Machiavellian practices unless you're engaging in an arena where that is the norm (in which case you're either a fool, or dead).



You either subscribe to Utilitarianism, or you don't. Choose which one - you can't have it both ways.

[Blank Syndrome]

Jahannam wrote...

The ends didnt justify the means...

If Ferelden was dead and the blight won then this statement would work. The ends did justify the means blight over

Yes, the means were necessary. I have never argued otherwise and will not condemn the Grey Wardens. The loss of life should still, however, be lamented, as it was by Duncan.

[Roxlimn]

Sure, lament away. That doesn't mean that Jory wasn't being an idiot and a coward. He still was. He had it all and then threw it all away - for the sake of fear. He never should have been allowed to pick up a blade.

[Blank Syndrome]

Roxlimn wrote...

Sure, lament away. That doesn't mean that Jory wasn't being an idiot and a coward. He still was. He had it all and then threw it all away - for the sake of fear. He never should have been allowed to pick up a blade.

I agree with this and apologize. I thought you were another such person who insinuates that Jory's death was not only necessary, but peachy. There shouldn't be revelry over the death of a cowardly man even if he brought it upon himself (or was in the wrong place at the wrong time, depending on who you ask.)

[Fishy]

corebit wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

corebit:

Don't be so quick to judge people you don't know. Some people actually do put their lives on the line every day serving, and that's for real. Some of them die and never come back. They take that chance every day, even while watching comrades dying horrible deaths beside them.

I'm not judging anyone. If you have served in real life war or have friends or family who have served, you would know that the feeling Jory has is entirely understandable. Everyone who has experienced combat has felt that, nevermind that the setting Jory is in is even more dire.

Ser Jory showed no courage. He was enticed by pride - the glory of serving with the Grey Wardens was what drew him. No courage there. No soldier has a chance to really know what kind of enemy they're facing. In Ferelden facing the Darkspawn, you could be facing down ANYTHING out there. Traditional "serve the country" duties in brutal, medieval warfare doesn't normally end with you going back to your family - in many cases, it ends with a painful lingering death on a bed while your leg festers and rots from an incurable Darkspawn wound.

Again, what part of the Jory dialog gives you the idea that he's doing it for the "glory"? I have done two playthroughs already, and never have I felt that. Besides he has already said that he is not afraid of facing other humans, or wild animals and beasts. Like he said, he doesn't have a problem facing familiar enemies. But the darkspawn look like something come out of a horrible nightmare, and no one save the Grey Wardens or the dwarves from Orzammar were prepared for that. Remember the last Blight occured centuries ago. The darkspawn until now have become legends and stories to "scare little children when they misbehave"

Darkspawn don't have any emotion.They don't fear Death .. They aren't afraid .. They're mindless monster that charge at the sight of you. Only Idiot don't fear death.Maybe you believe all the rant of the old hag (Wynne) .. But she's a 90 years old HAG who has a full life.She talk about not fearing death only when her own death's on the way .She's hypocrite.



When she lecture my character about death i laughed my ass off.How the hell can she lecture me about not fearing DEATH?She's a OLD HAG who has lived for a century , while my character just entered adulthood.
She have no right to judge my PC.Frigging Hypocrite.

Actually Jory acted lke a human being..Daveth was just suicidal and *was* the idiot* . If you're willing to give your life away the sec someone ask you to slit your throat that your problem .. Not everyone's a zealot.

[Jahannam]

Roxlimn wrote...

Sure, lament away. That doesn't mean that Jory wasn't being an idiot and a coward. He still was. He had it all and then threw it all away - for the sake of fear. He never should have been allowed to pick up a blade.

If I was Jory...instead of glory seeking joining the wardens/ kings army I would have stayed at home. Keep my pregnant wife safe and destroy anyone bad on my doorstep. He made a bad choice.

[marshalleck]

Suprez30 wrote...

Darkspawn don't have any emotion.They don't fear Death .. They aren't afraid .. They're mindless monster that charge at the sight of you. Only Idiot don't fear death.Maybe you believe all the rant of the old hag (Wynne) .. But she's a 90 years old HAG who has a full life.She talk about not fearing death only when her own death's on the way .She's hypocrite.



When she lecture my character about death i laughed my ass off.How the hell can she lecture me about not fearing DEATH?She's a OLD HAG who has lived for a century , while my character just entered adulthood.
She have no right to judge my PC.Frigging Hypocrite.

Actually Jory acted lke a human being..Daveth was just suicidal and *was* the idiot* . If you're willing to give your life away the sec someone ask you to slit your throat that your problem .. Not everyone's a zealot.

Likewise, not everyone is capable of heroic deeds, and prefer to allow fear guide their every decision. These people live boring, safe lives and die in obscurity.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:19 .

[Roxlimn]

Blank Syndrome:



I'd only recommend revelry in jest - being "light-hearted" and all and making jokes and what not. It's hard to make good jokes about dying when you've seen any reasonable amount of it firsthand. It's a very serious thing if we want to talk about it for real.



Some people use humor to distance themselves from the horror. I don't begrudge them that defense.



Suprez30:



I would tread a little more lightly about the behavior typical of people who are defending your right to life and liberty. Jory acted like a civilian when he had no right nor freedom to act that way - particularly because he volunteered for it.



If he wanted to cherish his wife and kid, he should have stayed at home where he won't do any damage.

[Jahannam]

marshalleck wrote...
Likewise, not everyone is capable of heroic deeds, and prefer to allow fear guide their every decision. These people live boring, safe lives and die in obscurity.

And live long happy lives without regret for what could have been. Theres no glory in your mind when you are dead. Thats only for the living.

[Roxlimn]

There is no shame in opting out of military service if your home and hearth are not in danger of being destroyed. The strength and economy of any nation is built on the backs of the common folk. It is because of their labor that armies can fight and win the day.

[Kaosgirl]

Roxlimn wrote...

 Kaosgirl:

A drink which drives you completely insane, stripping from you every reason you had for going through with it in the first place.  A death that means only that you were 'unworthy' - one that does not even stall the enemy if you do not survive.

I know mental anguish so great that it makes deliberately taking the bullet from the gun seem like the preferable option.  I'm guessing you do not, and that is why you treat it in so cavalier a manner while preaching on the horrors that you have seen.

And perhaps with his upbringing, Ser Jory should have been more like you.  I can understand that line of thinking; he was a knight, born and bred to soldiering.  Still, I don't find it implausible to believe he would have embraced a Knight's death while backing down from one less "glorious."

You would be wrong.  I once sat on the ledge of a 15 storey building and looked down at the ground like it was Heaven.  Only the grilles prevented me from jumping - that and the 10 people outside my door keeping me from going anywhere else.

The drink doesn't drive you insane, you know.

Actually, it does.  At least, that's what everyone says.  I haven't gotten in far enough yet to see if later revelations contradict that  "common knowledge," but every conversation regarding those who drink of the darkspawn blood indicates a violent and agonizing death for most and insanity for all - including the survivors.

As to me being wrong about you, what little evidence I have is superficial but in contradiction to your claim.  It's what I'd call a reasonable error, if you speak truth.

Roxlimn wrote...

Actually, more like Mad-Scientist Dr. Moreau talk.  Even with the Chantry keeping tight rein on the Circle mages, magic was still seen by many as the stuff of Maleficars and Abominations and the source of the blight.  

Magic terrified Jory - you could see it if played as a mage and spoke to him before heading out to the wilds.  And that may have played into his balking at the ritual.

I played as a Mage my first time and that conversation cemented my opinion of him as a wuss.

He allowed his fear to control him and it made him make a bad decision.  That makes him both a coward and an idiot.  I don't mind people who know fear - only the pathologically insane don't, but for god's sake, keep it under control!

Up to that point, he had.  In the mage-conversation, he shows fear but does not change his course.  In the wilds, he expresses concerns - but only once, and during a moment where there was already the question of how to proceed. 

Only at the ritual does he truly balk. 

Roxlimn wrote...

I suspect you might, if your Commanding Officer ordered it.  Not out of cowardice, but out of a sense of obedience to the chain of command that leaves no room for question.

Much like Loghain's second, who's name I can't remember.  Though at least she hesitated before following the order that left her king to die.

If I leave a post under command, then it is not desertion but an order.  

And there, you confirm it: you would abandon my flank.  And rationalize it as "following orders," a line which by itself risks invoking Godwin.

Roxlimn wrote...
The one reason it won't be is that I was too chicken to defend my fellow soldier and thus left him to die without a snowball's chance in hell of surviving.

I granted you that much already

Roxlimn wrote...
Blank Syndrome:

Yes, absolutely. I simply do not advocate "survival of humanity" no matter the cost and cannot condone some of the Grey Wardens' activities, this being one of them; I agree to disagree on these matters.

I think you should ask Bioware next time for the "civilian massacre" option, so you can go around putting villages to the sword instead of letting the Darkspawn have them.  You know, because you think it's morally objectionable to do what's necessary to save their lives.

Such a paradoxically black-and-white view, for someone advocating the merits of a morally grey outlook.

[Ranik15]

Apophis2412 wrote...

/snipped
If I order a group of soldiers to walk straight through a minefield, because that is the only way to win the battle, than I would expect them to do so.

If you did that, the soldiers would kill you on the spot. No reasonable commander would willingly send his unit to walk through a minefield. Armies aside from the Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40k do not have limitless manpower at their disposal.

Now, the soldiers would be hip deep in **** during a debriefing on why they disobeyed a direct order, but when finding out they decided to use their brains for a plan that could work and not be some mindless drones, they'd have a better chance of not dying.

Plus, if your superior officers found out you ever tried to order and force your men to walk through a minefield, they'd discharge you for mental issues that conflict with serving in the armed forces.

[marshalleck]

Jahannam wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Likewise, not everyone is capable of heroic deeds, and prefer to allow fear guide their every decision. These people live boring, safe lives and die in obscurity.

And live long happy lives without regret for what could have been. Theres no glory in your mind when you are dead. Thats only for the living.

Except their lives are not always long, and certainly not always happy--look at how many people suffer a mid-life crisis when they realize they are 45 years old and have never done anything adventurous in their lives.

A simple aphorism: nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Of course, taking a chance does not mean one should gamble recklessly. And Jory attempting to refuse the Joining and drawing his blade against Duncan was recklessness of the highest sort. He had better chances taking the 50/50 gamble with the cup, but he was too paralyzed and blinded by fear and his unwillingness to face his own mortality to realize it.

By refusing to accept the possibility that he could die, he refused his chance at life and his fate was sealed.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:38 .

[Kaosgirl]

Roxlimn wrote...

I would tread a little more lightly about the behavior typical of people who are defending your right to life and liberty.

If they do so by arbitrarily stripping my neighbor of his life and liberty, they are undeserving of commendation.

[Roxlimn]

 Kaosgirl:

Actually, it does.  At least, that's what everyone says.  I haven't gotten in far enough yet to see if later revelations contradict that  "common knowledge," but every conversation regarding those who drink of the darkspawn blood indicates a violent and agonizing death for most and insanity for all - including the survivors.

As to me being wrong about you, what little evidence I have is superficial but in contradiction to your claim.  It's what I'd call a reasonable error, if you speak truth.

All Grey Wardens are survivors of darkspawn taint.  They are not considered insane, either individually, or as a group.

Up to that point, he had.  In the mage-conversation, he shows fear but does not change his course.  In the wilds, he expresses concerns - but only once, and during a moment where there was already the question of how to proceed. 

Only at the ritual does he truly balk. 

It's fortunate that he only balks at the point where he's the only one at risk.

And there, you confirm it: you would abandon my flank.  And rationalize it as "following orders," a line which by itself risks invoking Godwin.

Following orders is not a justification or a rationalization.  All soldiers are expected to follow orders, and under orders, you are blameless for the results of your actions, if competent.  If you have issues with the orders, take it up with the guy who issued it!

If you were serving with me, you would be expected to follow orders, too, and provided you weren't a traitor or a deserter, I would have no problems with your abandoning my flank under orders - if my unit is too far gone to be saved, I'd rather that you didn't die protecting a worthless area.

Such a paradoxically black-and-white view, for someone advocating the merits of a morally grey outlook.

Some things are not clear cut and easily answered.  That question was not it.