290 réponses à ce sujet

[Roxlimn]

 Ranik15:

You're assuming that that order did not, in fact, come from a superior officer and you're ignoring the possibility that it was the one crucial action to winning the war.  In that case, all those soldiers would be summarily executed for desertion.

Here's an alternative: going out to secure the beach head on Omaha beach turned out to be a costly maneuver that wasn't really all that necessary and was because of an organizational and technical snafu (according to some sources).

The first waves of soldier had horrifically high casualty rates, easily as much as walking through a minefield.  Given that scenario, would YOU have hijacked your vessel and turned away from the battle?

Kaosgirl:

The Joining ritual is anything BUT arbitrary, and doubly so for Jory who volunteered for it.

[Jahannam]

marshalleck wrote...

Except their lives are not always long, and certainly not always happy--look at how many people suffer a mid-life crisis when they realize they are 45 years old and have never done anything adventurous in their lives.

A simple aphorism: nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Of course, taking a chance does not mean one should gamble recklessly. And Jory attempting to refuse the Joining and drawing his blade against Duncan was recklessness of the highest sort. He had better chances taking the 50/50 gamble with the cup, but he was too paralyzed and blinded by fear and his unwillingness to face his own mortality to realize it.

My statement had nothing to do with the topic really. It was simply going out in a blaze of glory is not equal to living a full life. When I was younger, im 36, that sounded great. I did try .  I hear and read about hero's dying for whatever cause all the time...

But I bet you everything I own they would trade all the medals and stuff just to go home again and have everybody forget it happened. To just live life. raise kids like it never happened.

[Roxlimn]

If only it were possible...

[Apophis2412]

Did Jory volunteer to become a Warden or was he forcibly conscripted?

[PappaCube]

Its more fun to watch Duncan gut him if you take his armor off before the ritual. hehehe...



the rat bast4rd coward....

[marshalleck]

Jahannam wrote...

My statement had nothing to do with the
topic really. It was simply going out in a blaze of glory is not equal
to living a full life. When I was younger, im 36, that sounded great. I
did try .  I hear and read about hero's dying for whatever cause all
the time...

But I bet you everything I own they would trade all
the medals and stuff just to go home again and have everybody forget it
happened. To just live life. raise kids like it never happened.

Well of course, and likewise, I bet their loved ones left behind would trade glory for a chance to have their family member back. That's not how it works though, and the difference between bravery and bravado is the understanding that maintaining one's course of action may be to their own great detriment--but pursuing it nonetheless because of the understanding that nothing worthwhile comes without cost. That is courage, and that is Jory's flaw. He wanted glory without sacrifice.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:51 .

[Jahannam]

marshalleck wrote...

Jahannam wrote...

My statement had nothing to do with the
topic really. It was simply going out in a blaze of glory is not equal
to living a full life. When I was younger, im 36, that sounded great. I
did try .  I hear and read about hero's dying for whatever cause all
the time...

But I bet you everything I own they would trade all
the medals and stuff just to go home again and have everybody forget it
happened. To just live life. raise kids like it never happened.

Well of course, and likewise, I bet their loved ones left behind would trade glory for a chance to have their family member back. That's not how it works though, and the difference between bravery and bravado is the understanding that maintaining one's course of action may be to their own great detriment--but pursuing it nonetheless because of the understanding that nothing worthwhile comes without cost. That is courage, and that is Jory's flaw. He wanted glory without sacrifice.

In this instance..in a game...I agree. Read my other posts

[Vicious]

Quite a discussion going on here.



My opinion is of course that Jory is a coward. This is merely due to his response about the Darkspawn Ambush. His reactions to the tainted blood are completely excusable: He had no idea what he was in for and was in over his head.



His crybaby reaction to the ambush was not.



For god's sake, the wounded soldier who was ACTUALLY AT THE AMBUSH shows more backbone than Jory.



He is utterly shameful and for the small portrayal we are given, he is pitiful. And in any case, didn't he get Duncan's attention by winning at some kind of TOURNAMENT? So could it be reasoned that he also achieved his KNIGHTHOOD the same way?



Duncan was right for killing him. If he can't handle drinking some nasty blood and whimpers at the POSSIBILITY of being ambushed how's he supposed to handle charging a freakin Archdemon?

[Roxlimn]

That's what I don't get, really. Jory is joining the Grey Wardens - the hardest ass hardass elite unit on the face of Thedas (even considering Alistair's constant whining). When you put an Archdemon in front of their faces - they charge towards it. He knows this. Everyone knows this. How can he be expecting to face down an Archdemon and near-certain death when he can't face down a cup and a reasonable chance of death?

[Jahannam]

Roxlimn wrote...

That's what I don't get, really. Jory is joining the Grey Wardens - the hardest ass hardass elite unit on the face of Thedas (even considering Alistair's constant whining). When you put an Archdemon in front of their faces - they charge towards it. He knows this. Everyone knows this. How can he be expecting to face down an Archdemon and near-certain death when he can't face down a cup and a reasonable chance of death?

Win thank you. Thats about all I wanted to say in a few short words.

[Blank Syndrome]

Roxlimn wrote...

That's what I don't get, really. Jory is joining the Grey Wardens - the hardest ass hardass elite unit on the face of Thedas (even considering Alistair's constant whining). When you put an Archdemon in front of their faces - they charge towards it. He knows this. Everyone knows this. How can he be expecting to face down an Archdemon and near-certain death when he can't face down a cup and a reasonable chance of death?

He was likely aware he could die, but possessed a highly foolish, vainglorious view of how he felt he should die if it occurred. Of course, war is seldom glorious nor glamorous in practice and that's far and away my most prominent criticism of Jory (and Cailan, for the record.)

[Roxlimn]

If he were really concerned about glory, he should not be backing away in fear. He should have been demanding a more glorious end! Something like - I demand that you remember my name in song! Or some such thing.



He should be angry and offended, not scared and jittery.



If you ask a Marine to die somewhere obscure doing something deadly but mundane, he would balk, not at the risk, but at the chore! "How DARE you stick me serving gruel to some unknown, disgraced Ebola victims!!! I deserve better than this... If you want to kill me - stick me in the vanguard!"



Jory only shows fear, not anger and not outrage. He was being controlled by fear, even though he was initially driven by pride. If he were really all about the glory, he would not have allowed himself to go down so ignominiously - if he knew he had no option (and he did, since Duncan told him at the ritual), then he should have volunteered to go first - it's the glorious thing to do.

[slackbheep]

Jory competed in a tournament which was held in Duncan/Grey Wardens honor, if I recall correctly he mentions this and that he had to do much to earn his place. To me he seemed to be filling the role of a common born Cailan. He focused a little too much on the tales of heroism, and not so much on the reminder of the danger. Literally the first thing you EVER learn about the Wardens is that they sacrifice anything and everything to stop the Blight. The fact that even those who don't know about the taint still consider joining the Wardens akin to a death sentence should probably have made Jory wonder if he might not survive to be the legendary hero he hoped.

[Radahldo]

The Templars held a Tournament for Duncan. The reward (set down without Duncan ever agreeing) was being recruited by Duncan. The strongest fighters were rejected and he chose Alistair. 

“But I didn’t even win the tournament!” he was heard to exclaim.

“I did not ask for the tournament,” Duncan responded. “Nor did I offer recruitment as its prize. I came here seeking a warrior of character and I believe I have found him.”


So why is it that Jory believes he's a recruit because he won a tournament? Duncan really doesn't seem to care for tournaments, so I can't see him seeing one as a test, or a victory in one as saying anything about the persons character.
Was he seriously just recruited cause he's a good fighter? This part doesn't make sense to me.

Modifié par Radahldo, 06 décembre 2009 - 02:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I was surprised Jory was even considered suitable to be a Grey Warden. Duncan was desperate for recruits indeed.

[apantoliani]

Jory may have had a wife and child, but he also volunteered. It wasn't until the chances of him dying got higher than he liked where he balked and played the "I have a wife and child" card. If you talk to him before Alistair in camp, he says as much.



Later on, he wants to return to camp without having seen so much as a darkspawn, nevermind that he is now part of an elite unit specifically created for darkspawn killing, unlike the group of dead guys they found.



One only has to pay attention to the lore to know being a Grey Warden was a deadly affair. Like someone said earlier (on this page even) they see an Archdemon and they charge when other more reasonable men would run for their lives. Their motto specifically mentions sacrifice. It's over glorified because that is the only damn way anyone would ever get suckered into such a raw deal, short of being conscripted. There is a reason there is a Right of Conscription, anyone with half a brain would think of that.



That and the Joining is Blood Magic. My logic behind this statement is:

It involves Mages and Lyrium

In involves blood - darkspawn and archdemon blood even.



If the Chantry found out, they'd have kittens, puppies and their templars marching to the Anderfels, never mind the poor bastards in Ferelden if Jory was let go peacefully.



And oh, he swung first. Twice.

[bjdbwea]

So what if he was a coward (and what I've seen in the game does not support that theory). It would only reflect bad on Duncan to allow a "useless coward" join.

[cglasgow]

re: following orders and soldiers in general -- the US military, at least, has the 'illegal orders doctrine'. If you're ordered to do something that is clearly against the law, you're not only allowed to but expected to refuse.

Doesn't apply to the case of Ser Jory, though: Duncan has every legal right to do what he's doing. The Grey Wardens have the Right of Conscription written into the law of every land in Thedas: if they hand you the chalice and say drink up, then you're stuck. This might not be a very nice law, but since Grey Wardens are the only way to stop species-destroying apocalypses... well, the entire point of Dragon Age is that Thedas is not a very nice place.

And yeah, Jory volunteered, wasn't conscripted, but that only makes his conduct worse.  Daveth was conscripted (and in most origins, your character), and yet neither of you funked out.   Jory was all for the glory, but as soon as he found out the real risks, he wanted a free trip home.  Blaaaah.

Modifié par cglasgow, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[Akka le Vil]

The amount of stupidity in this thread prevented me to go past the first page.

I see a man who fought to the death against darkspawns for several fights being called "selfish" and "coward". I'm pretty sure that 99 % of the people calling him that would wet themselves if they were only seriously threatened with a knife. I'm not even talking about fighting to the death, and not even talking about fighting DARKSPAWNS to the death.

I guess that's the game version of "armchair generals".
Hey people, get real - your CHARACTER is courageous and risking his life. YOU are just some regular guy comfortably sitting behind a screen with a quickload key ready. When I see people arguing that "hey, *I* didn't freak out when I had to drink the blood", I can only /facepalm.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[Roxlimn]

Akka le Vil:



He doesn't, in fact, "fight to the death" in the Korcari Wilds. All the fights there were against only scattered Darkspawn scouts, none of which were particularly powerful. At no point in the game does Ser Jory appear in a fashion that indicates that he's near death.



And please don't make the assumption that none of us here have ever risked our lives in dangerous situations - you don't know us.

[cglasgow]

You are aware that several posters on this thread have faced life-threatening danger irl? In the military? No, of course not, because by your own admission you didn't bother to read more than the intro to the thread before you felt able to hand down moral judgement on everyone in it. So, phbbbbt.

[Grumpycat]

Jory was all whiny out in the Wilds about it being too dangerous and all after they found the dying soldier. He was a coward good riddance. Too bad they lose Daveth though, I bet he would have been a good Rogue companion. He had a good sense of humor too.

[Roxlimn]

It's unfortunate that Ser Jory panicked when he did. It happens, and it's tragic, but it doesn't change what happened. I'm sure that if Duncan had known for sure that Jory would react the way he did, that he would have sent him home instead. That's a waste of good manpower right there. He could be tilling the fields or manning some minor police post somewhere.

[Saurel]

They really should have had more Grey Wardens there....wtf is up with only 2 dudes being there when the possibility of people freaking out is very possible. And I'll be fair to Jory, and Rox I think this was one of your problems with the game (no party members dying)-darkness wise.

Facing down a archedemon and not dying seems relatively not that inconceivable considering how much the party is able to survive through

Meta-wise its easy to view Jory as a coward, because we know what the Grey Wardens are and that they are needed. We know they have to be there to kill the archdemon,etc.  In-game most people don't seem to have that much a clue beyond "they are awesome warriors" .

I think his fears in the Wilds are valid, considering its the eve of a great battle and you are basically scouting the front lines..almost. The fact that we can easily dispense of any enemy in-game makes him seem pansy-like.

Somewhat problematic, because the fact that we can easily dispense enemies with our blades makes Jory's thought process more believable.

But I guess if he is use to fighting men.

Modifié par Saurel, 06 décembre 2009 - 04:26 .

[Roxlimn]

Actually, I don't have a problem with the game's darkness setting. I get enough crap in real life. I don't need to find it in a game. What I want in a game is a nice, pretty world where the main enemy is a mindless beast I get to kill without any moral dilemmas whatsoever. Dragon Age delivers on that, no problem.