1057 réponses à ce sujet

[KevShep]

removed

Modifié par KevShep, 13 avril 2012 - 07:44 .

[jijeebo]

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

errmm... Yes they do.

In the past they have because the Reapers goal is to destroy the advanced organics in the galaxy and indoctrination gives them valuable agents.

If the ending is taken at face value there is no reason to assume indoctrination still occurs.  That is no longer the Starchilds goal.

So what you're saying is that the reapers actually Want to be defeated?

He's saying that once Shep meets the catalyst, it has no reason to indoctrinate people anymore because indoctrination is a component of a solution that no longer works.

The reapers bow to the will of the catalyst, and during the ending it deemed them no longer necessary.

So now you're saying that the reapers would let themselves be killed because the catalyst tells them to?
That pretty much defies his own logic: "The created will always rebel against the creators..."

It's not like they know whats about to potentially happen do they?

And even if they did, theres no indication that the reapers are advanced enough to display independent thought that I am aware of... Seeing as they never ever ever ever question anything throughout the whole series, and they very much seem to be programmed for eternal "Arrogance and genocide." mode.

[estebanus]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

well going by dream interpretation, running in slow motion represents stress/feeling powerless

Things are often backwards in Dreams to I think. Something about our brain reverses the image our eyes see. This would explain why there is backwards text all around the ending.

the 1M1 signs are not reversed. They are inverted because the structure it's printed on is upside down. If you look at a couple that aren't the 1M1 are not reversed.

Also, if he were dreaming, everything would be in slow motion all the way to the end.

Unless you're going to suggest that indoctrination dreams allow this, even though we've yet to see anyone experience this in the games before.

No it wouldn't.
You don't notice being indoctrinated, do you?

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

well going by dream interpretation, running in slow motion represents stress/feeling powerless

Things are often backwards in Dreams to I think. Something about our brain reverses the image our eyes see. This would explain why there is backwards text all around the ending.

Or more likely BW got a tab lazy and couldn't be bothered to turn the text the right way, hoping no one would notice.

If you look at where the text is written, it is on a "pylon" that frequently appears through out the game including multiplayer, it often has different text on it but the text is always frontwards. It would need to be deliberatly placed reversed.

Photo?

[EpyonX3]

estebanus wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

You guys need to look at the symbolism and the metaphors.

Control: Shepard is trying to hold onto something he can't control, something that will kill him.

Synthesis: This is appealing to Shep's heroic side, he is sacrificing himself to save everyone. But it is a false hope because; half synthies could still create full synthies. (the created always rebel against the creator) and is also based on the lie that Synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution. Its actually the end of evolution and is the same fallacy that Saren believed in.

Destroy: You keep fighting, you keep resisting, you destroy the reapers no matter the cost.

Why do we need to see it that way? There's nothing in the story that makes us lean towards looking at things symblically. Especially at the last ten minutes.

Uhh, the dreams... and the Geth Consensus.

The dreams were explained by Shepard each time he woke up, leaving us with little to no work to do trying to decipher them. The consensus happened in reality and where a visaul representation of being inside of a physical server. No need for interpretation.

So I ask again, when have we needed to rethink events in ME3 metaphorically and symbolically?

How about Adam and Ev- Uhm... I mean joker and EDI after the Normandy crashes?

What about it? Why should rethink that scene symbolically? They crash landed and started civilization on that planet. The stargazer at the end of the credits confirms this.

Think about what you just said. I mean it. THINK.
How can this not be seen symbolically?

A male and a "female" landing on a new world. Banished from their own one. A symbol of acceptance and love between two different groups (synthetics and organics), united in their love to each other. A symbol of tolerance. Of hope. 

How can this not be seen symbolically?

This is overthinking. Overthinking dowsn't always make something right. If you pick the control option, EDI will be incapable of reprodcuing. Making this point invalid. Also, what happens when Joker steps out with Garrus? What does that supposed to symbolize?

What if you killed all of the geth on rannoch and killed the reapers?

This is all pointless really and does little to prove IT right or wrong.

[rachellouise]

if the dreams were signs of indoctrination, the signs would not disappear upon waking. He can't be being indoctrinated, then not, then being indoctrinated, etc. It would be continuous. Which is why people just give in.

[EpyonX3]

estebanus wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

well going by dream interpretation, running in slow motion represents stress/feeling powerless

Things are often backwards in Dreams to I think. Something about our brain reverses the image our eyes see. This would explain why there is backwards text all around the ending.

the 1M1 signs are not reversed. They are inverted because the structure it's printed on is upside down. If you look at a couple that aren't the 1M1 are not reversed.

Also, if he were dreaming, everything would be in slow motion all the way to the end.

Unless you're going to suggest that indoctrination dreams allow this, even though we've yet to see anyone experience this in the games before.

No it wouldn't.
You don't notice being indoctrinated, do you?

This is looking like a troll attempt at this point. I'd put up some pics but I'd rather just end it here.

[estebanus]

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

errmm... Yes they do.

In the past they have because the Reapers goal is to destroy the advanced organics in the galaxy and indoctrination gives them valuable agents.

If the ending is taken at face value there is no reason to assume indoctrination still occurs.  That is no longer the Starchilds goal.

So what you're saying is that the reapers actually Want to be defeated?

He's saying that once Shep meets the catalyst, it has no reason to indoctrinate people anymore because indoctrination is a component of a solution that no longer works.

The reapers bow to the will of the catalyst, and during the ending it deemed them no longer necessary.

So now you're saying that the reapers would let themselves be killed because the catalyst tells them to?
That pretty much defies his own logic: "The created will always rebel against the creators..."

It's not like they know whats about to potentially happen do they?

And even if they did, theres no indication that the reapers are advanced enough to display independent thought that I am aware of... Seeing as they never ever ever ever question anything throughout the whole series, and they very much seem to be programmed for eternal "Arrogance and genocide." mode.

But you just said that they know what's gonna happen!
You said that the catalyst tells them to stand down because They aren't needed any more!
You're contradicting your own logic!

Sovereign nevewr says that he is doing what he is to save you, does he?
Hell, he even uses an army of synthetics, the very thing the reapers are supposed to "save" organics from, to take over the citadel!

[NM_Che56]

SubAstris wrote...

Master Che wrote...

It's not a mechanic.  It's a twist to the story. 

In dramatic irony, the reader knows what's going on but the character doesn't.  That removes you from the character.  this is a role playing game.

the kind of irony (can't recall the name) here is the kind like you experience when you see the 6th sense for the first time; neither YOU nor BRUCE WILLS knows that he's a ghost.  A total WTF moment for both you, the audience, and the character.

I haven't actually seen that movie, but I assume that once it is revealed, it is clear that all those things which didn't really make sense before suddenly made sense, yes? Now, that didn't happen in ME, people were completely confused by the ending, and it is certainly not due to people being less intelligent. It is due to BW's incompotence, assuming IT, on the matter and that is why it failed. Instead people had to resort to forums and youtube vids to establish the "truth", a good ending does not do that.

Did you see fight club?

DAMN! Sorry to ruin the movie, but when you find out then you start going through all of the *signs* from throughout the movie that tie it together.  In the beginning, you think him and his wife were just not talking to each other and that she was pissed at him. She was actually in mourning! She can't see dead people like Halley Joel Osmit or however you spell it.

Check it out


The only difference with ME is that there's no big reveal ... yet.  They either planned on letting people mull it over before releasing stuff later OR they just wanted it to be coffee talk.  That could have been a mistake in retrospect on their end.  It doesn't invalidate the theory, though.  It just argues that it wasn't rolled out correctly.

[Falloutwarfare]

ajm317 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

the kind of irony (can't recall the name) here is the kind like you experience when you see the 6th sense for the first time; neither YOU nor BRUCE WILLS knows that he's a ghost.  A total WTF moment for both you, the audience, and the character.

Clearly it can't be that kind of irony because there is no "Bruce Willis is a ghost" moment in ME3.  At no point do they come out and say "Surprise!  You were indoctrinated!".  They've also made it pretty clear they're not going to.

but we havent had the extended cut dlc so we havent realy seen the end in all its............ glory?

so Bioware could very well do the "Bruce Willis is a ghost" moment you speak of

but we wont know untill said dlc is released so *clears throat* SPECULATION!!

lol

[ajm317]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

Then why hasn't Bioware come out and said something like "while we appreciate the lengths to which fans have gone to explain the endings, the Indoctrination Theory isn't true." 

There are two reasons they may be holding off on this statement:

1.  There are basically two ways of looking at art.  The first is that the only interpretation that matters is the artists.  The second is that any interpretation is equally valid.  The developers have made it clear they're in the second group.

Artists in the second group almost never reveal what their intentions were when writing a work because they want people to keep guessing and interpreting.  They want discussion.  If they came out and said IT was bunk then no one would talk about it anymore, and even if they didn't intentionally put IT in the game that doesn't mean they don't want people to discuss it.

2.  Bioware has come to terms with the fact their ending stinks and is planning to rip of the fan made IT at a later date.  In that case you may still get what you want, but it won't have been the result of any grand plan.  It will have been the result of Bioware trying to salvage a mess using crowd sourcing.

[Tirian Thorn]

EpyonX3 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

well going by dream interpretation, running in slow motion represents stress/feeling powerless

Things are often backwards in Dreams to I think. Something about our brain reverses the image our eyes see. This would explain why there is backwards text all around the ending.

the 1M1 signs are not reversed. They are inverted because the structure it's printed on is upside down. If you look at a couple that aren't the 1M1 are not reversed.

Also, if he were dreaming, everything would be in slow motion all the way to the end.

Unless you're going to suggest that indoctrination dreams allow this, even though we've yet to see anyone experience this in the games before.

No it wouldn't.
You don't notice being indoctrinated, do you?

This is looking like a troll attempt at this point. I'd put up some pics but I'd rather just end it here.

That's a valid point - you don't notice being indoctrinated.  It's subtle, devious, etc. 

And just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a troll.    estebanus has been involved in discussions on this forum. 

[NM_Che56]

rachellouise wrote...

if the dreams were signs of indoctrination, the signs would not disappear upon waking. He can't be being indoctrinated, then not, then being indoctrinated, etc. It would be continuous. Which is why people just give in.

I don't remember reading where it was continuous.  Could you show me?  It does say that it has subliminal elements to it; i.e. occuring outside of conscious awareness. So while he's awake, the process is still going.

*codex*


Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years.

[ajm317]

Falloutwarfare wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

the kind of irony (can't recall the name) here is the kind like you experience when you see the 6th sense for the first time; neither YOU nor BRUCE WILLS knows that he's a ghost.  A total WTF moment for both you, the audience, and the character.

Clearly it can't be that kind of irony because there is no "Bruce Willis is a ghost" moment in ME3.  At no point do they come out and say "Surprise!  You were indoctrinated!".  They've also made it pretty clear they're not going to.

but we havent had the extended cut dlc so we havent realy seen the end in all its............ glory?

so Bioware could very well do the "Bruce Willis is a ghost" moment you speak of

but we wont know untill said dlc is released so *clears throat* SPECULATION!!

lol

Well according to quotes in this thread they've already clearly stated they will never confirm or deny IT.

That doesn't mean they won't do it, but it would make them blatant liers if they did.

Modifié par ajm317, 13 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[EpyonX3]

rachellouise wrote...

if the dreams were signs of indoctrination, the signs would not disappear upon waking. He can't be being indoctrinated, then not, then being indoctrinated, etc. It would be continuous. Which is why people just give in.

This is even in the very definition of Indoctrination. You need prolonged exposure before you start feeling its effects. Benezia and Rana repeat this to you in ME1.

It's the part of the definition that theorists overlook.

[rachellouise]

It says throughout the game, if you read the datapads and accounts of people being indoctrinated

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

well going by dream interpretation, running in slow motion represents stress/feeling powerless

Things are often backwards in Dreams to I think. Something about our brain reverses the image our eyes see. This would explain why there is backwards text all around the ending.

the 1M1 signs are not reversed. They are inverted because the structure it's printed on is upside down. If you look at a couple that aren't the 1M1 are not reversed.

Also, if he were dreaming, everything would be in slow motion all the way to the end.

Unless you're going to suggest that indoctrination dreams allow this, even though we've yet to see anyone experience this in the games before.

The way I see it is it's a multi layer inception type thing, The first part right after Harby's beam, you have to be subtle, is he moving slow because he's hurt? Well then why are all the enemies in slow motion to?

In the second layer, we use his memories and thoughts against him to make him feel a certain way. The collector ship reference, The shadow broker ship reference. and in the TIM and Anderson scene it looks like business as usual on the arms, car lights moving in an orderly fashion and what not.

The final layer, you are "plugged in" to Harbingers mainframe, he tries to manipulate you to use the crucble in the way he sees fit.

[Tirian Thorn]

ajm317 wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

Then why hasn't Bioware come out and said something like "while we appreciate the lengths to which fans have gone to explain the endings, the Indoctrination Theory isn't true." 

There are two reasons they may be holding off on this statement:

1.  There are basically two ways of looking at art.  The first is that the only interpretation that matters is the artists.  The second is that any interpretation is equally valid.  The developers have made it clear they're in the second group.

Artists in the second group almost never reveal what their intentions were when writing a work because they want people to keep guessing and interpreting.  They want discussion.  If they came out and said IT was bunk then no one would talk about it anymore, and even if they didn't intentionally put IT in the game that doesn't mean they don't want people to discuss it.

2.  Bioware has come to terms with the fact their ending stinks and is planning to rip of the fan made IT at a later date.  In that case you may still get what you want, but it won't have been the result of any grand plan.  It will have been the result of Bioware trying to salvage a mess using crowd sourcing.

Great points. 

Thank you for an intelligent discussion. 

[NM_Che56]

ajm317 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

the kind of irony (can't recall the name) here is the kind like you experience when you see the 6th sense for the first time; neither YOU nor BRUCE WILLS knows that he's a ghost.  A total WTF moment for both you, the audience, and the character.

Clearly it can't be that kind of irony because there is no "Bruce Willis is a ghost" moment in ME3.  At no point do they come out and say "Surprise!  You were indoctrinated!".  They've also made it pretty clear they're not going to.

1) Not yet...DLC? Maybe their stategy was to piece meal elements of the ending or supporting info over the DLC cycle? We'll see come summer.

2) Show me where it was made clear?

[SubAstris]

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Master Che wrote...

It's not a mechanic.  It's a twist to the story. 

In dramatic irony, the reader knows what's going on but the character doesn't.  That removes you from the character.  this is a role playing game.

the kind of irony (can't recall the name) here is the kind like you experience when you see the 6th sense for the first time; neither YOU nor BRUCE WILLS knows that he's a ghost.  A total WTF moment for both you, the audience, and the character.

I haven't actually seen that movie, but I assume that once it is revealed, it is clear that all those things which didn't really make sense before suddenly made sense, yes? Now, that didn't happen in ME, people were completely confused by the ending, and it is certainly not due to people being less intelligent. It is due to BW's incompotence, assuming IT, on the matter and that is why it failed. Instead people had to resort to forums and youtube vids to establish the "truth", a good ending does not do that.

Did you see fight club?

DAMN! Sorry to ruin the movie, but when you find out then you start going through all of the *signs* from throughout the movie that tie it together.  In the beginning, you think him and his wife were just not talking to each other and that she was pissed at him. She was actually in mourning! She can't see dead people like Halley Joel Osmit or however you spell it.

Check it out


The only difference with ME is that there's no big reveal ... yet.  They either planned on letting people mull it over before releasing stuff later OR they just wanted it to be coffee talk.  That could have been a mistake in retrospect on their end.  It doesn't invalidate the theory, though.  It just argues that it wasn't rolled out correctly.

Yes because EA love p***ing off their loyal fanbase when they could have easily released the "gotcha!" moment at the ending. Why EA would ever pursue such sales tactic is beyond me...they could have made a killing by selling DLC and giving fans a complete ending, it would have made happy customers. Now they have to back peddle and concede; why would EA take the risk? Furthermore, as time goes on, the less likely it is that IT is right; it really needs a quick reveal to work.

[NM_Che56]

ajm317 wrote...

Falloutwarfare wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

the kind of irony (can't recall the name) here is the kind like you experience when you see the 6th sense for the first time; neither YOU nor BRUCE WILLS knows that he's a ghost.  A total WTF moment for both you, the audience, and the character.

Clearly it can't be that kind of irony because there is no "Bruce Willis is a ghost" moment in ME3.  At no point do they come out and say "Surprise!  You were indoctrinated!".  They've also made it pretty clear they're not going to.

but we havent had the extended cut dlc so we havent realy seen the end in all its............ glory?

so Bioware could very well do the "Bruce Willis is a ghost" moment you speak of

but we wont know untill said dlc is released so *clears throat* SPECULATION!!

lol

Well according to quotes in this thread they've already clearly stated they will never confirm or deny IT.

That doesn't mean they won't do it, but it would make them blatant liers if they did.

BINGO!

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

if the dreams were signs of indoctrination, the signs would not disappear upon waking. He can't be being indoctrinated, then not, then being indoctrinated, etc. It would be continuous. Which is why people just give in.

This is even in the very definition of Indoctrination. You need prolonged exposure before you start feeling its effects. Benezia and Rana repeat this to you in ME1.

It's the part of the definition that theorists overlook.

Rana herself is proof tha indoctrination is accumalative and can lay doramant.

http://masseffect.wi.../Rana_Thanoptis 

Modifié par balance5050, 13 avril 2012 - 07:56 .

[Falloutwarfare]

@ajm317 i did hear that nothing would be confirmed but didnt know if it was itself confirmed

so thanx for the confirmation

[estebanus]

EpyonX3 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

You guys need to look at the symbolism and the metaphors.

Control: Shepard is trying to hold onto something he can't control, something that will kill him.

Synthesis: This is appealing to Shep's heroic side, he is sacrificing himself to save everyone. But it is a false hope because; half synthies could still create full synthies. (the created always rebel against the creator) and is also based on the lie that Synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution. Its actually the end of evolution and is the same fallacy that Saren believed in.

Destroy: You keep fighting, you keep resisting, you destroy the reapers no matter the cost.

Why do we need to see it that way? There's nothing in the story that makes us lean towards looking at things symblically. Especially at the last ten minutes.

Uhh, the dreams... and the Geth Consensus.

The dreams were explained by Shepard each time he woke up, leaving us with little to no work to do trying to decipher them. The consensus happened in reality and where a visaul representation of being inside of a physical server. No need for interpretation.

So I ask again, when have we needed to rethink events in ME3 metaphorically and symbolically?

How about Adam and Ev- Uhm... I mean joker and EDI after the Normandy crashes?

What about it? Why should rethink that scene symbolically? They crash landed and started civilization on that planet. The stargazer at the end of the credits confirms this.

Think about what you just said. I mean it. THINK.
How can this not be seen symbolically?

A male and a "female" landing on a new world. Banished from their own one. A symbol of acceptance and love between two different groups (synthetics and organics), united in their love to each other. A symbol of tolerance. Of hope. 

How can this not be seen symbolically?

This is overthinking. Overthinking dowsn't always make something right. If you pick the control option, EDI will be incapable of reprodcuing. Making this point invalid. Also, what happens when Joker steps out with Garrus? What does that supposed to symbolize?

What if you killed all of the geth on rannoch and killed the reapers?

This is all pointless really and does little to prove IT right or wrong.

Look, this whole Eden thing comes from when you choose synthesis, as it is a metaphorical "rebirth" of all sapient life. What better way to symbolize this than by showing the literal merging between organics and synthetics than by showing them both standing beside each other, embracing eachother in acceptance and love?

I can also explain the symbolic meaning of when Joker doesn't come out with EDI: Friendship.
It shows that friendship is stronger than any other force in the galaxy, and that through friendship, you can overcome any obstacle, no matter how difficult. Even if it means being banished from your homeworld, your friendship to those around you WILL endure!

Get my point?

[jijeebo]

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

errmm... Yes they do.

In the past they have because the Reapers goal is to destroy the advanced organics in the galaxy and indoctrination gives them valuable agents.

If the ending is taken at face value there is no reason to assume indoctrination still occurs.  That is no longer the Starchilds goal.

So what you're saying is that the reapers actually Want to be defeated?

He's saying that once Shep meets the catalyst, it has no reason to indoctrinate people anymore because indoctrination is a component of a solution that no longer works.

The reapers bow to the will of the catalyst, and during the ending it deemed them no longer necessary.

So now you're saying that the reapers would let themselves be killed because the catalyst tells them to?
That pretty much defies his own logic: "The created will always rebel against the creators..."

It's not like they know whats about to potentially happen do they?

And even if they did, theres no indication that the reapers are advanced enough to display independent thought that I am aware of... Seeing as they never ever ever ever question anything throughout the whole series, and they very much seem to be programmed for eternal "Arrogance and genocide." mode.

But you just said that they know what's gonna happen!
You said that the catalyst tells them to stand down because They aren't needed any more!
You're contradicting your own logic!

Theres a MASSIVE difference between "Stop indoctrinating people" and "I'm about to let Shepard kill you"... Isn't there?

Sovereign nevewr says that he is doing what he is to save you, does he?
Hell, he even uses an army of synthetics, the very thing the reapers are supposed to "save" organics from, to take over the citadel!

Star child wasn't part of the story back then, but even so there's nothing to say the catalyst didn't tell Sovereign to get himself some help to claim the citadel and that the geth were a lot easier to recruit en masse quickly.