1057 réponses à ce sujet

[NM_Che56]

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Modifié par Master Che, 13 avril 2012 - 08:09 .

[EpyonX3]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

if the dreams were signs of indoctrination, the signs would not disappear upon waking. He can't be being indoctrinated, then not, then being indoctrinated, etc. It would be continuous. Which is why people just give in.

This is even in the very definition of Indoctrination. You need prolonged exposure before you start feeling its effects. Benezia and Rana repeat this to you in ME1.

It's the part of the definition that theorists overlook.

And Shepard didn't have prolonged exposure to Reaper tech?

Contact with Soverign.
Contact with the derelict reaper in ME2. 
Contact with the proto reaper in ME2. 
Two days exposure to Object Rho in Arrival DLC. 
EDI is part reaper tech.  (maybe not enough for Indoc, I don't know)
Contact with Reapers throughout ME2.  Ronnoch, The planet where you find the Rachni is full of Reaper tech)

How much exposure does it take?  I don't know.  They don't give exact figures as to how long.  But Shepard has seen a fair amount of it.  At least enough for it to be a possibility in my opinion. 

What you guys don't understand is that prolonged exposure in this case means being in range of the indoctrinating forces continously. It's not an off and on thing. Benezia was able to fight it off for a brief moment to describe it. The longer you stay aboard sovereign, the more Saren's will seems correct.

Key point is that they had to be aboard and for a long period of time before they followed Saren unconditionally. Shepard has never been near reaper tech for that length of time. Infact, Shepard never really came close to Sovereign, so his supposed indcotrination wouldn't have started until he got to the suicide mission, the Derelict reaper(which he wasn't alone on it) or object Rho.

[SubAstris]

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What a masterclass in overanalysis!

Please, enlighten us all oh most wise and all-knowing SubAstris.  You seem to have the "correct" answers and the rest of us IT supporters are just too stupid to figure it out. 

All I've seen you do so far is point at what people are saying and basically say "well, that's dumb."  Yet you offer nothing of value to the discussion. 

Yes, because all I have done is attack people on their intelligence... they are stupid so they believe in indoctrination....

I actually find IT interesting, just I don't personally believe it has enough evidence going for it and each piece of evidence can be explained without IT with fewer and less shaky assumptions. I don't think indoc. theorists are necessarily stupid, just wrong.

Please explain.  I mean no sarcasm.  That's why I made the thread.  Tell us your doubts. If you make good and compelling arguments then let them stand.

There's no obligation on the one contesting the claim to disprove the claim, rather for the one proposing it to provide considerable and sound evidence

[DrSpoonbender]

If indoctrination is involved:

It appears that indoctrination began to effect Shepard perception after the events involving the Reaper’s beam attack. That is when people site the unlimited ammo among other things.

It would seem to me that we should question what if any physical progress was actually made after this point.

If Shepard wakes up still in London what next?

If Shepard did make it to the crucible and indoctrination was only used to influence Shepard’s decision what does it change? Don’t we still have the same plot issues? Are the cut scenes that we witness after our final decision false images?

I agree something unworldly seems to be at work, I just don’t understand what it can solve.
Thanks.

[OdanUrr]

Master Che wrote...

the kind of irony (can't recall the name) here is the kind like you experience when you see the 6th sense for the first time; neither YOU nor BRUCE WILLS knows that he's a ghost.  A total WTF moment for both you, the audience, and the character.

You can get away with that because it's, at best, a two-hour movie and the entire plot revolves around seeing things that are not there.

[estebanus]

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

errmm... Yes they do.

In the past they have because the Reapers goal is to destroy the advanced organics in the galaxy and indoctrination gives them valuable agents.

If the ending is taken at face value there is no reason to assume indoctrination still occurs.  That is no longer the Starchilds goal.

So what you're saying is that the reapers actually Want to be defeated?

He's saying that once Shep meets the catalyst, it has no reason to indoctrinate people anymore because indoctrination is a component of a solution that no longer works.

The reapers bow to the will of the catalyst, and during the ending it deemed them no longer necessary.

So now you're saying that the reapers would let themselves be killed because the catalyst tells them to?
That pretty much defies his own logic: "The created will always rebel against the creators..."

It's not like they know whats about to potentially happen do they?

And even if they did, theres no indication that the reapers are advanced enough to display independent thought that I am aware of... Seeing as they never ever ever ever question anything throughout the whole series, and they very much seem to be programmed for eternal "Arrogance and genocide." mode.

But you just said that they know what's gonna happen!
You said that the catalyst tells them to stand down because They aren't needed any more!
You're contradicting your own logic!

Theres a MASSIVE difference between "Stop indoctrinating people" and "I'm about to let Shepard kill you"... Isn't there?

Sovereign nevewr says that he is doing what he is to save you, does he?
Hell, he even uses an army of synthetics, the very thing the reapers are supposed to "save" organics from, to take over the citadel!

Star child wasn't part of the story back then, but even so there's nothing to say the catalyst didn't tell Sovereign to get himself some help to claim the citadel and that the geth were a lot easier to recruit en masse quickly.

Oh, so Starchild didn't exist at that point?
Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.

And with this reaper thing: If starchild says to the reapers that they should stop indoctrinating people, why doesn't he alltogether tell them to TEMPORARILY stop the attack on earth? He doesn't! He also doesn't tell the reapers to stop attacking sword fleet, even so far as that you can see them fighting outside the final chamber!
And even IF the starchild really says that they should stop indoctrinating people... Do you really think that the reapers would obey without any question? After all, they are A.I.s, aren't they? a literal combination of an organic and synthetic being, meaning that they have more free will than for example EDI should, and you're telling me that they're all mindless slaves?

Sorry, but the reapers I know are not like this!

[KevShep]

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

 As I have said in alot of other post. Shepards is repeating what the catalyst is saying the moment he says them.

[EpyonX3]

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

[SubAstris]

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

To get this interpretation, you have to assume quite a lot, whilst taking it literally (which makes sense) requires sounder and fewer assumptions

[NM_Che56]

SubAstris wrote...


There's no obligation on the one contesting the claim to disprove the claim, rather for the one proposing it to provide considerable and sound evidence

There's no obligation to be in a thread that asks one to explain what they see in IT that is inadequate either, yet here you are.

Modifié par Master Che, 13 avril 2012 - 08:11 .

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What a masterclass in overanalysis!

Please, enlighten us all oh most wise and all-knowing SubAstris.  You seem to have the "correct" answers and the rest of us IT supporters are just too stupid to figure it out. 

All I've seen you do so far is point at what people are saying and basically say "well, that's dumb."  Yet you offer nothing of value to the discussion. 

Yes, because all I have done is attack people on their intelligence... they are stupid so they believe in indoctrination....

I actually find IT interesting, just I don't personally believe it has enough evidence going for it and each piece of evidence can be explained without IT with fewer and less shaky assumptions. I don't think indoc. theorists are necessarily stupid, just wrong.

Please explain.  I mean no sarcasm.  That's why I made the thread.  Tell us your doubts. If you make good and compelling arguments then let them stand.

There's no obligation on the one contesting the claim to disprove the claim, rather for the one proposing it to provide considerable and sound evidence

Then you aren't in the right thread, read the OP.

[rachellouise]

She could have been, several of her team were indoctrinated, when studying indoctrination. Maybe it was by suggestion of the reapers she was helping make this army of Krogan. Too little info to tell.

[The man of myth]

Here's the scoop: Indoctrination is what happened. The clues are all there if you choose to see them. All of you Negative Nellies need to take the stick out of your butts and jump on board. You will look foolish when BW releases the ending DLC (free please, fingers x'd). This is a first in video game storytelling, and you all were lucky enough to be apart of it.

[NM_Che56]

SubAstris wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

To get this interpretation, you have to assume quite a lot, whilst taking it literally (which makes sense) requires sounder and fewer assumptions

Yep.  If you read the codex, it talks about psychological conditioning and "suggestions".  I think hitting you in your dreams when you're most vulnerable is pretty insidious.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...



Where in the game is this described?

Seriously. Are you playing the same game we are?

Modifié par balance5050, 13 avril 2012 - 08:13 .

[NM_Che56]

The man of myth wrote...

Here's the scoop: Indoctrination is what happened. The clues are all there if you choose to see them. All of you Negative Nellies need to keep and open mind.

Clarified. LOL

[KevShep]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

[SubAstris]

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

To get this interpretation, you have to assume quite a lot, whilst taking it literally (which makes sense) requires sounder and fewer assumptions

Yep.  If you read the codex, it talks about psychological conditioning and "suggestions".  I think hitting you in your dreams when you're most vulnerable is pretty insidious.

Yet there is little evidence that there is a Reaper-induced dream, nor does it get around my main point that IT requires more assumptions than a literal meaning (for this example, at least)

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

What a masterclass in overanalysis!

Please, enlighten us all oh most wise and all-knowing SubAstris.  You seem to have the "correct" answers and the rest of us IT supporters are just too stupid to figure it out. 

All I've seen you do so far is point at what people are saying and basically say "well, that's dumb."  Yet you offer nothing of value to the discussion. 

Yes, because all I have done is attack people on their intelligence... they are stupid so they believe in indoctrination....

I actually find IT interesting, just I don't personally believe it has enough evidence going for it and each piece of evidence can be explained without IT with fewer and less shaky assumptions. I don't think indoc. theorists are necessarily stupid, just wrong.

Please explain.  I mean no sarcasm.  That's why I made the thread.  Tell us your doubts. If you make good and compelling arguments then let them stand.

There's no obligation on the one contesting the claim to disprove the claim, rather for the one proposing it to provide considerable and sound evidence

Then you aren't in the right thread, read the OP.

Regardless, I am correct :happy:

[balance5050]

rachellouise wrote...

She could have been, several of her team were indoctrinated, when studying indoctrination. Maybe it was by suggestion of the reapers she was helping make this army of Krogan. Too little info to tell.

Well, then the reapers helped cure the genophage...

[NM_Che56]

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

Ghostly images are in the dream (codex) and so are oily shadows (the Rachni Queen's description of indoctrination in ME 1).  THAT is what sold me the most.  Those damned shadows looked like oil when I first saw them!  They also look like that oily aura around reaper stuff too!

[EpyonX3]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

if the dreams were signs of indoctrination, the signs would not disappear upon waking. He can't be being indoctrinated, then not, then being indoctrinated, etc. It would be continuous. Which is why people just give in.

This is even in the very definition of Indoctrination. You need prolonged exposure before you start feeling its effects. Benezia and Rana repeat this to you in ME1.

It's the part of the definition that theorists overlook.

And Shepard didn't have prolonged exposure to Reaper tech?

Contact with Soverign.
Contact with the derelict reaper in ME2. 
Contact with the proto reaper in ME2. 
Two days exposure to Object Rho in Arrival DLC. 
EDI is part reaper tech.  (maybe not enough for Indoc, I don't know)
Contact with Reapers throughout ME2.  Ronnoch, The planet where you find the Rachni is full of Reaper tech)

How much exposure does it take?  I don't know.  They don't give exact figures as to how long.  But Shepard has seen a fair amount of it.  At least enough for it to be a possibility in my opinion. 

Not talking about exposure to reaper tech. Talking about signs of indoctrination. Different.

The only way to be indoctrinated is exposure to Reaper tech. 

EVERYONE in the series that is exposed to reaper tech goes through indoctrination.

I cite  - The Derelict Reaper and Object Rho as examples.  Everyone single person exposed to those were lost to indoctrination. 

Which include Shepard's squadmates, which admire his strong will, suggesting that they have weaker will power. Why were they not indoctrinated and sent to sabotage Shepard. He has great trust for his crew, you'd never see a shot in the back of the head coming from Ashley or Liara would he?

[ajm317]

KevShep wrote...
 As I have said in alot of other post. Shepards is repeating what the catalyst is saying the moment he says them.

This is a common trope in SciFi and fantasy.  Off the top of my head Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood used it during conversations with the Truth, who is similar in a lot of ways to the Starchild.

The Starchild clearly has some method of reaching into Shepards mind, or at least allowing Shepard to project convenient images onto his interpretation of the Starchild.  The Starchild does, afterall, appear to Shepard as the kid who got blown up in the shuttle.  The Starchild never met that kid, he must have gotten the image from Shepard.

Given that the Starchild is already in Shepards head to pull comfortable images for himself it is not surprising that he would also pull comfortable sounds, like Shepards own voice.  The prescence of Shepards own voice in the Starchild is no more problematic for a literal interpretation of the ending than the prescence of the child itself.

Modifié par ajm317, 13 avril 2012 - 08:20 .

[KevShep]

ajm317 wrote...

KevShep wrote...
 As I have said in alot of other post. Shepards is repeating what the catalyst is saying the moment he says them.

This is a common trope in SciFi and fantasy.  Off the top of my head Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood used it during conversations with the Truth, who is similar in a lot of ways to the Starchild.

The Starchild clearly has some method of reaching into Shepards mind, or at least allowing Shepard to project convenient images onto his interpretation of the Starchild.  The Starchild does, afterall, appear to Shepard as the kid who got blown up in the shuttle.  The Starchild never met that kid, he must have gotten the image from Shepard.

Given that the Starchild is already in Shepards head to pull comfortable images for himself it is not surprising that he would also pull comfortable sounds, like Shepards own voice. 

That sounds like indoctrination to me if it were the ME lore...oh wait...it is ME!

[llbountyhunter]

moving over here are we?.. anyone agaisnt IT please adress these points. (these are its strongests points imo)

1. shepard awakes on earth
2. color switches from paragon/regenade in the end
3. after anderson get shot, a ledge magically appears so he can rest- the map changes like in a dream
4. the last reaper you see is harbinger

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 13 avril 2012 - 08:25 .