1057 réponses à ce sujet

[ajm317]

KevShep wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

KevShep wrote...
 As I have said in alot of other post. Shepards is repeating what the catalyst is saying the moment he says them.

This is a common trope in SciFi and fantasy.  Off the top of my head Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood used it during conversations with the Truth, who is similar in a lot of ways to the Starchild.

The Starchild clearly has some method of reaching into Shepards mind, or at least allowing Shepard to project convenient images onto his interpretation of the Starchild.  The Starchild does, afterall, appear to Shepard as the kid who got blown up in the shuttle.  The Starchild never met that kid, he must have gotten the image from Shepard.

Given that the Starchild is already in Shepards head to pull comfortable images for himself it is not surprising that he would also pull comfortable sounds, like Shepards own voice. 

That sounds like indoctrination to me if it were the ME lore...oh wait...it is ME!

Again, it might be consistent with IT, but it doesn't prove it.  It's no more difficult to explain Shepards voice in an actual physical Starchild than it is to explain it's child like appearance.

[EpyonX3]

Master Che wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

Ghostly images are in the dream (codex) and so are oily shadows (the Rachni Queen's description of indoctrination in ME 1).  THAT is what sold me the most.  Those damned shadows looked like oil when I first saw them!  They also look like that oily aura around reaper stuff too!

The Rachni queen's quote is taken out of context. She was refering to the war and what her people sounded like when they were being slaughtered. Their mothods of communication are represented as songs. The sounds of them dieing are the oily shadows. No where in that conversation is the word reaper or indoctrination mentioned.

So I don't know where people get the Rachni thing from.

[balance5050]

KevShep wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

KevShep wrote...
 As I have said in alot of other post. Shepards is repeating what the catalyst is saying the moment he says them.

This is a common trope in SciFi and fantasy.  Off the top of my head Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood used it during conversations with the Truth, who is similar in a lot of ways to the Starchild.

The Starchild clearly has some method of reaching into Shepards mind, or at least allowing Shepard to project convenient images onto his interpretation of the Starchild.  The Starchild does, afterall, appear to Shepard as the kid who got blown up in the shuttle.  The Starchild never met that kid, he must have gotten the image from Shepard.

Given that the Starchild is already in Shepards head to pull comfortable images for himself it is not surprising that he would also pull comfortable sounds, like Shepards own voice. 

That sounds like indoctrination to me if it were the ME lore...oh wait...it is ME!

Oh dang, I thought this was the Halo forum!

[estebanus]

The man of myth wrote...

Here's the scoop: Indoctrination is what happened. The clues are all there if you choose to see them. All of you Negative Nellies need to take the stick out of your butts and jump on board. You will look foolish when BW releases the ending DLC (free please, fingers x'd). This is a first in video game storytelling, and you all were lucky enough to be apart of it.

Look, I support IT, but I do not support people who act totally fanatically and bring no proof along with their statements, ok?

[DrSpoonbender]

llbountyhunter wrote...

moving over here are we?.. anyone agaisnt IT please adress these points.

1. shepard awakes on earth
2. color switches from paragon/regenade in the end
3. after anderson get shot, a ledge magically appears so he can rest- the map changes like in a dream
4. the last reaper you see is harbinger

If Shepard awakes on Earth (suggesting everything after beam was a dream) aren’t we still stuck with the issue of defeating the Reapers?

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...


The Rachni queen's quote is taken out of context. She was refering to the war and what her people sounded like when they were being slaughtered. Their mothods of communication are represented as songs. The sounds of them dieing are the oily shadows. No where in that conversation is the word reaper or indoctrination mentioned.

So I don't know where people get the Rachni thing from.

She describes "oily shadows" you sharaka!

Modifié par balance5050, 13 avril 2012 - 08:24 .

[balance5050]

DrSpoonbender wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

moving over here are we?.. anyone agaisnt IT please adress these points.

1. shepard awakes on earth
2. color switches from paragon/regenade in the end
3. after anderson get shot, a ledge magically appears so he can rest- the map changes like in a dream
4. the last reaper you see is harbinger

If Shepard awakes on Earth (suggesting everything after beam was a dream) aren’t we still stuck with the issue of defeating the Reapers?

Pretty much, you make up your own ending or 

[EpyonX3]

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

What suggestions though? The dreams during the game or the last 10 minutes? When do these suggestions start and what where they?

If they had that much control over Shepards mind to make this whole world seem real, why give him a way out? They already have him if he's even listening to the suggestions.

[rachellouise]

Don't know. There were a lot of 'failures' , or maybe didn't work out as they had hoped, like another war..if reapers have hopes..

[estebanus]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

Ghostly images are in the dream (codex) and so are oily shadows (the Rachni Queen's description of indoctrination in ME 1).  THAT is what sold me the most.  Those damned shadows looked like oil when I first saw them!  They also look like that oily aura around reaper stuff too!

The Rachni queen's quote is taken out of context. She was refering to the war and what her people sounded like when they were being slaughtered. Their mothods of communication are represented as songs. The sounds of them dieing are the oily shadows. No where in that conversation is the word reaper or indoctrination mentioned.

So I don't know where people get the Rachni thing from.

The rachni queen describes the war as "sour yellow notes followed by silence", however she describes indoctrination as "black oily shadows"

[Galifreya]

SubAstris wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In destroy, he doesn't come into contact with the Reapers per se, he just destroys them., while in control and synthesis you are actively touching them, coming into contact with Reaper tech that alters you and potentially everyone in the galaxy. Hence, why Shephard's eyes change for those choices, nothing to do with indoctrination.

Here's the major question then: Do Joker's (and your companions) eyes change to these 'Indoctrinated' eyes  in Control or Sythesis?

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


The Rachni queen's quote is taken out of context. She was refering to the war and what her people sounded like when they were being slaughtered. Their mothods of communication are represented as songs. The sounds of them dieing are the oily shadows. No where in that conversation is the word reaper or indoctrination mentioned.

So I don't know where people get the Rachni thing from.

She describes "oily shadows" you sharaka!

You're missing the point. That's like saying, "Shepard say the word Indoctrinated once, that means Shepard is indoctrinated!"

Taking words out of context is a terrible way to try to prove anything.

[KevShep]

ajm317 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

KevShep wrote...
 As I have said in alot of other post. Shepards is repeating what the catalyst is saying the moment he says them.

This is a common trope in SciFi and fantasy.  Off the top of my head Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood used it during conversations with the Truth, who is similar in a lot of ways to the Starchild.

The Starchild clearly has some method of reaching into Shepards mind, or at least allowing Shepard to project convenient images onto his interpretation of the Starchild.  The Starchild does, afterall, appear to Shepard as the kid who got blown up in the shuttle.  The Starchild never met that kid, he must have gotten the image from Shepard.

Given that the Starchild is already in Shepards head to pull comfortable images for himself it is not surprising that he would also pull comfortable sounds, like Shepards own voice. 

That sounds like indoctrination to me if it were the ME lore...oh wait...it is ME!

Again, it might be consistent with IT, but it doesn't prove it.  It's no more difficult to explain Shepards voice in an actual physical Starchild than it is to explain it's child like appearance.

The fact that the last 10 minutes of the game seem out of place (or like a dream) with the rest of the series is proof that it was a dream mixed with the fact that you CAN hear shepard in the catalyst voice and mixed with the fact that he/she IS dreaming throught alot of the game does in fact prove it!

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...



What suggestions though? The dreams during the game or the last 10 minutes? When do these suggestions start and what where they?

If they had that much control over Shepards mind to make this whole world seem real, why give him a way out? They already have him if he's even listening to the suggestions.

The star kids suggestion foo!

[SubAstris]

llbountyhunter wrote...

moving over here are we?.. anyone agaisnt IT please adress these points.

1. shepard awakes on earth
2. color switches from paragon/regenade in the end
3. after anderson get shot, a ledge magically appears so he can rest- the map changes like in a dream
4. the last reaper you see is harbinger

1) It is possible, although it may seem unlikely, that Shephard does survive, seeing from BW's comments and interview with Weekes (don't know how reliable). Also at the breath scene, cables similar to those on the Citadel are there which are not visible anywhere around the beam, and the rubble looks like cut material which couldn't have come from Earth (as no buildings were nearby).
2) The colour doesn't switch because Blue doesn't symbolise Paragon in this case (shown by the fact that TIM would choose that option, I think BW knew that it would cause confusion so added that scene in), and it is the contrast to the Red of destroy (and of course in cultures around the world, red is the colour of destruction). IT is not needed.
3) Bioware thought the addition of a ledge there would good artistically, and they are right, it makes a great scene. Can't imagine it being as good if he has flat on the floor, because he is meant to be reminiscing about everywhere, and him looking out is a beautiful scene
4) I don't follow your argument...

[ajm317]

llbountyhunter wrote...

moving over here are we?.. anyone agaisnt IT please adress these points. (these are its strongests points imo)

1. shepard awakes on earth
2. color switches from paragon/regenade in the end
3. after anderson get shot, a ledge magically appears so he can rest- the map changes like in a dream
4. the last reaper you see is harbinger

1.  It's not clear that he/she does.  The shot is very tight and provides little visual context.  It ccould be London.  It could be the Citadel.  Although the Citadel exhibits large scale destruction in the ending it doesn't completely disintigrate.  Large pieces are left intact.  Shepard could be in one of them.

2.  Nothing to explain.  Not sure why you think this is a point in IT's favor.  Nothing even get's "switched" as far as I can see.

3.  The map in this location changes constantly.  The Starchild makes entire walkways appear.  Anderson comments on the maps shifting nature.  The Starchild, being the Citadel itself, can just do that apparently.

4.  Again, nothing to explain.  I don't see how this is a point in IT's favor.

[jijeebo]

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]jijeebo wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]ajm317 wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

errmm... Yes they do.

[/quote]

In the past they have because the Reapers goal is to destroy the advanced organics in the galaxy and indoctrination gives them valuable agents.

If the ending is taken at face value there is no reason to assume indoctrination still occurs.  That is no longer the Starchilds goal.

[/quote]

So what you're saying is that the reapers actually Want to be defeated?

[/quote]

He's saying that once Shep meets the catalyst, it has no reason to indoctrinate people anymore because indoctrination is a component of a solution that no longer works.

The reapers bow to the will of the catalyst, and during the ending it deemed them no longer necessary.

[/quote]
So now you're saying that the reapers would let themselves be killed because the catalyst tells them to?
That pretty much defies his own logic: "The created will always rebel against the creators..."

[/quote]

It's not like they know whats about to potentially happen do they?

And even if they did, theres no indication that the reapers are advanced enough to display independent thought that I am aware of... Seeing as they never ever ever ever question anything throughout the whole series, and they very much seem to be programmed for eternal "Arrogance and genocide." mode.
[/quote]

But you just said that they know what's gonna happen!
You said that the catalyst tells them to stand down because They aren't needed any more!
You're contradicting your own logic!
[/quote]

Theres a MASSIVE difference between "Stop indoctrinating people" and "I'm about to let Shepard kill you"... Isn't there?

[quote]
Sovereign nevewr says that he is doing what he is to save you, does he?
Hell, he even uses an army of synthetics, the very thing the reapers are supposed to "save" organics from, to take over the citadel!

[/quote]

Star child wasn't part of the story back then, but even so there's nothing to say the catalyst didn't tell Sovereign to get himself some help to claim the citadel and that the geth were a lot easier to recruit en masse quickly.

[/quote]
Oh, so Starchild didn't exist at that point?
Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.
[/quote]

Starchild didn't exist back then because he wasn't an intended part of the story. They can't go back and re-write ME1 to include him, so plot holes are born.


[quote]
And with this reaper thing: If starchild says to the reapers that they should stop indoctrinating people, why doesn't he alltogether tell them to TEMPORARILY stop the attack on earth? He doesn't! He also doesn't tell the reapers to stop attacking sword fleet, even so far as that you can see them fighting outside the final chamber!
And even IF the starchild really says that they should stop indoctrinating people... Do you really think that the reapers would obey without any question? After all, they are A.I.s, aren't they? a literal combination of an organic and synthetic being, meaning that they have more free will than for example EDI should, and you're telling me that they're all mindless slaves?

Sorry, but the reapers I know are not like this!

[/quote]

The reapers kill all advanced civilisations every 50k years just because the Starchild says so without question so yes... They would do exactly what he told them to.

And yeah, I'm continually told that the reapers are super smart and amazing... But after Star Jars arrival they become nothing more than mindless pawns in an intergalactic game of chess. 

[Tirian Thorn]

This whole thing was deliberate. They knew the ending would be polarizing, etc.

So based on that you can look at it a couple ways:

1) They planned to end the discussion by releasing “something” to clarify the ending
a. DLC
b. A press release


2) They planned to let the discussion continue until people give up in frustration.


3) They were never going to clarify anything. But they didn’t expect the discussion & backlash to get so heated and now they’re back-peddling.
Which of those seems most likely given the track record of Bioware? [/quote]

4) Time was short, they (or one person) rushed out a 10 minute ending to a trilogy that involves +150 hours of gameplay because they already delayed once and they needed the game out asap.


Seriously, what happens more in the entertainment industry? Rushed products or carefully and meticolously planned future content releases?

Well both actually.

So was Bioware lazy, sloppy or rushed. Or did they expect some backlash but not they're rushing because of the magnitude.

If they planned to clarify the ending in the future, I think they dropped the ball and they've waited too long.

Modifié par Tirian Thorn, 13 avril 2012 - 08:30 .

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


The Rachni queen's quote is taken out of context. She was refering to the war and what her people sounded like when they were being slaughtered. Their mothods of communication are represented as songs. The sounds of them dieing are the oily shadows. No where in that conversation is the word reaper or indoctrination mentioned.

So I don't know where people get the Rachni thing from.

She describes "oily shadows" you sharaka!

You're missing the point. That's like saying, "Shepard say the word Indoctrinated once, that means Shepard is indoctrinated!"

Taking words out of context is a terrible way to try to prove anything.

Nah, its a descrption of a detail of indoctrination, we see this detail when you're being indoctrinated.

[rachellouise]

Gallifreya wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In destroy, he doesn't come into contact with the Reapers per se, he just destroys them., while in control and synthesis you are actively touching them, coming into contact with Reaper tech that alters you and potentially everyone in the galaxy. Hence, why Shephard's eyes change for those choices, nothing to do with indoctrination.

Here's the major question then: Do Joker's (and your companions) eyes change to these 'Indoctrinated' eyes  in Control or Sythesis?

control/synthesis takes Shepard's life energy, or whatever. If they alll jumped in too, they would more than likely end up the same

Modifié par rachellouise, 13 avril 2012 - 08:31 .

[KevShep]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

What suggestions though? The dreams during the game or the last 10 minutes? When do these suggestions start and what where they?

If they had that much control over Shepards mind to make this whole world seem real, why give him a way out? They already have him if he's even listening to the suggestions.

The suggestions are control and synthesis.

[EpyonX3]

estebanus wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

Ghostly images are in the dream (codex) and so are oily shadows (the Rachni Queen's description of indoctrination in ME 1).  THAT is what sold me the most.  Those damned shadows looked like oil when I first saw them!  They also look like that oily aura around reaper stuff too!

The Rachni queen's quote is taken out of context. She was refering to the war and what her people sounded like when they were being slaughtered. Their mothods of communication are represented as songs. The sounds of them dieing are the oily shadows. No where in that conversation is the word reaper or indoctrination mentioned.

So I don't know where people get the Rachni thing from.

The rachni queen describes the war as "sour yellow notes followed by silence", however she describes indoctrination as "black oily shadows"

No she doesn't mention anything about Indoctrination. You guys are making that up. The quote is, "We don't know what happened in the war, we only heard discourdence, songs of oliy shadows..." She then goes on to say that a tone from space produced sour yello notes that silenced the songs one by one. That was the end of the rachni war when they were blasted to peices.

[rachellouise]

The kid also suggests destroy. We can't follow all suggestions.

[ajm317]

KevShep wrote...
The fact that the last 10 minutes of the game seem out of place (or like a dream) with the rest of the series is proof that it was a dream mixed with the fact that you CAN hear shepard in the catalyst voice and mixed with the fact that he/she IS dreaming throught alot of the game does in fact prove it!

It does not, but believe what you want.

Again, all these facts are consistent with IT, but they certainly do not rule out a literal interpretation.

[EpyonX3]

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

What suggestions though? The dreams during the game or the last 10 minutes? When do these suggestions start and what where they?

If they had that much control over Shepards mind to make this whole world seem real, why give him a way out? They already have him if he's even listening to the suggestions.

The suggestions are control and synthesis.

But where they being suggested before the end? And what happens when the EMS is low and you only have the destroy option?