1057 réponses à ce sujet

[estebanus]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

KevShep wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


Admittedly, these are all for short times (except for Arrival), but regardless there is actually little narrative evidence for Shephard's indoctrination. Remember also that he knows the threats of indoctrination better than most people

How do you know this? ITs clear that this is I.T. with things like the dreams and shepards voice along side the catalyst's voice.

What exactly do the dreams show except for Shephard's guilt? They make perfect sense without resorting to IT

Guilt, doubt and fear are methods the Reapers use to indoctrinate. Fear is the mindkiller (Dune).

Where in the game is this described?

In the codex it says that the way the reapers indoctrinate you is to "trick" you into giving into there 'suggestions" and that is what the kid is doing.

What suggestions though? The dreams during the game or the last 10 minutes? When do these suggestions start and what where they?

If they had that much control over Shepards mind to make this whole world seem real, why give him a way out? They already have him if he's even listening to the suggestions.

The suggestions are control and synthesis.

But where they being suggested before the end? And what happens when the EMS is low and you only have the destroy option?

Answer to question Nr.1: Yes, they were. By two of the main antagonists in the Mass Effect series: Saren and TIM.
Saren constantly states in ME1 how he is "the apex of evolution, the combination of man and machine, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither.
TIM says through all of ME3 how control is the only means of survival. control of the reapers, adn of Shepard, if necessary.

Question Nr.2: There have been multiple answers up for debate for this in the IT-thread.
One is that Harbinger ultimately sees that Shepard will fail, and thus doesn't want to waste any resources on indoctrinating a lost cause. 

Another one is that Harbinger sees that Shepard is already set in his/her way, meaning that it can't change Shepard's mind either way.

Then there is another one that states, that since Shepard destroyed the collector base, Harbinger knows that Shepard anyway wouldn't go to any length to defeat the reapers, since s/he decided to destroy the galaxy's potentially greatest weapon instead of using it.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


But where they being suggested before the end? And what happens when the EMS is low and you only have the destroy option?

With low EMS you choose destroy because they don't need to indoctrinate you because because your Crucible sucks and your fleet is tiny.

No with low ems everything gets destroyed, even troops on the ground. They all get wiped out by the red wave, this wave comes from the point where shepard is standing, which got to him as well, killing him. When you have enough EMS this wave does not kill organic life in its path. Therefore, Shepard survives and can get rescued, hence the breathe scene.

Yes, that is the face value representation, I still don't beleive that Shep could survive this:

He's survived worse. I already responded to the first time you posted this. This doesn't validate IT. Nor does it make my point invalid.

[IronSabbath88]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


No she doesn't mention anything about Indoctrination. You guys are making that up. The quote is, "We don't know what happened in the war, we only heard discourdence, songs of oliy shadows..." She then goes on to say that a tone from space produced sour yello notes that silenced the songs one by one. That was the end of the rachni war when they were blasted to peices.

Wrong...She says that you are fighting the ones responsable, and then she says that when the time comes her voice will join with yours in the fight.

Nope, she said was referring to the current events. She's fighting those responsible for capturing her and running experiments on them. To return the favor of releasing her, she'd help you later.

"You are not in harmony with those who seek to control us."

Dude, that facility was under Reaper control. Come on.

[llbountyhunter]

jijeebo wrote...

yarpenthemad21 wrote...

1. hackett calling shep after opening citadel arms. how hackett know that shepard is alive, is in control room?
2. why harbinger fly away?
3. why devs adds tree brenches to after beam scene? they made map, then after beam they add trees for what reason? rushed? but rushed content mostly mean that something havent been added or deleted from copied content.
4. breathing shepard in stone rubble in only one ending.
5. why shepard in synthesis and controll ending turn into husk like thing?
6. kid in the first mission on earth. why anderson didnt notice him, why he run through closed door and in final scene where he seems to be invisible to soldiers and ppl around.
its beginning of the game. not the "rushed" part. this part of game have only two versions (with kaidan and with ashley), its even part of the demo. its should be polished and ideal. so why this kid, one of the main characters of this part is that strange or "bad made"?

I'm sorry but all of those can be attributed to bad writing and lack of polish. The only exception is number 4, which is because Shepard gets disintegrated in the other two endings so he can't wake up. I can only think they did this so Control isn't the obvious "best" ending for everyone.

so thats it? "bioware is lazy" is your main and only argument? and I thought WE were the ones grasping at straws


you dont play many bioware games do you?

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 13 avril 2012 - 08:49 .

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


Yes, that is the face value representation, I still don't beleive that Shep could survive this:

He's survived worse. I already responded to the first time you posted this. This doesn't validate IT. Nor does it make my point invalid.

No he hasn't.

Modifié par balance5050, 13 avril 2012 - 08:51 .

[llbountyhunter]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


No she doesn't mention anything about Indoctrination. You guys are making that up. The quote is, "We don't know what happened in the war, we only heard discourdence, songs of oliy shadows..." She then goes on to say that a tone from space produced sour yello notes that silenced the songs one by one. That was the end of the rachni war when they were blasted to peices.

Wrong...She says that you are fighting the ones responsable, and then she says that when the time comes her voice will join with yours in the fight.

Nope, she said was referring to the current events. She's fighting those responsible for capturing her and running experiments on them. To return the favor of releasing her, she'd help you later.

"You are not in harmony with those who seek to control us."

Dude, that facility was under Reaper control. Come on.

witness the power of biowars real-world indocternation...... they know they submited and picked control.....

[Tirian Thorn]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

The only hole in the theory I see is why did the reapers let it get that far?

they purposely indoctranate powerful figures to make things easier.

what takes less effort?

contenuing to wage the war, and spend hundred of years fighting resistense...

or, indoctrinate shepard (the beacon of the movement itself) and have him lead everone into the reapers grasp?

But why not just indoctrinate Shepherd right out of the gate?

well shepard is supposed to have extremely strong willpower (stated by liara since me1),  this is the very reason why you might be able to  resist it.

I don't have time to cite sources but I believe it is stated that rushing indoctrination produces husks. 

Slow, methodical indoctrination like Benezia and Saren allow the reapers to control the person subtily without affecting their decision making and intelligence. 

[SubAstris]

yarpenthemad21 wrote...

1. hackett calling shep after opening citadel arms. how hackett know that shepard is alive, is in control room?
2. why harbinger fly away?
3. why devs adds tree brenches to after beam scene? they made map, then after beam they add trees for what reason? rushed? but rushed content mostly mean that something havent been added or deleted from copied content.
4. breathing shepard in stone rubble in only one ending.
5. why shepard in synthesis and controll ending turn into husk like thing?
6. kid in the first mission on earth. why anderson didnt notice him, why he run through closed door and in final scene where he seems to be invisible to soldiers and ppl around.
its beginning of the game. not the "rushed" part. this part of game have only two versions (with kaidan and with ashley), its even part of the demo. its should be polished and ideal. so why this kid, one of the main characters of this part is that strange or "bad made"?

1) I would hazard a guess and say it is poor writing. It is possible that somehow Hackett wasn't contacted (he has a lot on his plate ATM) or that Anderson contacted him to say both him and Shephard were alive although that seems unlikely. BW needed to show the player that the Crucible wasn't working, so used Hackett, forgetting that he thinks that Shephard is dead.
2) Because he has just decimated the entire allied force coming to the beam. Harbinger sees everyone lying in a heap dead, his job is done and therefore goes somewhere where he can be more useful.
The bigger question is, why didn't the Reapers just shut off the beam?
3) The trees, if you look, are there before the beam bit.
4) That's because Shephard can only possibly survive in this ending
5) Because he is coming into contact with Reaper tech, the fact that he will die is explained by the Catalyst
6) Anderson didn't notice him because he was in the other room, looking for other routes out, and with there being a lot of noise outside, it is not surprising that he might not hear Shephard's conversation. Even so, he is not needed in the scene at all because the aim of the scene is to increase Shephard's guilt. The presence of Anderson would be unnecessary and less effective.

[IronSabbath88]

The general consesus seems to indicate that Shepard is inhuman and can survive anything.

He's not a super hero, and he's not fully synthetic.

[KevShep]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


No she doesn't mention anything about Indoctrination. You guys are making that up. The quote is, "We don't know what happened in the war, we only heard discourdence, songs of oliy shadows..." She then goes on to say that a tone from space produced sour yello notes that silenced the songs one by one. That was the end of the rachni war when they were blasted to peices.

Wrong...She says that you are fighting the ones responsable, and then she says that when the time comes her voice will join with yours in the fight.

Nope, she said was referring to the current events. She's fighting those responsible for capturing her and running experiments on them. To return the favor of releasing her, she'd help you later.

"You are not in harmony with those who seek to control us."

The conversation was about something soured the songs of our mothers in the rachni war.

It was about the rachni war and that meant it was Sovereign which means that it was about Indoctrination!

[estebanus]

SubAstris wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In destroy, he doesn't come into contact with the Reapers per se, he just destroys them., while in control and synthesis you are actively touching them, coming into contact with Reaper tech that alters you and potentially everyone in the galaxy. Hence, why Shephard's eyes change for those choices, nothing to do with indoctrination.

Here's the major question then: Do Joker's (and your companions) eyes change to these 'Indoctrinated' eyes  in Control or Sythesis?

I have just looked at the endings again, for the Synthesis option Joker's eyes do actually change. As for Control, you wouldn't expect them to change anyway

It's true that their eyes change in synthesis, but that's because thy're now partly synthetic. The Iris color changes to green.
However, those are not indoctrinated eyes that you see like TIM'S and  Saren's, it's only the iris color that has changed, nothing else.

[ajm317]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


Yes, that is the face value representation, I still don't beleive that Shep could survive this:

He's survived worse. I already responded to the first time you posted this. This doesn't validate IT. Nor does it make my point invalid.

No he hasn't.

He survived death.  I think that qualifies as worse.

Besides, in that shot the ring and the arms are clearly still intact.  It's entirely possible that there is some safe part of the Citadel and that Shepard is in it. 

[EpyonX3]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


No she doesn't mention anything about Indoctrination. You guys are making that up. The quote is, "We don't know what happened in the war, we only heard discourdence, songs of oliy shadows..." She then goes on to say that a tone from space produced sour yello notes that silenced the songs one by one. That was the end of the rachni war when they were blasted to peices.

Wrong...She says that you are fighting the ones responsable, and then she says that when the time comes her voice will join with yours in the fight.

Nope, she said was referring to the current events. She's fighting those responsible for capturing her and running experiments on them. To return the favor of releasing her, she'd help you later.

"You are not in harmony with those who seek to control us."

Dude, that facility was under Reaper control. Come on.

I know that. But the comment about the oily shadows was in response to Shepards inquiry about the rachni war, not how it feels to be indoctrinated. The two points are being blended together and taken out of context to fit the theory.

Do you understand?

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...



1) I would hazard a guess and say it is poor writing. It is possible that somehow Hackett wasn't contacted (he has a lot on his plate ATM) or that Anderson contacted him to say both him and Shephard were alive although that seems unlikely. BW needed to show the player that the Crucible wasn't working, so used Hackett, forgetting that he thinks that Shephard is dead.
2) Because he has just decimated the entire allied force coming to the beam. Harbinger sees everyone lying in a heap dead, his job is done and therefore goes somewhere where he can be more useful.
The bigger question is, why didn't the Reapers just shut off the beam?
3) The trees, if you look, are there before the beam bit.
4) That's because Shephard can only possibly survive in this ending
5) Because he is coming into contact with Reaper tech, the fact that he will die is explained by the Catalyst
6) Anderson didn't notice him because he was in the other room, looking for other routes out, and with there being a lot of noise outside, it is not surprising that he might not hear Shephard's conversation. Even so, he is not needed in the scene at all because the aim of the scene is to increase Shephard's guilt. The presence of Anderson would be unnecessary and less effective.

So what your're saying is.... 

[IronSabbath88]

"You are not in harmony with those who seek to control us" I wasn't aware organics could control the Rachni.

[llbountyhunter]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


Yes, that is the face value representation, I still don't beleive that Shep could survive this:

He's survived worse. I already responded to the first time you posted this. This doesn't validate IT. Nor does it make my point invalid.

No he hasn't.

if your talking about him re-entering in me2..... he had him helmet+amor on, they said he wouldnt of had survived if not for his helmet. 


they also spent TWO YEARS fixing him up.

so here (with no armor) he survinged a major explosion, ANOTHER re-entry (earth is also more massive than the other planet), and can start breathing right away?

[Galifreya]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

well going by dream interpretation, running in slow motion represents stress/feeling powerless

Things are often backwards in Dreams to I think. Something about our brain reverses the image our eyes see. This would explain why there is backwards text all around the ending.

Or more likely BW got a tab lazy and couldn't be bothered to turn the text the right way, hoping no one would notice.

If you look at where the text is written, it is on a "pylon" that frequently appears through out the game including multiplayer, it often has different text on it but the text is always frontwards. It would need to be deliberatly placed reversed.

Aaaaah, I'll have to keep an eye out. 8O

[rachellouise]

 

1. hackett calling shep after opening citadel arms. how hackett know that shepard is alive, is in control room?
2. why harbinger fly away?
3. why devs adds tree brenches to after beam scene? they made map, then after beam they add trees for what reason? rushed? but rushed content mostly mean that something havent been added or deleted from copied content. 
4. breathing shepard in stone rubble in only one ending. 
5. why shepard in synthesis and controll ending turn into husk like thing?
6. kid in the first mission on earth. why anderson didnt notice him, why he run through closed door and in final scene where he seems to be invisible to soldiers and ppl around.
its beginning of the game. not the "rushed" part. this part of game have only two versions (with kaidan and with ashley), its even part of the demo. its should be polished and ideal. so why this kid, one of the main characters of this part is that strange or "bad made"? 

1. Who else would have opened the arms, and where from?
2. Maybe he was eavesdropping, and thought he had taken everyone out, thanks to major coates.
3.  Haven't seen/noticed
4. The other two require Shepard to sacrifice themself...so that's why...
5. Took Shepard's 'life energy', or whatever you want to call it
6. You have stopped talking to the kid, and looked away when Anderson returns. The door was not 'closed', it's lock was red, like several malfunctioning doors.

[SubAstris]

estebanus wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In destroy, he doesn't come into contact with the Reapers per se, he just destroys them., while in control and synthesis you are actively touching them, coming into contact with Reaper tech that alters you and potentially everyone in the galaxy. Hence, why Shephard's eyes change for those choices, nothing to do with indoctrination.

Here's the major question then: Do Joker's (and your companions) eyes change to these 'Indoctrinated' eyes  in Control or Sythesis?

I have just looked at the endings again, for the Synthesis option Joker's eyes do actually change. As for Control, you wouldn't expect them to change anyway

It's true that their eyes change in synthesis, but that's because thy're now partly synthetic. The Iris color changes to green.
However, those are not indoctrinated eyes that you see like TIM'S and  Saren's, it's only the iris color that has changed, nothing else.

Because Joker isn't indoctrinated

[EpyonX3]

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


No she doesn't mention anything about Indoctrination. You guys are making that up. The quote is, "We don't know what happened in the war, we only heard discourdence, songs of oliy shadows..." She then goes on to say that a tone from space produced sour yello notes that silenced the songs one by one. That was the end of the rachni war when they were blasted to peices.

Wrong...She says that you are fighting the ones responsable, and then she says that when the time comes her voice will join with yours in the fight.

Nope, she said was referring to the current events. She's fighting those responsible for capturing her and running experiments on them. To return the favor of releasing her, she'd help you later.

"You are not in harmony with those who seek to control us."

The conversation was about something soured the songs of our mothers in the rachni war.

It was about the rachni war and that meant it was Sovereign which means that it was about Indoctrination!

No, the war comment came as a response to Shepards inquiry about the war. The queen was an egg at the time so it doesn't know what happened and why, just that she could hear here people die. It had nothing to do with Soveriegn.

[KevShep]

EpyonX3 wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


No she doesn't mention anything about Indoctrination. You guys are making that up. The quote is, "We don't know what happened in the war, we only heard discourdence, songs of oliy shadows..." She then goes on to say that a tone from space produced sour yello notes that silenced the songs one by one. That was the end of the rachni war when they were blasted to peices.

Wrong...She says that you are fighting the ones responsable, and then she says that when the time comes her voice will join with yours in the fight.

Nope, she said was referring to the current events. She's fighting those responsible for capturing her and running experiments on them. To return the favor of releasing her, she'd help you later.

"You are not in harmony with those who seek to control us."

Dude, that facility was under Reaper control. Come on.

I know that. But the comment about the oily shadows was in response to Shepards inquiry about the rachni war, not how it feels to be indoctrinated. The two points are being blended together and taken out of context to fit the theory.

Do you understand?

Actually in ME1 she(the dead asari) is still taking about how something or someone soured the songs of there mothers and her only visions were of oily shadows!

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



1) I would hazard a guess and say it is poor writing. It is possible that somehow Hackett wasn't contacted (he has a lot on his plate ATM) or that Anderson contacted him to say both him and Shephard were alive although that seems unlikely. BW needed to show the player that the Crucible wasn't working, so used Hackett, forgetting that he thinks that Shephard is dead.
2) Because he has just decimated the entire allied force coming to the beam. Harbinger sees everyone lying in a heap dead, his job is done and therefore goes somewhere where he can be more useful.
The bigger question is, why didn't the Reapers just shut off the beam?
3) The trees, if you look, are there before the beam bit.
4) That's because Shephard can only possibly survive in this ending
5) Because he is coming into contact with Reaper tech, the fact that he will die is explained by the Catalyst
6) Anderson didn't notice him because he was in the other room, looking for other routes out, and with there being a lot of noise outside, it is not surprising that he might not hear Shephard's conversation. Even so, he is not needed in the scene at all because the aim of the scene is to increase Shephard's guilt. The presence of Anderson would be unnecessary and less effective.

So what your're saying is.... 

I'm offering constructive comment on the questions. I do not dabble in magic

[jijeebo]

llbountyhunter wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

yarpenthemad21 wrote...

1. hackett calling shep after opening citadel arms. how hackett know that shepard is alive, is in control room?
2. why harbinger fly away?
3. why devs adds tree brenches to after beam scene? they made map, then after beam they add trees for what reason? rushed? but rushed content mostly mean that something havent been added or deleted from copied content.
4. breathing shepard in stone rubble in only one ending.
5. why shepard in synthesis and controll ending turn into husk like thing?
6. kid in the first mission on earth. why anderson didnt notice him, why he run through closed door and in final scene where he seems to be invisible to soldiers and ppl around.
its beginning of the game. not the "rushed" part. this part of game have only two versions (with kaidan and with ashley), its even part of the demo. its should be polished and ideal. so why this kid, one of the main characters of this part is that strange or "bad made"?

I'm sorry but all of those can be attributed to bad writing and lack of polish. The only exception is number 4, which is because Shepard gets disintegrated in the other two endings so he can't wake up. I can only think they did this so Control isn't the obvious "best" ending for everyone.

so thats it? "bioware is lazy" is your main and only argument? and I thought WE were the ones grasping at straws


you dont play many bioware games do you?

I never said lazy, I said rushed. The endings are obviously a mess, otherwise IT wouldn't exist.

And I don't see how noticing a lack of polish and poor writing is "grasping at straws".

And I don't see how the last comment is relevant to anything, like at all.

[llbountyhunter]

llbountyhunter wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


No she doesn't mention anything about Indoctrination. You guys are making that up. The quote is, "We don't know what happened in the war, we only heard discourdence, songs of oliy shadows..." She then goes on to say that a tone from space produced sour yello notes that silenced the songs one by one. That was the end of the rachni war when they were blasted to peices.

Wrong...She says that you are fighting the ones responsable, and then she says that when the time comes her voice will join with yours in the fight.

Nope, she said was referring to the current events. She's fighting those responsible for capturing her and running experiments on them. To return the favor of releasing her, she'd help you later.

"You are not in harmony with those who seek to control us."

Dude, that facility was under Reaper control. Come on.

witness the power of biowars real-world indocternation...... they know they submited and picked control.....

[IronSabbath88]

The Rachni are generally a peaceful race. This is made evident by the Queen herself. They were indoctrinated, hence why they started the war in the first place.