1057 réponses à ce sujet

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Also for Shepard surviving I have a theory for that. The crucible destroys the synthetics in his body and either A) The synthetics were just so integrated that they couldn't be removed by normal means, the advanced tech of the crucible was able to safely eliminate the synthetics leaving Shepard in one piece. Not the child never says the crucible will kill him. It merely says "even you are partly synthetic" This is a very open ended comment so it's safe to believe it's possible for the crucible not to kill him.

My other theory was since the crucible is an object able to master dark energy and space/time manipulation. By removing Shepard's synthetics it was able to bring Shepard body to a time before he needed the synthetics to survive. Restoring his body to that of ME1 status. THe reapers were capable of extreme genetic reconstruction without the use of an ancient dark matter machine so it's entirely feasible that the crucible is capable of such organic manipulation and that it could in fact to this for Shepard.

That alone is a valid reason to me why the indoctrination theory isn't for me. I can still find logical counterparts to most arguments to IT.

[ZackG312]

SubAstris wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Katherine wrote...

Katherine wrote...

 The reason I don't like the IT is because gameplay wise, it shows extremely poor design. I mentioned this in another thread, but challenges in games are either strategy based, or skill based. To "beat" the indoctrination at the end of the game, the player would need to be aware of how to use their strategy or skill to do so. There is no obvious indication that you are being indoctrinated in the game, so if IT is true, the player is unable to use strategy or skill to beat it, which leads to bad linear gaming. 

Now, people have mention that with Morinth it is capable to "lose" the game too, but Morinth is actually a good example of the player being aware of Shepard being controlled. When you are doing Samara's loyalty mission, Samara tells you that Morinth can influence you, and this happens you don't have enough paragon or renegade points. You as a player know what's going on, but your Shepard can't "break" Morinth's control until Samara shows up. This is good gameplay you can use strategy (by getting enough paragon or renegade points) to break Morinth's control. And if you don't break free from her control, you still see what happens afterwards with Samara showing up. 

Having there only be one "right" choice at the end of the game without proper set up for player strategy would simply be terrible level design. It's like those underground sections in the old Mario games where any of the three pipes could send you to another world... except unbeknownst to you two of the pipes automatically kill you, and only one of them works. :/

*bump*

No one wants to debate the merits of IT gameplay? 

Unless the game design was to not include dramatic irony. Us knowing that the attempts to indoctrinate Shepard were in full swing breaks the immersion illusion.  We ARE Shepard.  We can't BE Shepard if our awareness of events transcends his or her own.

That just shows that indoctrination doesn't work as a game mechanic. The reader needs to know what is going on at the end, where the plot is meant to be resolved. Not making it obvious makes it bad storytelling, simple as that

You are Shepard in Mass Effect he doesnt know he is being indoctrinated neither should you, just like we didnt things until Shepard found out.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

She said nothing of the mass killing of her race, it was about why her people attacked. I think its you that need to go back and look at what was said and when. Your right there is nothing hidden here so why are you saying it was exo geni that the rachni are going to fight for them being resposable for souring the songs of there mothers....Exo Geni was not around in the rachni wars!

"Their ways of perception, thinking and communications seem to be
different from that of other races, and based upon a synesthetic
perception of sound as both sound and color. Rachni communication is
geared towards frequencies beyond normal sonic range, and also makes use
of a form of mind-to-mind information transfer - telepathy.

They regard
speech and thought as forms of music, as shown by the strange metaphors
used when attempting to communicate, for example, "songs the color of
oily shadow". The speech patterns used by them in such occasions are
also unusual; "When we speak, one moves all". They refer to their manner
of communication as "singing", which soothes and nurtures their young,
and this appears to colour their entire psychology - for example, the
rachni speak of death as "the great silence", and refer to their
homeworld as the "singing planet".

The rachni ability to genetically
share knowledge across generations makes queens a vast repository of
information."

Source: http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rachni

The shadows at the end signify indoctrination, it's a mind control thing as signified by shepard rubbing his temple at 1:50 inthis video:

http://www.youtube.c...N3xtUu44#t=105s

[ShepardTheHopeful]

The Protheans wrote...

There are no holes in the Indoctrination Theory.
You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise, I wish you the best in life and hope you can seek closure to your problems.

There are tons of holes in the Indoctrination Theory. You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise. I wish you the best in life and hope you can see closure to your problems. 

[KevShep]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

She said nothing of the mass killing of her race, it was about why her people attacked. I think its you that need to go back and look at what was said and when. Your right there is nothing hidden here so why are you saying it was exo geni that the rachni are going to fight for them being resposable for souring the songs of there mothers....Exo Geni was not around in the rachni wars!

"Their ways of perception, thinking and communications seem to be
different from that of other races, and based upon a synesthetic
perception of sound as both sound and color. Rachni communication is
geared towards frequencies beyond normal sonic range, and also makes use
of a form of mind-to-mind information transfer - telepathy.

They regard
speech and thought as forms of music, as shown by the strange metaphors
used when attempting to communicate, for example, "songs the color of
oily shadow". The speech patterns used by them in such occasions are
also unusual; "When we speak, one moves all". They refer to their manner
of communication as "singing", which soothes and nurtures their young,
and this appears to colour their entire psychology - for example, the
rachni speak of death as "the great silence", and refer to their
homeworld as the "singing planet".

The rachni ability to genetically
share knowledge across generations makes queens a vast repository of
information."

Source: http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rachni

They are hive mind...this has already been known.  what are you saying?

Modifié par KevShep, 13 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[yarpenthemad21]

rachellouise wrote...


Yep the doors actually open, not literally closed. It is just the lock is red. Could just be a malfuntioning door



 

is there any example in me series where red mean open but malfuntioning? dont remember any. i thing there was always  red =closed or sealed  yellow=can be hacked green=open.
but yeah, in can be bad writting. in first tutorial. strange, they should test this scene bilion times, this was part of the demo...
but i still dont get bad writting as "adding bad content". if they were lazy they could just dont make this running kid. why they do it?

[Falloutwarfare]

@rachellouise mabee he wouldnt see the yellow as he aint a rachni but he does definately see inky shadows when he is in the dreams which is often used as evidence of indoc theory.

[llbountyhunter]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

The Protheans wrote...

There are no holes in the Indoctrination Theory.
You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise, I wish you the best in life and hope you can seek closure to your problems.

There are tons of holes in the Indoctrination Theory. You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise. I wish you the best in life and hope you can see closure to your problems. 

can you please state REAL counter-arguments, and not "lack of polish" or something similar?

[Galifreya]

Falloutwarfare wrote...

@rachellouise but the rachni queen does state (i think this is correct but correct me if im wrong) that during the rachni wars there was a sour yellow note in their song and also something about oily shadows that caused them to go to war...... now the yellow note could easily reference the reapers who when harbringer is controlling the collector general, the generals eyes light up yellow like a huskified chrismas tree.
As for the oily shadows where have we seen them.......... the dream sequences.

your move sir =D

Nice shot!

I'm being genuine. Referencing ME2 dialogue.

[EpyonX3]

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


One more fault of the theory. It proves speculation with further speculation.


Who said the citadel plunged to earth? There is little to no energy required for an object to stay in orbit. It's assumed that the citadel fell to earth, adding to the impossibility of shepards survival.

It's also assumed that life support and gravity would be turned off because of damage to the citadel.

We don't know these things to be true, but what proves that there was an atmosphere and gravity are right in front of you in the breathe scene.

That all just makes I.T. more likely though. 

No it doesn't. That just means that Bioware, once again, bent the rules of physics to accomidate the story. How do you hear guns and explosions going off in space?

They wanted me to perceive what I want, I choose I.T.

You choosing I.T. doesn't make you right.

choosing IT based off evidence (that reamin true to the ME world).... or denying IT because a video game doesnt conform to "real-life" physics..... hmmm.

That's not what i'm implying. In fact it's reverse. Bioware not conforming to "real-life" physics is confirmation of I.T.

The evidence for I.T. is shaky and mostly speculation.

[Wabajakka]

I think my version of IDT is a little more plausible to be implemented into Extended Cut, take a look, tell me what you think here. I don't believe the ending was a complete hallucination.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 13 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[EpyonX3]

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

She said nothing of the mass killing of her race, it was about why her people attacked. I think its you that need to go back and look at what was said and when. Your right there is nothing hidden here so why are you saying it was exo geni that the rachni are going to fight for them being resposable for souring the songs of there mothers....Exo Geni was not around in the rachni wars!

"Their ways of perception, thinking and communications seem to be
different from that of other races, and based upon a synesthetic
perception of sound as both sound and color. Rachni communication is
geared towards frequencies beyond normal sonic range, and also makes use
of a form of mind-to-mind information transfer - telepathy.

They regard
speech and thought as forms of music, as shown by the strange metaphors
used when attempting to communicate, for example, "songs the color of
oily shadow". The speech patterns used by them in such occasions are
also unusual; "When we speak, one moves all". They refer to their manner
of communication as "singing", which soothes and nurtures their young,
and this appears to colour their entire psychology - for example, the
rachni speak of death as "the great silence", and refer to their
homeworld as the "singing planet".

The rachni ability to genetically
share knowledge across generations makes queens a vast repository of
information."

Source: http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rachni

They are hive mind...this has already been known.  what are you saying?

If that's what you got from it then I'm done.

[jijeebo]

llbountyhunter wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

The Protheans wrote...

There are no holes in the Indoctrination Theory.
You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise, I wish you the best in life and hope you can seek closure to your problems.

There are tons of holes in the Indoctrination Theory. You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise. I wish you the best in life and hope you can see closure to your problems. 

can you please state REAL counter-arguments, and not "lack of polish" or something similar?

Lack of polish is just as valid as anything related to IT theory, if not more so because it has actual evidence to back it up i.e. Avenger fever.

[llbountyhunter]

EpyonX3 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


One more fault of the theory. It proves speculation with further speculation.


Who said the citadel plunged to earth? There is little to no energy required for an object to stay in orbit. It's assumed that the citadel fell to earth, adding to the impossibility of shepards survival.

It's also assumed that life support and gravity would be turned off because of damage to the citadel.

We don't know these things to be true, but what proves that there was an atmosphere and gravity are right in front of you in the breathe scene.

That all just makes I.T. more likely though. 

No it doesn't. That just means that Bioware, once again, bent the rules of physics to accomidate the story. How do you hear guns and explosions going off in space?

They wanted me to perceive what I want, I choose I.T.

You choosing I.T. doesn't make you right.

choosing IT based off evidence (that reamin true to the ME world).... or denying IT because a video game doesnt conform to "real-life" physics..... hmmm.

That's not what i'm implying. In fact it's reverse. Bioware not conforming to "real-life" physics is confirmation of I.T.

The evidence for I.T. is shaky and mostly speculation.

mass effect never used 100% real-life..... and IT relys ONLY on ME based physics, documents, records, and codexes...... soooo.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 13 avril 2012 - 09:37 .

[Falloutwarfare]

Gallifreya wrote...

Falloutwarfare wrote...

@rachellouise but the rachni queen does state (i think this is correct but correct me if im wrong) that during the rachni wars there was a sour yellow note in their song and also something about oily shadows that caused them to go to war...... now the yellow note could easily reference the reapers who when harbringer is controlling the collector general, the generals eyes light up yellow like a huskified chrismas tree.
As for the oily shadows where have we seen them.......... the dream sequences.

your move sir =D

Nice shot!

I'm being genuine. Referencing ME2 dialogue.

im confused as to what you meen

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

She said nothing of the mass killing of her race, it was about why her people attacked. I think its you that need to go back and look at what was said and when. Your right there is nothing hidden here so why are you saying it was exo geni that the rachni are going to fight for them being resposable for souring the songs of there mothers....Exo Geni was not around in the rachni wars!

"Their ways of perception, thinking and communications seem to be
different from that of other races, and based upon a synesthetic
perception of sound as both sound and color. Rachni communication is
geared towards frequencies beyond normal sonic range, and also makes use
of a form of mind-to-mind information transfer - telepathy.

They regard
speech and thought as forms of music, as shown by the strange metaphors
used when attempting to communicate, for example, "songs the color of
oily shadow". The speech patterns used by them in such occasions are
also unusual; "When we speak, one moves all". They refer to their manner
of communication as "singing", which soothes and nurtures their young,
and this appears to colour their entire psychology - for example, the
rachni speak of death as "the great silence", and refer to their
homeworld as the "singing planet".

The rachni ability to genetically
share knowledge across generations makes queens a vast repository of
information."

Source: http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rachni

The shadows at the end signify indoctrination, it's a mind control thing as signified by shepard rubbing his temple at 1:50 inthis video:

http://www.youtube.c...N3xtUu44#t=105s

I'd say it signified his head being invaded by TIM not indoctrination. His body was under control but his mind clearly wasn't. And we see similar effects when Saren turns into a husk in ME1.

[ajm317]

llbountyhunter wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

The Protheans wrote...

There are no holes in the Indoctrination Theory.
You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise, I wish you the best in life and hope you can seek closure to your problems.

There are tons of holes in the Indoctrination Theory. You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise. I wish you the best in life and hope you can see closure to your problems. 

can you please state REAL counter-arguments, and not "lack of polish" or something similar?

"Lack of polish" is a real counter argument.

Personally I think the  current state of the ending is a result of the ending being written entirely by two writers, whereas the rest of the series was the result of collaboration and review by the entire team.  We've had a few leaks and comments to the effect that this is what happened.  Assuming that the ending was written "differently" I don't think it's surprising that the quality would drop off.  There are plot holes and inconsistencies at various points throughout the series, there are just a lot more at the end.  There is also indication, with the Dark Energy ending and things like it, that the ending was a last minute addition, put together in the last few months of production.

Even if IT were absolutely what they intended the ending is still a mess in my opinion, it's just a different kind of mess.  It's Vanilla Sky instead of Plan 9 From Outerspace, both terrible movies in my opinion, but for different reasons.

Modifié par ajm317, 13 avril 2012 - 09:40 .

[KevShep]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

She said nothing of the mass killing of her race, it was about why her people attacked. I think its you that need to go back and look at what was said and when. Your right there is nothing hidden here so why are you saying it was exo geni that the rachni are going to fight for them being resposable for souring the songs of there mothers....Exo Geni was not around in the rachni wars!

"Their ways of perception, thinking and communications seem to be
different from that of other races, and based upon a synesthetic
perception of sound as both sound and color. Rachni communication is
geared towards frequencies beyond normal sonic range, and also makes use
of a form of mind-to-mind information transfer - telepathy.

They regard
speech and thought as forms of music, as shown by the strange metaphors
used when attempting to communicate, for example, "songs the color of
oily shadow". The speech patterns used by them in such occasions are
also unusual; "When we speak, one moves all". They refer to their manner
of communication as "singing", which soothes and nurtures their young,
and this appears to colour their entire psychology - for example, the
rachni speak of death as "the great silence", and refer to their
homeworld as the "singing planet".

The rachni ability to genetically
share knowledge across generations makes queens a vast repository of
information."

Source: http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rachni

They are hive mind...this has already been known.  what are you saying?

If that's what you got from it then I'm done.

You have not been specific this whole time. you keep going from Exo Geni to them no being indoctrinated to the conversation about something that your not making clear.

If its not about indoctrination then what was the conversation about between shepard and the queen?

[estebanus]

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

She said nothing of the mass killing of her race, it was about why her people attacked. I think its you that need to go back and look at what was said and when. Your right there is nothing hidden here so why are you saying it was exo geni that the rachni are going to fight for them being resposable for souring the songs of there mothers....Exo Geni was not around in the rachni wars!

"Their ways of perception, thinking and communications seem to be
different from that of other races, and based upon a synesthetic
perception of sound as both sound and color. Rachni communication is
geared towards frequencies beyond normal sonic range, and also makes use
of a form of mind-to-mind information transfer - telepathy.

They regard
speech and thought as forms of music, as shown by the strange metaphors
used when attempting to communicate, for example, "songs the color of
oily shadow". The speech patterns used by them in such occasions are
also unusual; "When we speak, one moves all". They refer to their manner
of communication as "singing", which soothes and nurtures their young,
and this appears to colour their entire psychology - for example, the
rachni speak of death as "the great silence", and refer to their
homeworld as the "singing planet".

The rachni ability to genetically
share knowledge across generations makes queens a vast repository of
information."

Source: http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rachni

They are hive mind...this has already been known.  what are you saying?

If that's what you got from it then I'm done.

There you have it.

there was more than only 1 rachni queen!

[rachellouise]

Falloutwarfare wrote...

@rachellouise mabee he wouldnt see the yellow as he aint a rachni but he does definately see inky shadows when he is in the dreams which is often used as evidence of indoc theory.

Yep, but if the colours/oily shadows etc. are different communications to the rachni, and shepard doesn't see speech etc. as that, why would the shadows have the same meaning?

[llbountyhunter]

jijeebo wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

The Protheans wrote...

There are no holes in the Indoctrination Theory.
You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise, I wish you the best in life and hope you can seek closure to your problems.

There are tons of holes in the Indoctrination Theory. You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise. I wish you the best in life and hope you can see closure to your problems. 

can you please state REAL counter-arguments, and not "lack of polish" or something similar?

Lack of polish is just as valid as anything related to IT theory, if not more so because it has actual evidence to back it up i.e. Avenger fever.

not really.... whats more logical...

bioware a producer whos managed even greater game twists than the one we are discusing now (KOTOR) suddenly got drunk/high when making the last five minutes of the game...

or actually made a good ending with alot of clues that are pretty obvious, so that the twist can be seen?

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 13 avril 2012 - 09:42 .

[EpyonX3]

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


One more fault of the theory. It proves speculation with further speculation.


Who said the citadel plunged to earth? There is little to no energy required for an object to stay in orbit. It's assumed that the citadel fell to earth, adding to the impossibility of shepards survival.

It's also assumed that life support and gravity would be turned off because of damage to the citadel.

We don't know these things to be true, but what proves that there was an atmosphere and gravity are right in front of you in the breathe scene.

That all just makes I.T. more likely though. 

No it doesn't. That just means that Bioware, once again, bent the rules of physics to accomidate the story. How do you hear guns and explosions going off in space?

They wanted me to perceive what I want, I choose I.T.

You choosing I.T. doesn't make you right.

choosing IT based off evidence (that reamin true to the ME world).... or denying IT because a video game doesnt conform to "real-life" physics..... hmmm.

That's not what i'm implying. In fact it's reverse. Bioware not conforming to "real-life" physics is confirmation of I.T.

The evidence for I.T. is shaky and mostly speculation.

mass effect never used 100% real-life..... and IT relys ONLY on ME based physics, documents, records, and codexes...... soooo.

"mass effect never used 100% real-life." And I agree! which I've stated in this chain.

I.T. takes only peices of these codexes, records and documents that would fit in and discards those that don't. In some cases, those items are taken out of context.

Some of those points can also be proven wrong by simply playing the game. I never said is was 100% false. But it's no where near 100% true.

[CerealWar]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than s Shepard that slacked (in any way).

I hope you realize that this explanation makes very, very little sense.  "We have more to fear, so......now we'll give him a THIRD option.  That'll trick him!  He wasn't going to submit before, but now he will!"

A high EMS could mean that Shepard is difficult to bull****. So the Reapers throw out Synthesis, the most tempting of the three choices.

It's also the most ludicrous of the three choices so my idea kind of falls apart. I don't know, you got me D: It should be noted that your EMS dictates whether your squad survives or not. That doesn't make much sense either since I don't see how assets would affect who gets hit by Harby's beam. Unless more assets means a higher amount of troops making the charge to the conduit, leading to more targets for Harbinger to deal with, making it less likely that Harby would target your squad. Meh, it's most likely just a game mechanic used to reward the player for putting more time into doing sidequests and playing as a straight paragon or renegade. Blurp

[jijeebo]

llbountyhunter wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

The Protheans wrote...

There are no holes in the Indoctrination Theory.
You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise, I wish you the best in life and hope you can seek closure to your problems.

There are tons of holes in the Indoctrination Theory. You have my sympathy and thoughts if you think otherwise. I wish you the best in life and hope you can see closure to your problems. 

can you please state REAL counter-arguments, and not "lack of polish" or something similar?

Lack of polish is just as valid as anything related to IT theory, if not more so because it has actual evidence to back it up i.e. Avenger fever.

not really.... what more logical...

bioware a producer whos managed even greater game twists than the one we are discusing now (KOTOR) suddenly got drunk/high when making the last five minutes of the game...

or actually made a good ending with alot of clues that are pretty obvious, so that the twist can be seen?

Or Casey Hudson and Mac Walters had a massive ego trip, locked themselves away from the rest of the writers and made the endings all on their own... And completely mucked it up and claimed artistic integrity.

[llbountyhunter]

EpyonX3 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


One more fault of the theory. It proves speculation with further speculation.


Who said the citadel plunged to earth? There is little to no energy required for an object to stay in orbit. It's assumed that the citadel fell to earth, adding to the impossibility of shepards survival.

It's also assumed that life support and gravity would be turned off because of damage to the citadel.

We don't know these things to be true, but what proves that there was an atmosphere and gravity are right in front of you in the breathe scene.

That all just makes I.T. more likely though. 

No it doesn't. That just means that Bioware, once again, bent the rules of physics to accomidate the story. How do you hear guns and explosions going off in space?

They wanted me to perceive what I want, I choose I.T.

You choosing I.T. doesn't make you right.

choosing IT based off evidence (that reamin true to the ME world).... or denying IT because a video game doesnt conform to "real-life" physics..... hmmm.

That's not what i'm implying. In fact it's reverse. Bioware not conforming to "real-life" physics is confirmation of I.T.

The evidence for I.T. is shaky and mostly speculation.

mass effect never used 100% real-life..... and IT relys ONLY on ME based physics, documents, records, and codexes...... soooo.

"mass effect never used 100% real-life." And I agree! which I've stated in this chain.

I.T. takes only peices of these codexes, records and documents that would fit in and discards those that don't. In some cases, those items are taken out of context.

Some of those points can also be proven wrong by simply playing the game. I never said is was 100% false. But it's no where near 100% true.

but nobody has named in-game proof that counters IT! all I hear is "lack of polish" and bioware is not known for not "polishing" their games.