1057 réponses à ce sujet

[ShepardTheHopeful]

balance5050 wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

I can think of multiple logical counters to the indoctrination theory. Two of which are floating somewhere in this thread a few pages back including how Shepard could've survived.

But mainly i'll discuss star child and the idea of the dreams being Shepard's descent into indoctrination.

I do not see this as the case. The child is real. I state this for a few reasons. One the child is at a corner of the vent he could have easily turned and when Shepard turned his head he had more than enough time to get away.

Anderson never asks Shepard who exactly he's talking to which indicates Anderson did not notice the child nor that Shepard was talking at all. It's understandable he's in a building that could come down any second trying to hack open a door while giant robot aliens slaughter millions of his men and friends/family. It's safe to say he was focused on other things rather than what Shepard was saying.

Shepard's dreams represent the child because the child is the first person he couldn't actually save that he had a chance to. In most situations you make a choice yes. You chose to kill someone or save them and you chose to kill one to save another (example: Killing the counsel to hold your forces back for sovereign.) This child was the first that Shepard had a chance to save didn't and then watched his mistake unfold. (child go boom) this is the first time Shepard fails to save someone (you know assuming you didn't kill everyone in ME2). And he dreams constantly about the child as the bodies pile up the shadows represent the people that he couldn't save millions on Palavan, Thessia, Earth, etc.

Another reason I feel the child is real is that the shuttle didn't help him up granted. But there was no other civilian around besides the child and they made sure to not take off until that kid was on the ship. Why wait if the child wasn't real? Why not just take off?

I understood Casey's and Mac's vision. I just think it's god awful! But I don't believe that the Indoctrination theory is as sound as everyone says. This is just one example that I explain logically. I'd be more than happy to explain more should any other questions that arise towards me.

To be honest it's not seriously space magic...but it's still a horrible ending for other reasons. But all of this is my opinion of course.

The starchild itself is just the old fashion sci-fi cliche of "I picked a form most suitible for you"

Indeed, the child could have been real in the first scene, doesn't disprove I.T.

"This child was the first that Shepard had a chance to save didn't "

False, many could have died because of your actions, at least Kaiden or Ashley..

Very true but like I said it's just one counter argument of many I'm just not sure where exactly the IT theory is standing now adays what they consider fact and what's fiction. I just remember the space child and the child on earth not being real was always a serious argument a little while back. I'd be happy to answer any other question. 

As for Kaiden or Ashley granted you feel horrible for letting them die but it had to be done you saved one or the other you had no time to save both. I chose to kill Ashley because she was lower in rank and thus less important (plus she was Ashley and until ME3 I didn't care if she died because I didn't care about her) This child is the one that gives that thought. "I could've saved him I should've reached for him and taken him with me he would've lived" The others you can logically excuse it was him or me it was them or all utilitarianism etc. But the child has no defense he was there he could've been saved. He wasn't. 

But like I said it's an opinion if you have another point to the IT I would be happy to debate it with my counter argument. It's just hard to throw everything in there when idk what's what in the theory anymore. For all I know some people could still believe Harbringers laser had indoctrination powers. 

[Myskal1981]

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

[EpyonX3]

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

The holes are not hard to find.

http://www.youtube.c...?v=lqCFkTEAM-8.

[Ariq]

Zweipersona wrote...

I actually considered Shepard getting indoctrinated as I played through the game. The problem is, there's no real solid hints of it. What does indoctrination look like? 

Whispers and oily shadows are mentioned. Sort of like you experienced in the dream sequences.

If you played the game with an open mind, the only time you think 'Uh oh, indoctrination' is when facing the Illusive man, and you're being told you can't move, and there's these odd little shadow things on your screen.

No, the dream sequences made me think of Indoctrination, as did awakening in a dream state after being hit with Harbinger's beam. 

There is no way human evolution could keep up with a collective conscious that can labor without fatigue, or rest.

This is an unproven assertion. I see no reason to take it as a given. The chaotic evolution of organics may move in directions unpredictable by any synthetic intelligence. Biological singularity may be reached in some other fashion (biotics?) 

But if they decide to wage war against their creators, they would undoubtedly win...

Undoubtedly? Legion says the Geth will be destroyed without the Reaper upgrades. 

Does 'control' really offer you control of the Reapers?

No. According to IT, the offers are a lie. Most everything Starchild (ahem, Harbinger) says is a lie. Why would they offer you control? They just laughed off TIM gaining control.

This continues with the 'destroy' idea too. Assume what the Catalyst tells you is correct.

Why would you assume that the Catalyst told you anything that was correct? He is the Lord of the Reapers. The villain behind the villains. The puppet master behind Harbinger's throne if he is not Harbinger himself. 
 

Wouldn't you, after breaking the 'indoctrination', be shown, the REAL console, to activate the Crucible?

Because you haven't made it to the Citadel yet?

[balance5050]

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

The holes are not hard to find.

http://www.youtube.c...?v=lqCFkTEAM-8.

So having to turn on free fly camera mode to show things that the player was never supposed to see is easy to find?? The cables they show in that video don't have the same texture as theShepard alive scene.

[dreman9999]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

from oil shadows was only an example to how they conmunicate and has nothing to do with anything.

Second you did (in a way) mention Exo Geni when I said that she says shepard is fighting the ones responsible for souring the songs of there mothers, You were saying that it was not sovereign/reapers(indoctrination) and then you did not say what it was and the only thing other then the reapers that it could be is Exo Geni.

Third if you run into an asari in ME2 then she states it more clearly that it was the reapers. Any time that the songs of our mothers comes up it is shepard asking about the war!...not the ones that captured her.

QFT

The oily shadows thing comes up when you ask the queen about the original Rachni War. She says they only heard songs of discordance, the color of oily shadows.

www.youtube.com/watch Start at 3:35 for that line of questions.

In ME2 you meet an Asari on Illium who is working as an agent for the Rachni. She tells you that the Queen believes you(shepard) are fighting the ones responsible for the Rachni war, and pledges her help.

www.youtube.com/watch Start at 3:15 for that line

The Rachni were indoctrinated by Reapers and made to start the war. The Queen discribes that experience as songs the color of oily shadows.

PS: Exogeni because of the Thorian? The queen was actually held by Binary Helix. In case thats what you were thinking.

"he tells you that the Queen believes you(shepard) are fighting the ones responsible for the Rachni war, and pledges her help."

I don't think that's what she says. The quote is "we know you seek those who soured our mother's songs."

I agree that this sounds like Indoctrination, but Shepard isn't seeking reapers in ME2. He's seeking collectors, at which point (I'm guessing here) the link between them and the reapers weren't clear.

Oh my god......How are there people who still don't understand that the collecter are just tools for the reapers. They're one in the same. Collectors are prothean Husk.

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 avril 2012 - 11:48 .

[Myskal1981]

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

[Myskal1981]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

The holes are not hard to find.

http://www.youtube.c...?v=lqCFkTEAM-8.

What I meant was that IT-supporters can always say "This isn't real." or "Shep was not indoctrinated at this point.", so you cannot really grab them. I do see holes ingame, but none of those will be accepted by IT-supporters.

[dreman9999]

STEEEEVE wrote...

I don't like IT because
1.) It's unfalsifiable
2.) The devs have made numerous statements that they want the ending to stand on its own, not be a metaphor
3.) I don't like fan fiction, and that's literally all IT is. BAD fan fiction at that.
4.) Indoctrination theory makes Shepard's story incomplete, which is exactly the opposite of what ME3 is. It's the conclusion of Shepard's story. IT people will say "well bioware lied about all this other stuff" sorry, but that doesn't fly. Their word still has more authority towards lore than your fan fiction.


Basically, no matter what you want to believe, it could not be more clear that the Developers did not make Mass Effect 3 with the idea of ending it like Indoctrination says it ends.  If it's not Bioware's story, it's not 'real' in the sense of the universe.  The end.

But you are ignoring alot of facts about indoctrination.

fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reaper tech. 

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.
This  from bennezia
http://www.youtube.c...jiKYmhJg#t=222s


this is from the crazied salarian.


This is from Dr.Kenson.
http://www.youtube.c...yP8768r6w#t=30s
Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis



'If Rana survived
Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, she will appear in an ANN Report on
indoctrination. She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and
then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices"
in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators."



Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

The reseachers on project rho in Arrival also taked about strange dreams  when they were being indoctrinated.

http://www.youtube.c...tYTITiTw#t=249s

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

Modifié par dreman9999, 13 avril 2012 - 11:58 .

[balance5050]

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

He wanted an ending that no one would forget.

[OdanUrr]

Myskal1981 wrote...

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

Beats me.

[jijeebo]

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

LOTS OF ANGER AND CONFUSION SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE 

[dreman9999]

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

They get the game out on time, make a twist in their game, and give themselves more time to make an ending.

Modifié par dreman9999, 14 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

You're telling me that hearing whispers in a dream is proof of indoctrination? It's a (censored) dream for god's sake! Stranger things have happened in my dreams! If you listen to the audio files, they're just your companions re-playing some of their dialogue lines in a much lower voice.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 14 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[balance5050]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

You're telling me that hearing whispers in a dream is proof of indoctrination? It's a f***ing dream for god's sake! Stranger things have happened in my dreams! If you listen to the audio files, they're just your companions re-playing some of their dialogue lines in a much lower voice.

Whispers are a symptom of reaper indoctrination,

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

You're telling me that hearing whispers in a dream is proof of indoctrination? It's a (censored) dream for god's sake! Stranger things have happened in my dreams! If you listen to the audio files, they're just your companions re-playing some of their dialogue lines in a much lower voice.

Read facts 2, 4,5, and 6....Then we can discuse fact 7 all you want.

Also....
 

Modifié par dreman9999, 14 avril 2012 - 12:06 .

[Myskal1981]

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

He wanted an ending that no one would forget.

Who? Casey Hudson or Mac Walters? Those two have bosses and they had to explain their bosses what they planned.

Sorry, but I do not have a single sound business reason as to why you would offer a meta gaming experience in the first place. If Bioware had released an ending DLC like a couple of weeks after release, I would have called them genius. But coming out after nearly a month announcing something for the summer...

[Myskal1981]

jijeebo wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

LOTS OF ANGER AND CONFUSION SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE 

You see, and that is why you would not attempt it. It is just to risky. If IT was true, Bioware would expect this backlash to happen. And there is no reason to risk this.

[balance5050]

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

He wanted an ending that no one would forget.

Who? Casey Hudson or Mac Walters? Those two have bosses and they had to explain their bosses what they planned.

Sorry, but I do not have a single sound business reason as to why you would offer a meta gaming experience in the first place. If Bioware had released an ending DLC like a couple of weeks after release, I would have called them genius. But coming out after nearly a month announcing something for the summer...

They want to let the content speak for itself, they were rushed by EA so they needed more time to get the ending right.

[balance5050]

Myskal1981 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

LOTS OF ANGER AND CONFUSION SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE 

You see, and that is why you would not attempt it. It is just to risky. If IT was true, Bioware would expect this backlash to happen. And there is no reason to risk this.

No risk, they've already almost outsold ME2, it's a DLC game now.

[dreman9999]

Myskal1981 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

LOTS OF ANGER AND CONFUSION SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE 

You see, and that is why you would not attempt it. It is just to risky. If IT was true, Bioware would expect this backlash to happen. And there is no reason to risk this.

What's going on right now is not a backlash?

[IronSabbath88]

There's a lot more whispers than just your companions...

[Myskal1981]

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

You're telling me that hearing whispers in a dream is proof of indoctrination? It's a (censored) dream for god's sake! Stranger things have happened in my dreams! If you listen to the audio files, they're just your companions re-playing some of their dialogue lines in a much lower voice.

Read facts 2, 4,5, and 6....Then we can discuse fact 7 all you want.

Also....
 

If Shepard was already in the process of being indoctrinated please explain
- why Shepard is so poised in destroying the Reapers? I thought indoctrination was an insidious way of manipulating your mind, but Shepard never waivers from his goal, he never accepts a different solution for the Reaper problem (until the end, I give you that).
- why did the Prothean VI not detect the indoctrination? I do not have a reason to disbelieve the Prothean VI not being able to detect it.

[ajm317]

balance5050 wrote...

They want to let the content speak for itself, they were rushed by EA so they needed more time to get the ending right.

It's way too late.  Even if that was their plan it's inexcusable.

If they release a DLC with the "real ending" during the summer most of their customers will never see it, even if it's free.  Most people will be done with the game by then.