1057 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

There's a lot more whispers than just your companions...

 

[Hawk227]

SubAstris wrote...


If you don't know by the end that you have been indoctrinated, then it doesn't work as a storytelling device, simple. BW needed to make indoc. completely clear, even if it that detracted from the surprise, because predictable stories are usually better than ones which are tangled messes

Saren didn't think he was indoctrinated until the very end. The Illusive Man didn't think he was indoctrinated either. That's what makes Indoctrination so insidious! You don't even realize you're doing the reapers bidding. If you spell it out for people with a "Ha Ha, you just got indoctrinated!" moment it loses its power. There are lots of players in this thread right now that were effectively indoctrinated, and they don't know it! Just like Saren. THAT's the point.

[Myskal1981]

dreman9999 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

LOTS OF ANGER AND CONFUSION SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE 

You see, and that is why you would not attempt it. It is just to risky. If IT was true, Bioware would expect this backlash to happen. And there is no reason to risk this.

What's going on right now is not a backlash?

Sure, but why risk it? Why not come out right away after seeing the first rants?
Please keep in mind that if this was planned by Bioware their actions also affect game magazines and retailers. You do not do that to your business partners and you do not risk it either.

[balance5050]

ajm317 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

They want to let the content speak for itself, they were rushed by EA so they needed more time to get the ending right.

It's way too late.  Even if that was their plan it's inexcusable.

If they release a DLC with the "real ending" during the summer most of their customers will never see it, even if it's free.  Most people will be done with the game by then.

Wut. The DLC will be more popular for this ME than any other I bet you.

[IronSabbath88]

So just because some people got mad and gave their game away, Bioware is to blame for that?

They said to hang onto your saves. If people didn't suck it up and wait, that's not their problem..

[Myskal1981]

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

LOTS OF ANGER AND CONFUSION SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE 

You see, and that is why you would not attempt it. It is just to risky. If IT was true, Bioware would expect this backlash to happen. And there is no reason to risk this.

No risk, they've already almost outsold ME2, it's a DLC game now.

Absolute numbers say nothing.
ME3 might have cost more, marketing sure looked like a lot more for ME3 than ME2. Price per unit is dropping fast, so even if it outsold ME2 does not mean they made more money.
And you still have the risk of alienating your fanbase.

[ajm317]

balance5050 wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

They want to let the content speak for itself, they were rushed by EA so they needed more time to get the ending right.

It's way too late.  Even if that was their plan it's inexcusable.

If they release a DLC with the "real ending" during the summer most of their customers will never see it, even if it's free.  Most people will be done with the game by then.

Wut. The DLC will be more popular for this ME than any other I bet you.

Simple fact of DLC.  After 3 months or so sales/downloads plummet and only reach a fraction of the customer base.

Oh sure, the people hanging around here will get it.  Not the "average" customer though.

IronSabbath88 wrote...

So just because some people got mad and gave their game away, Bioware is to blame for that?

They said to hang onto your saves. If people didn't suck it up and wait, that's not their problem..

If you make a game with an ending that 75% of your customers never see because you didn't release it until 4 months later then yes, that is your fault.

Modifié par ajm317, 14 avril 2012 - 12:22 .

[dreman9999]

Myskal1981 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

You're telling me that hearing whispers in a dream is proof of indoctrination? It's a (censored) dream for god's sake! Stranger things have happened in my dreams! If you listen to the audio files, they're just your companions re-playing some of their dialogue lines in a much lower voice.

Read facts 2, 4,5, and 6....Then we can discuse fact 7 all you want.

Also....
 

If Shepard was already in the process of being indoctrinated please explain
- why Shepard is so poised in destroying the Reapers? I thought indoctrination was an insidious way of manipulating your mind, but Shepard never waivers from his goal, he never accepts a different solution for the Reaper problem (until the end, I give you that).
- why did the Prothean VI not detect the indoctrination? I do not have a reason to disbelieve the Prothean VI not being able to detect it.

1.He is in the prosses of being indoctrinated, not that he is indoctrinated through out the game. The reapers are trying to break his will so he become easier to indoctrinate. In sacturary, it's made clear that willpower makes one resistant to indoctrination but it doesn't stop...It just slows it down dramaticly.
At the end of the game, the influence of indoctrination is heavier for a reason stated in ME1....Being near a reaper causes and quickens indoctrination....
Remeber,Harbinger is at the conduit at the end of the game and takes down Shepard.....All Harbinger has to do at this point to indctriate Shepard is just sit and focus the indoctrination feild on him.

2. The VI is very limited and not flexible like an AI. It and it's other verison have been shown to be faulty twice. It's the same VI that was on the prothean crucible project that was distrupted by sleeper indoctrinated agents. And the VI  shown in Javik's backgroung also failed to detect indoctrinated sleper agents that made that progect fail. The truth is that the prothean miss trust in AI's where there down fall because the VI they used can be dances aroung by the Reapers.

Modifié par dreman9999, 14 avril 2012 - 12:26 .

[dreman9999]

Myskal1981 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

Finding holes in Indoctrination Theory ingame will be difficult as seen throughout this thread, but how about holes outside the game? What is the reason for Bioware to intend IT, deliver an uncomplete ending and suffer through such backlash and continously state that these are the real endings?

It was meant to be a meta gaming experience that would have fourth wall breaking capabilities. It kinda backfired, but it kind worked too.

What was the initial  purpose of this meta gaming experience? Where is the gain for Bioware or EA in that?

LOTS OF ANGER AND CONFUSION SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE 

You see, and that is why you would not attempt it. It is just to risky. If IT was true, Bioware would expect this backlash to happen. And there is no reason to risk this.

What's going on right now is not a backlash?

Sure, but why risk it? Why not come out right away after seeing the first rants?
Please keep in mind that if this was planned by Bioware their actions also affect game magazines and retailers. You do not do that to your business partners and you do not risk it either.

Because it woud make a larger backlash....It would be BW stating they sold an incomplete game.

[IronSabbath88]

75%

Where is that number coming from? How do you know that 75% of people who bought the game got rid of it?

I'd like to see those numbers.

[Hawk227]

Myskal1981 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

You're telling me that hearing whispers in a dream is proof of indoctrination? It's a (censored) dream for god's sake! Stranger things have happened in my dreams! If you listen to the audio files, they're just your companions re-playing some of their dialogue lines in a much lower voice.

Read facts 2, 4,5, and 6....Then we can discuse fact 7 all you want.

Also....
 

If Shepard was already in the process of being indoctrinated please explain
- why Shepard is so poised in destroying the Reapers? I thought indoctrination was an insidious way of manipulating your mind, but Shepard never waivers from his goal, he never accepts a different solution for the Reaper problem (until the end, I give you that).
- why did the Prothean VI not detect the indoctrination? I do not have a reason to disbelieve the Prothean VI not being able to detect it.

For the best control, Indoctrination is an slow ongoing process. The dreams represent a breaking down of his resolve. By the time of the conduit run, he hasn't been turned yet, just softened up. Everything after Harbinger's beam represents the fork in the road between Indoctrinated or Not. Do you succumb (believe the catalyst, choose Control/Synthesis) or do you persevere (Destroy). If you met the prothean VI after picking Synthesis, THEN he would detect indoctrination.

[ajm317]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

75%

Where is that number coming from? How do you know that 75% of people who bought the game got rid of it?

I'd like to see those numbers.

I never said 75% of the people who bought the game got rid of it.  I said they won't see the ending if you release it that late.

I'm sure many of them have it still in their library, that doesn't mean they'll pick it up again and play through a DLC.

As for a source, go to 1:04 of this episode of Extra Credits:

http://penny-arcade....ss-effect-3-dlc

After 3 months DLC is usually a waste of time for developers.

[Myskal1981]

dreman9999 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

You're telling me that hearing whispers in a dream is proof of indoctrination? It's a (censored) dream for god's sake! Stranger things have happened in my dreams! If you listen to the audio files, they're just your companions re-playing some of their dialogue lines in a much lower voice.

Read facts 2, 4,5, and 6....Then we can discuse fact 7 all you want.

Also....
 

If Shepard was already in the process of being indoctrinated please explain
- why Shepard is so poised in destroying the Reapers? I thought indoctrination was an insidious way of manipulating your mind, but Shepard never waivers from his goal, he never accepts a different solution for the Reaper problem (until the end, I give you that).
- why did the Prothean VI not detect the indoctrination? I do not have a reason to disbelieve the Prothean VI not being able to detect it.

1.He is in the prosses of being indoctrinated, not that he is indoctrinated through out the game. The reapers are trying to break his will so he become easier to indoctrinate. In sacturary, it's made clear that willpower makes one risistent to indoctrination but it doesn't stop...It just slows it down dramaticly.
At the end of the game, the influence of indoctrination is heavier for a reason stated in ME1....Being near a reaper causes and quickens indoctrination....
Remeber,Harbinger is at the conduit at the end of the game and takes down Shepard.....All Harbinger has to do at this point to indctriate Shepard is just sit and focus the indoctrination feild on him.

2. The VI is very limited and not flexible like an AI. It and it's other verison have been shown to be faulty twice. It's the same VI that was on the prothean crucible project that was distrupted by sleeper indoctrinated agents. And the VI  shown in Javik's backgroung also failed to detect indoctrinated sleper agents that made that progect fail. The truth is that the prothean miss trust in AI's where there down fall because the VI they used can be dances aroung by the Reapers.

1. Is it stated anywhere in the game or codex how exactly the process of indoctrination looks like? Casting an indoctrination field? As far as I recall there are two differentiations: rapid indoctrination leading to an utter destruction of the mind (see Salarian's on Virmire) or more subtle longterm indoctrination in which case you are not fully under control by the Reapers but your action still mirror the Reaper's wishes, you just believe that they are your wishes too. Shepard never shows signs of this.

2. That is some pretty speculation right there. My guess is that after the Protheans realized that their Crucible project was sabotaged by indoctrinated agents they programmed their VI to better identify indoctrination before storing it on Thessia.

[IronSabbath88]

Who the HELL wouldn't play through a FREE DLC?

Seriously... it's FREE. That means no charge...

People wouldn't play that?

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

 

Didn't I just mention that I have the audio files?<_<

[AtlasMickey]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...

I'm not kidding about this:

Indoc is one big hole. It is the removal of something, not an addition or clarification. It's like that old riddle– what can you find at the bottom of a barrel, which makes the barrel lighter? A hole. What can you find at the end of Mass Effect 3 that makes the game emptier? Indoc.

And it's not a theory, it's theology. Not exaggerating.

Makes the game emptier, huh?

Well considering it was a key part of the first two games, I find your reasoning pretty funny.

Key part of the first game, not so much as the second. In the third game it wasn't even mentioned until the final scne with TIM. The MO of the Reapers had changed to full harvest and the importance of indoctrination as a tactic had diminished.

[OdanUrr]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

There's a lot more whispers than just your companions...

You're going to make me listen to the audio tracks again, aren't you?

EDIT: Okay, I'm going to transcribe every single one of those whispers. Hope that makes you happy.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 14 avril 2012 - 12:39 .

[Myskal1981]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Who the HELL wouldn't play through a FREE DLC?

Seriously... it's FREE. That means no charge...

People wouldn't play that?

So I guess you also download every single available free game there is on the internet just because it is free?
You also download every single free software?

People move on, they lose interest, they have better things to do with their time, they just don't want to bother anymore with ME3. Only because something is free won't change that.

[IronSabbath88]

Myskal1981 wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Who the HELL wouldn't play through a FREE DLC?

Seriously... it's FREE. That means no charge...

People wouldn't play that?

So I guess you also download every single available free game there is on the internet just because it is free?
You also download every single free software?

People move on, they lose interest, they have better things to do with their time, they just don't want to bother anymore with ME3. Only because something is free won't change that.

Then sorry to say but they aren't true fans if they aren't willing to give BioWare a 2nd chance through DLC that costs you nothing.

Modifié par IronSabbath88, 14 avril 2012 - 12:40 .

[ajm317]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Who the HELL wouldn't play through a FREE DLC?

Seriously... it's FREE. That means no charge...

People wouldn't play that?

First of all you're assuming that once people beat ME3 they actually think about it again.  A lot of them won't.

Second of all a lot of console players don't have their systems hooked up to the internet, so DLC isn't an option.

For example according to this site:

http://www.trueachie...-2-xbox-360.htm

Only 29,000 people got any of the achievements for the Kasumi download pack.

Compare with 73,000 who got the most common achievement.

So less than 50% even touched that DLC.

Zaeed and the Cerberus Network downloads, which I think came with the game were around 44k.

Modifié par ajm317, 14 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[dreman9999]

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 

Didn't I just mention that I have the audio files?<_<

So....Which one of your compinion laughs like a marader?

[CerealWar]

ajm317 wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Who the HELL wouldn't play through a FREE DLC?

Seriously... it's FREE. That means no charge...

People wouldn't play that?

First of all you're assuming that once people beat ME3 they actually think about it again.  A lot of them won't.

Second of all a lot of console players don't have their systems hooked up to the internet, so DLC isn't an option.

For example according to this site:

http://www.trueachie...-2-xbox-360.htm

Only 29,000 people got any of the achievements for the Kasumi download pack.

Compare with 73,000 who got the most common achievement.

So less than 50% even touched that DLC.

Zaeed and the Cerberus Network downloads, which I think came with the game were around 44k.

Zaeed and the Cerberus Network were only free if you preordered the game.

Edit: Oops, nvm. Free with new copy D: sorry

Modifié par CerealWar, 14 avril 2012 - 12:51 .

[OdanUrr]

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 

Didn't I just mention that I have the audio files?<_<

So....Which one of your compinion laughs like a marader?

I thought we were talking about the whispers?

[ajm317]

CerealWar wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Who the HELL wouldn't play through a FREE DLC?

Seriously... it's FREE. That means no charge...

People wouldn't play that?

First of all you're assuming that once people beat ME3 they actually think about it again.  A lot of them won't.

Second of all a lot of console players don't have their systems hooked up to the internet, so DLC isn't an option.

For example according to this site:

http://www.trueachie...-2-xbox-360.htm

Only 29,000 people got any of the achievements for the Kasumi download pack.

Compare with 73,000 who got the most common achievement.

So less than 50% even touched that DLC.

Zaeed and the Cerberus Network downloads, which I think came with the game were around 44k.

Zaeed and the Cerberus Network were only free if you preordered the game.

Nope, I've got them, haven't preordered a game since I was 12.

EDIT:  I see you caught yourself.

Still, you did have to buy them if you bought used, so there is that.

Modifié par ajm317, 14 avril 2012 - 12:52 .

[dreman9999]

Myskal1981 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Myskal1981 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fact 7.You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related

You're telling me that hearing whispers in a dream is proof of indoctrination? It's a (censored) dream for god's sake! Stranger things have happened in my dreams! If you listen to the audio files, they're just your companions re-playing some of their dialogue lines in a much lower voice.

Read facts 2, 4,5, and 6....Then we can discuse fact 7 all you want.

Also....
 

If Shepard was already in the process of being indoctrinated please explain
- why Shepard is so poised in destroying the Reapers? I thought indoctrination was an insidious way of manipulating your mind, but Shepard never waivers from his goal, he never accepts a different solution for the Reaper problem (until the end, I give you that).
- why did the Prothean VI not detect the indoctrination? I do not have a reason to disbelieve the Prothean VI not being able to detect it.

1.He is in the prosses of being indoctrinated, not that he is indoctrinated through out the game. The reapers are trying to break his will so he become easier to indoctrinate. In sacturary, it's made clear that willpower makes one risistent to indoctrination but it doesn't stop...It just slows it down dramaticly.
At the end of the game, the influence of indoctrination is heavier for a reason stated in ME1....Being near a reaper causes and quickens indoctrination....
Remeber,Harbinger is at the conduit at the end of the game and takes down Shepard.....All Harbinger has to do at this point to indctriate Shepard is just sit and focus the indoctrination feild on him.

2. The VI is very limited and not flexible like an AI. It and it's other verison have been shown to be faulty twice. It's the same VI that was on the prothean crucible project that was distrupted by sleeper indoctrinated agents. And the VI  shown in Javik's backgroung also failed to detect indoctrinated sleper agents that made that progect fail. The truth is that the prothean miss trust in AI's where there down fall because the VI they used can be dances aroung by the Reapers.

1. Is it stated anywhere in the game or codex how exactly the process of indoctrination looks like? Casting an indoctrination field? As far as I recall there are two differentiations: rapid indoctrination leading to an utter destruction of the mind (see Salarian's on Virmire) or more subtle longterm indoctrination in which case you are not fully under control by the Reapers but your action still mirror the Reaper's wishes, you just believe that they are your wishes too. Shepard never shows signs of this.

2. That is some pretty speculation right there. My guess is that after the Protheans realized that their Crucible project was sabotaged by indoctrinated agents they programmed their VI to better identify indoctrination before storing it on Thessia.

1.Yes.....It's bluntly stated in the codex. And you have what rapid incotrination is wrong...That makes husk. That just done with dragons teeth. Rapid indoctrination leave the being with out a will. The crazed salarian has a will. Also, you need to reread my post....I state process of being indoctrinated. When the signs really show, it's too late, Shep is only are the early stages.

2.No, That's dedutive reasoning. The project Javik was part of was after their crucible fell and that VI that was used could sense indoctrinated agent....The project still was infiltrated by indoctrinated sleeper agents anyway.