1057 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

On the "everything after Harby's ray is dream", what is the use of having shown to Shepard what we see as "endings" in this specific, highly "discutable" fashion?

Could you be more specific? By "endings" do you mean red, blue, green endings?

[Stegoceras]

balance5050 wrote...

If you stand and wait on the final push, you see that Harbinger decides to kill "everyone" else and saves you for last, considering all the smack talk that harby does in ME2 "your mind will be mine" "we will find another way" You would think that he would have vaporized Shep like he did everyone else.

Also, it's stated that Anderson got there AFTER you, considering Harbingers dead eye with every other living thing, how come he conveniently misses Anderson as well?

Just took a quick peek at the scene, but Harbinger actually hits the group of soldiers all at once (which is how I'm pretty sure it's ment to be), he picks of some vehicles and other soldiers first, but to say is specifically saving Shepard for last doesn't really come across in the scene, also after the hit you can see at least one generic soldier still moving and dying, but Shepard survives simply through it's plot armour, I just as well presumed that Anderson has the same plot armour. It's not a great story mechanic but I wouldn't validate an Indoctrination Theory on that fact.

[Stegoceras]

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

On the "everything after Harby's ray is dream", what is the use of having shown to Shepard what we see as "endings" in this specific, highly "discutable" fashion?

Could you be more specific? By "endings" do you mean red, blue, green endings?

I think he means that according to that theory beyond the beam the game no longer progresses for the next 20 minutes and doesn't actually conclude at all. What is the point then?

[Iconoclaste]

Why make any presence of Anderson in this dream? Why is the Catalyst taking a translucent appearance rather than the "full opaque starting kid"? Why propose a "destroy" option to give Shepard a chance to wake up? Why show him anything negative if the goal is to gain his trust? Why the whole argument with TIM? Why the "TIM take control" or "Anderson shoots red tube" secondary "states" in the dream? Why would the Catalyst explain anything about the Reapers motives that could sound horrible to Shepard? Why not just show him he manages to reach an easy switch to win, and a nice bed to rest?

[rachellouise]

but all dreams/hallucinations are constructed by the reapers? Just they begin at different times depending on the IT version?

[Galifreya]

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

Uh, how is not knowing what the crucible would do irrelevant? Clearly, TIM was not planning on grabbing the nice handles in the blue zone.

If the catalyst wanted to prevent the crucible from being used. he would get the reapers to blow it up. Because going by IT, the arms of the citadel have not been opened yet, so the crucible is waiting around without much defense.

He "knew" the crucible would allow control of the reapers. How did TIM even get to the control panel unless the reapers let him?

TIM is indoctrinated , if he 'knows' he can control the reapers then it was a suggestion placed by the reapers.

But then, what doe it matter what he says, and he never had to get to the control panel. According to IT, this confrontation is not real. 

 "if he 'knows' he can control the reapers then it was a suggestion placed by the reapers."
 K, glad we finally established that.

"According to IT, this confrontation is not real." not necessarily, the hallucination could start with the "elevator to heaven" that shep passes out on. So the only thing that I.T. really stands by is that the kid may not be real and that he is lying. 

YES. That is the only thing that is concrete in the IT. The child? Is a big, fat liar. He could even really be there, talking to Shepard. That doesn't mean he's not still a projection of the Reapers' goals. There's nothing that says an indoctrination attempt can't happen in reality -just by talking to someone or something-, seeing as Shepard BROKE Saren AND the Illusive Man's indoctrination...just by talking to them.  No matter how you cut it, there is one thing we know for sure: Starbrat lied his little ass off.

IT doesn't claim to know where the Indoctrination attempt/hallucination starts, we just feel that it IS there. In some capacity or another. Far too much is off about the ending.

[Iconoclaste]

rachellouise wrote...

but all dreams/hallucinations are
constructed by the reapers? Just they begin at different times depending
on the IT version?

I believe the usual "dreams" Shepard has throughout the game are his "own". Then again, why the "ending dream" would be so different? To give a hint at Shepard he is actually "fighting" indoc?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 14 avril 2012 - 05:40 .

[balance5050]

rachellouise wrote...

but all dreams/hallucinations are constructed by the reapers? Just they begin at different times depending on the IT version?

Yes.

[Iconoclaste]

Then what's the point in refuting Shepard's "breathing scene" happening on the Citadel?

[THEE_DEATHMASTER]

For IT it makes the most sense for it to happen on Earth post Harbinger beam.

Modifié par THEE_DEATHMASTER, 14 avril 2012 - 05:46 .

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Then what's the point in refuting Shepard's "breathing scene" happening on the Citadel?

Simply put there is no way shepard could survive this:
 
if the crucible was directly above his head, but if he were "inside" the citadel or back on Earth then it makes sense.

[rachellouise]

But talking to Saren and TIM, only makes them realize they're indoctrinated. There is no way to break free from the reapers, except by taking their life.

Why would the reapers give shepard a 'get out of jail free' card?

Modifié par rachellouise, 14 avril 2012 - 05:50 .

[Iconoclaste]

THEE_DEATHMASTER wrote...

For IT it makes the most sense for it to happen on Earth post Harbinger beam.

Given there are different points in time for a possible dream to start, like proposed just above, and given all the arguments proposed against the "longest version" of the dream starting after harby's hit, I am not convinced it makes the most sound version of IT.

[Iconoclaste]

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Then what's the point in refuting Shepard's "breathing scene" happening on the Citadel?

Simply put there is no way shepard could survive this:
 
if the crucible was directly above his head, but if he were "inside" the citadel or back on Earth then it makes sense.

I asked you many, many times to explain the whole sequence, and you always refused, trying to get a subject change everytime. Here again, you show a picture of a part of this sequence that could serve your purpose, thus just ignoring the fact that it's not representative at all of the course of events. Doing so is discrediting your good will to find the truth, and to just defend your preferred version of IT, even if it is the weakest one.

[balance5050]

rachellouise wrote...

But talking to Saren and TIM, only makes them realize they're indoctrinated. There is no way to break free from the reapers, except taking their life.

Shepard never has to break free, just "resist" for awhile longer. Also, He may be indoc during the star kid scene, but his logical fallacies and lies are supposed to give something away that "something isn't right".

So if he's indoc, but able to see through the lie and still destroy the reapers (which has always been the goal), then the reapers aren't putting out the "indoc" signal anymore. Allowing Shep to wake up free of indoctrination.

[Iconoclaste]

And, just regarding this specific picture, since this "explosion" is happening in the center of the torus, which is almost perpendicular to the surface of Earth, the argument that this make the Citadel go down on Earth after the blast is false, for a very good amount of time. Maybe only one or two of the arms would possibly reach Earth's atmosphere faster, but the animation clearly shows it's not going to happen in a few minutes.

[rachellouise]

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

But talking to Saren and TIM, only makes them realize they're indoctrinated. There is no way to break free from the reapers, except taking their life.

Shepard never has to break free, just "resist" for awhile longer. Also, He may be indoc during the star kid scene, but his logical fallacies and lies are supposed to give something away that "something isn't right".

So if he's indoc, but able to see through the lie and still destroy the reapers (which has always been the goal), then the reapers aren't putting out the "indoc" signal anymore. Allowing Shep to wake up free of indoctrination.

If the reapers were able to control your dreams by suggestion, wouldn't you already be indoctrinated?

and why would they stop trying to indoctrinate him if he wasn't, so he could wake up. Why make 'destroy' able to do that? :/

Modifié par rachellouise, 14 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

But talking to Saren and TIM, only makes them realize they're indoctrinated. There is no way to break free from the reapers, except taking their life.

Shepard never has to break free, just "resist" for awhile longer. Also, He may be indoc during the star kid scene, but his logical fallacies and lies are supposed to give something away that "something isn't right".

So if he's indoc, but able to see through the lie and still destroy the reapers (which has always been the goal), then the reapers aren't putting out the "indoc" signal anymore. Allowing Shep to wake up free of indoctrination.

Do you usually presume that when people make flawed arguments they realise that they are making mistakes or do they make them because they don't know any better? Since that is how you approach the Catalyst

[Iconoclaste]

I doubt there is a real effort made to find what truly happened here. Supporting evidence is too often reached through great lenghts of speculation and inferences, when there is a simpler explanation available that needs less far fetched reasoning.

Shepard dreams of soldiers in London surviving a blast, or getting vaporized by it? He dreams that the Citadel sends a powerful signal from its center to the Charon relay? He dreams of the Citadel exploding around him, viewed from a good distance? Was that to get Shepard "confused" or helpful in any manner for the Reapers? Why is this dream so much structured like a movie, all of a sudden? No wisps of black around those sequences, again.

And still, if the "destroy" option makes Shepard "wake up" from Indoc, why then would the Reapers show him anything past the point where Shepard shoots at the conduit? They wanted him to see the whole result of this action, and then let him wake up to get back fighting them? They wanted to show him there is hope to save the soldiers in London with the "Destroy" option?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 14 avril 2012 - 06:12 .

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

But talking to Saren and TIM, only makes them realize they're indoctrinated. There is no way to break free from the reapers, except taking their life.

Shepard never has to break free, just "resist" for awhile longer. Also, He may be indoc during the star kid scene, but his logical fallacies and lies are supposed to give something away that "something isn't right".

So if he's indoc, but able to see through the lie and still destroy the reapers (which has always been the goal), then the reapers aren't putting out the "indoc" signal anymore. Allowing Shep to wake up free of indoctrination.

Do you usually presume that when people make flawed arguments they realise that they are making mistakes or do they make them because they don't know any better? Since that is how you approach the Catalyst

If a billion year old AI makes a flawed argument, I doubt it's a mistake.

"The created always rebel against the creator":huh:

But you created the reapers and they haven't rebelled in the entire billion years you've been controlling them.

And he's racist.

[Stegoceras]

Iconoclaste wrote...
And still, if the "destroy" option makes Shepard "wake up" from Indoc, why then would the Reapers show him anything past the point where Shepard shoots at the conduit? They wanted him to see the whole result of this action, and then let him wake up to get back fighting them?

Just imagine Shepard waking up from the indoctrination and seeing Harbinger's foot/tentacle/whatever coming down to splat him.... "THIS HURTS YOU!".

Modifié par Stegoceras, 14 avril 2012 - 06:16 .

[Iconoclaste]

Nowhere did the Catalyst say he actually is the "Creator" of the Reapers. He mostly said they were his "solution", as if they were simply "tools". This AI Catalyst is using the Reapers to achieve the goals set by his programming. The Reapers might very well have already "rebelled" against their "Creators" in a very remote past.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 14 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[IronSabbath88]

Those are visions of hope played in Shepard's mind. Making him think he made the right choice regardless of what choice he made. He wants to make sure the galaxy is safe, his friends are safe, etc.

It's hope. That's all it is. You seriously have to ask yourself why the Destroy ending where Shepard wakes up is the ending that requires the most War Assets, and why if you "save" Anderson long enough to talk to him, it's only 4000 as opposed to the regular 5000. Because Anderson is Shepard's resolve.

It makes sense to me and I really don't see why it wouldn't to anyone else unless they just were deadset on believing the worst.

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Nowhere did the Catalyst say he actually is the "Creator" of the Reapers. He mostly said they were his "solution", as if they were simply "tools". This AI Catalyst is using the Reapers to achieve the goals set by his programming. The Reapers might very well have already "rebelled" against their "Creators" in a very remote past.

He contradicts every value you learn in the game.