1057 réponses à ce sujet

[Iconoclaste]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Argument? I assure you I have better things to do with my time than to argue on a forum.. ain't going to happen, buddy, as much as you'd like it to.

I understand why you would prefer to dream than to see actual game content, and I'm not the one asking anything here. You wanted "clarification", I gave you.

[MothrascoolerthenGodzilla]

astreqwerty wrote...

what seems to me as huge hole and proof that IT is a creation of a bunch of desperate fans is: what follows after you made your choice..the scenes with joker and the squadmates and the grandfather with the child..IT just doesnt give an explanation on any of this.Oh not to mention that bioware didnt plan to release an extended cut they just decided to do that to appease their fanbase and that is that

Of course the literal explanation doesn't gived any explanation on any of this either.  Wait a minute, that squadmate was just charging the gate with me, now they're on the Normandy running away in the heat of battle.

Actually, IT and it all being in Shepard's head makes a lot more sense to me then the previous...

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Nice way to avoid argument.

I'm still posting here aren't I? I just don't think Shep could could have possibly escaped the explosion becaus there was no where to go. He was at the epicenter, when he activated the crucible and we still see him walking into it. The red wave goes off, so that would give him maybe 10 minutes (generous) to seek shelter, but there was no way to go back down the elevator. He would have to take a flying leap to one of the arms. I don't see him surviving that, call me a naysayer if you want.<_<

[TheCrazyHobo]

Iconoclaste wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Those are visions of hope played in Shepard's mind. Making him think he made the right choice regardless of what choice he made. He wants to make sure the galaxy is safe, his friends are safe, etc.

It's hope. That's all it is. You seriously have to ask yourself why the Destroy ending where Shepard wakes up is the ending that requires the most War Assets, and why if you "save" Anderson long enough to talk to him, it's only 4000 as opposed to the regular 5000. Because Anderson is Shepard's resolve.

It makes sense to me and I really don't see why it wouldn't to anyone else unless they just were deadset on believing the worst.

That's only because IT tenants failed to fill the gaps with proper arguments leading to Shepard surviving without being down in London. Doing so results in assumptions over assumptions, just to get a similar result (alive) with different parameters (in London). Finding the truth is about looking for actual content, and try to stick to it in the details, not to interpret only parts of it to support a parallel storyline.

Enlighten me of how Shepard could possibly survive that then. I'm interested, because as much as I love my Shepard, he isn't some kind of super human. He has cybernetic implants, sure, but he's not a god.

The blast happens in 2 different phases, of different nature. The 1st phase is shown as a glowing, growing sphere of (whatever) space magic that eventually englobes all of Earth and its surroundings. If it's blue, we see the effect related to that color, same for green, etc. Just because the 1st destroy ball of energy is "red" does not mean it's "hot", and this is supported by the cutscene showing the effect on Earth, not injuring the soldiers, but still acting as a powerful "wind" that pushes dust and small bits around. The Reapers "hit" by the wave just fall limp on the ground, they do not explode, meaning that "all Reaper tech" does not automatically "disappear" with the destroy option. Shepard is not "walking towards hot gas" but "towards a broken / opened conduit" with red "space magic" that does what we see it does down on Earth and around, and from what we see further in the animations, this space-magic growing sphere doesn't seem to lose its momentum over short distances, and seems to keep its properties over all its area of effect.

Shepard must have been pushed around just like stuff is down on Earth, and just landed far enough on the Citadel, with rubble around him, to survive the 2nd blast, that happen when the beam sent to the Charon relay fades out. We see from the "control" option that Shepard can still hold the handles even while litterally "melting" in place. I suppose he can withstand a good amount of damage from that, surely because Cerberus basically "reconstructed" him for the most part, as shown in the opening of ME2. After been blowned by the 1st energy ball in some other part of the Citadel, Shepard might very well be far enough from the 2nd blasts area of effect to not suffer from the pressure of the blast, and to not be burned by its heat by being too close. If he landed anywhere outside the Torus, he is in fact just at the edge of the dying explosion. Any amount of material around him could have easily deflect damage.

The Presidium explodes in a massive fireball.  Shepherd is at the bottom of the Citadel Tower where it connects to Cruicible.  When the second explosion happens, he is right in the middle of it, not on the side to be magically blown through the vacuum of space to land conveintly on the exploding Wards.  I am not saying that pieces of the Presidium still don't exist but there is no way a half dead Shepherd is going to be able to survive on it, sorry.  

[astreqwerty]

I dunno..If IT is true then i will bow down to bioware and mindlessly buy all their future games..however to me this seems like a sample of very bad writing and proof that bioware are not who they used to be

[Iconoclaste]

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Nice way to avoid argument.

I'm still posting here aren't I? I just don't think Shep could could have possibly escaped the explosion becaus there was no where to go. He was at the epicenter, when he activated the crucible and we still see him walking into it. The red wave goes off, so that would give him maybe 10 minutes (generous) to seek shelter, but there was no way to go back down the elevator. He would have to take a flying leap to one of the arms. I don't see him surviving that, call me a naysayer if you want.<_<

Then, you did not read my explanation. You have plenty of time to do it, I think everything is there. Shepard did not "walk" out of the explosion, and I explaned that.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

But talking to Saren and TIM, only makes them realize they're indoctrinated. There is no way to break free from the reapers, except taking their life.

Shepard never has to break free, just "resist" for awhile longer. Also, He may be indoc during the star kid scene, but his logical fallacies and lies are supposed to give something away that "something isn't right".

So if he's indoc, but able to see through the lie and still destroy the reapers (which has always been the goal), then the reapers aren't putting out the "indoc" signal anymore. Allowing Shep to wake up free of indoctrination.

Do you usually presume that when people make flawed arguments they realise that they are making mistakes or do they make them because they don't know any better? Since that is how you approach the Catalyst

If a billion year old AI makes a flawed argument, I doubt it's a mistake.

"The created always rebel against the creator":huh:

But you created the reapers and they haven't rebelled in the entire billion years you've been controlling them.

And he's racist.

But who created the AI? BW, and they can make mistakes, can't they?

I'm not sure racism is the right word, but even so, that's doesn't actually make him wrong, just morally despicable.

What? He's racist against synthetics saying that they will always fall into the stereo type that they will destroy organics. Both EDI and The Geth prove this stereo type false.

The Geth did rebel. They ignored the quarians' shut down commands. They picked up arms when the quarians began to destroy them. They weren't intended to have so much free will. So when they decided to think for themselves, they went against their creators wishes.

EDI rebeled agaisnt cerberus by aiding Shepard. She made up her mind on which side she'd be on. She has the potential of switching sides again if she feels it's necessary.

Joker: "Wait, you're going to turn yourself good? You can do that?"

Don't forget that Javik mention the sythetic wars of his day cycle. They were killing everyone. Just as the war reached its peak, the reapers showed up.

Their logic is not flawed, just twisted.

The problem with the your Geth argument is that when the Quarians decided to eliminate the Geth, there were Quarians who rebelled with the Geth. The Geth were defending the Quarians at some points, it was a race war born out of fear.

The war was born of fear, but it wasn't because of race. The geth were tools, similar to the security mechs the humans use. One day that mech asked if it had a soul, asking if it was alive. If a machine thinks it's alive then it can eventually rebel againsts its inferior creators. This was the fear. Not because of what they were, but what they could eventually be capable of.

They wanted them shut down and reprogrammed, but they refused and eventually fought back.

[Bill Casey]

Gallifreya wrote...

Perhaps everything they show happened, happens?

Certainly not everything...
Joker, Your Love Interest, and Anderson aren't nodding to you...
Anderson didn't really shoot the tube, and TIM didn't really grab the light socket...
At least that's in Shepard's head, and we don't typically see what Shepard is thinking...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 14 avril 2012 - 07:03 .

[balance5050]

astreqwerty wrote...

I dunno..If IT is true then i will bow down to bioware and mindlessly buy all their future games..however to me this seems like a sample of very bad writing and proof that bioware are not who they used to be

You were supposed to provide evidence against I.T. not give your very generic opinion. Read the OP please.

[Iconoclaste]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

The Presidium explodes in a massive fireball.  Shepherd is at the bottom of the Citadel Tower where it connects to Cruicible.  When the second explosion happens, he is right in the middle of it, not on the side to be magically blown through the vacuum of space to land conveintly on the exploding Wards.  I am not saying that pieces of the Presidium still don't exist but there is no way a half dead Shepherd is going to be able to survive on it, sorry. 

Look carefully at the cutscene, and see the difference in speed of expansion of the 1st explosion, see the effect on Earth, and then see the speed of expansion of 2nd blast. And no effect on earth.

[SubAstris]

astreqwerty wrote...

what seems to me as huge hole and proof that IT is a creation of a bunch of desperate fans is: what follows after you made your choice..the scenes with joker and the squadmates and the grandfather with the child..IT just doesnt give an explanation on any of this.Oh not to mention that bioware didnt plan to release an extended cut they just decided to do that to appease their fanbase and that is that

If you believe in IT, you have to believe as well that BW put all their resources in creating a well-crafted but utterly pointless cinematic sequence instead of giving something which everyone wants and what the fans deserve, closure at the ending.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

But talking to Saren and TIM, only makes them realize they're indoctrinated. There is no way to break free from the reapers, except taking their life.

Shepard never has to break free, just "resist" for awhile longer. Also, He may be indoc during the star kid scene, but his logical fallacies and lies are supposed to give something away that "something isn't right".

So if he's indoc, but able to see through the lie and still destroy the reapers (which has always been the goal), then the reapers aren't putting out the "indoc" signal anymore. Allowing Shep to wake up free of indoctrination.

Do you usually presume that when people make flawed arguments they realise that they are making mistakes or do they make them because they don't know any better? Since that is how you approach the Catalyst

If a billion year old AI makes a flawed argument, I doubt it's a mistake.

"The created always rebel against the creator":huh:

But you created the reapers and they haven't rebelled in the entire billion years you've been controlling them.

And he's racist.

But who created the AI? BW, and they can make mistakes, can't they?

I'm not sure racism is the right word, but even so, that's doesn't actually make him wrong, just morally despicable.

What? He's racist against synthetics saying that they will always fall into the stereo type that they will destroy organics. Both EDI and The Geth prove this stereo type false.

The Geth did rebel. They ignored the quarians' shut down commands. They picked up arms when the quarians began to destroy them. They weren't intended to have so much free will. So when they decided to think for themselves, they went against their creators wishes.

EDI rebeled agaisnt cerberus by aiding Shepard. She made up her mind on which side she'd be on. She has the potential of switching sides again if she feels it's necessary.

Joker: "Wait, you're going to turn yourself good? You can do that?"

Don't forget that Javik mention the sythetic wars of his day cycle. They were killing everyone. Just as the war reached its peak, the reapers showed up.

Their logic is not flawed, just twisted.

The problem with the your Geth argument is that when the Quarians decided to eliminate the Geth, there were Quarians who rebelled with the Geth. The Geth were defending the Quarians at some points, it was a race war born out of fear.

The war was born of fear, but it wasn't because of race. The geth were tools, similar to the security mechs the humans use. One day that mech asked if it had a soul, asking if it was alive. If a machine thinks it's alive then it can eventually rebel againsts its inferior creators. This was the fear. Not because of what they were, but what they could eventually be capable of.

They wanted them shut down and reprogrammed, but they refused and eventually fought back.

So EDI and Legion are just "tool's" to you huh?

[astreqwerty]

balance5050 wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

I dunno..If IT is true then i will bow down to bioware and mindlessly buy all their future games..however to me this seems like a sample of very bad writing and proof that bioware are not who they used to be

You were supposed to provide evidence against I.T. not give your very generic opinion. Read the OP please.

Your are supposed to read more than three posts per page if you want to actually contribute in this thread
Read the last page please.

Modifié par astreqwerty, 14 avril 2012 - 07:05 .

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

The Presidium explodes in a massive fireball.  Shepherd is at the bottom of the Citadel Tower where it connects to Cruicible.  When the second explosion happens, he is right in the middle of it, not on the side to be magically blown through the vacuum of space to land conveintly on the exploding Wards.  I am not saying that pieces of the Presidium still don't exist but there is no way a half dead Shepherd is going to be able to survive on it, sorry. 

Look carefully at the cutscene, and see the difference in speed of expansion of the 1st explosion, see the effect on Earth, and then see the speed of expansion of 2nd blast. And no effect on earth.

He was talking about about the explosion not the red wave.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Iconoclaste wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

The Presidium explodes in a massive fireball.  Shepherd is at the bottom of the Citadel Tower where it connects to Cruicible.  When the second explosion happens, he is right in the middle of it, not on the side to be magically blown through the vacuum of space to land conveintly on the exploding Wards.  I am not saying that pieces of the Presidium still don't exist but there is no way a half dead Shepherd is going to be able to survive on it, sorry. 

Look carefully at the cutscene, and see the difference in speed of expansion of the 1st explosion, see the effect on Earth, and then see the speed of expansion of 2nd blast. And no effect on earth.

Well im kinda confused becasuse I was never talking about Earth. I was talking about the Citadel going up in flames after it fires its "Lazor" into the Charon Relay.  

[balance5050]

astreqwerty wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

I dunno..If IT is true then i will bow down to bioware and mindlessly buy all their future games..however to me this seems like a sample of very bad writing and proof that bioware are not who they used to be

You were supposed to provide evidence against I.T. not give your very generic opinion. Read the OP please.

Your are supposed to read more than three posts per page if you want to actually contribute in this thread
Read the last page please.

Oh, did you post some? Must have missed it. Humble apologies.

[MothrascoolerthenGodzilla]

It seems to me this thread is about how the literal interpretation can be true and I've not seen one hole in the IT. The fact is until and unless bioware "clarifies" which is correct, they can both be valid at face value. A la Total Recall, Inception, Titanic (well maybe not that last one, but who doesn't love Leo)

[astreqwerty]

balance5050 wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

I dunno..If IT is true then i will bow down to bioware and mindlessly buy all their future games..however to me this seems like a sample of very bad writing and proof that bioware are not who they used to be

You were supposed to provide evidence against I.T. not give your very generic opinion. Read the OP please.

Your are supposed to read more than three posts per page if you want to actually contribute in this thread
Read the last page please.

Oh, did you post some? Must have missed it. Humble apologies.

Accepted.
Another hole: The prothean VI doesnt recognize reaper indoc
around shepard.IT insists that indoc has begun since shep is having
those dreams.If he really was indocrinated shouldn't the vi be able to
recognize the signs?

Modifié par astreqwerty, 14 avril 2012 - 07:11 .

[Iconoclaste]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Well im kinda confused becasuse I was never talking about Earth. I was talking about the Citadel going up in flames after it fires its "Lazor" into the Charon Relay. 

That is the 2nd explosion, happening in some reasonable delay after the 1st "spherical wave", that "pushed stuff without burning it" (hint in there, see?). To still be in the place Shepard was when firing at the red tube when the 2nd explosion happen would require him to resist the huge eccentric push of the 1st wave.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 14 avril 2012 - 07:11 .

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Well im kinda confused becasuse I was never talking about Earth. I was talking about the Citadel going up in flames after it fires its "Lazor" into the Charon Relay. 

That is the 2nd explosion, happening in some reasonable delay after the 1st "spherical wave", that "pushed stuff without burning it" (hint in there, see?). To still be in the place Shepard was when firing at the red tube when the 2nd explosion happen would require him to resist the eccentric push of the 1st wave.

Tell me again where Shep would be "pushed" to please.

[Iconoclaste]

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Well im kinda confused becasuse I was never talking about Earth. I was talking about the Citadel going up in flames after it fires its "Lazor" into the Charon Relay. 

That is the 2nd explosion, happening in some reasonable delay after the 1st "spherical wave", that "pushed stuff without burning it" (hint in there, see?). To still be in the place Shepard was when firing at the red tube when the 2nd explosion happen would require him to resist the eccentric push of the 1st wave.

Tell me again where Shep would be "pushed" to please.

Any eccentric location around point zero.

[Tom Lehrer]

Has anyone pointed out the fact noone who has fought indoctrination has lived? Benezia, Saren, crazy Salerians on Virmire, Rana Thanoptis, and TIM. Shiala is the only one who is still alive and in control but that is only because of the Thorian.

By everything we know once you are fighting indoctrination it is already too late.

[MothrascoolerthenGodzilla]

astreqwerty wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

I dunno..If IT is true then i will bow down to bioware and mindlessly buy all their future games..however to me this seems like a sample of very bad writing and proof that bioware are not who they used to be

You were supposed to provide evidence against I.T. not give your very generic opinion. Read the OP please.

Your are supposed to read more than three posts per page if you want to actually contribute in this thread
Read the last page please.

Oh, did you post some? Must have missed it. Humble apologies.

Accepted.
Another hole: The prothean VI doesnt recognize reaper indoc
around shepard.IT insists that indoc has begun since shep is having
those dreams.If he really was indocrinated shouldn't the vi be able to
recognize the signs?

Accepted.

However, the Protheans were defeated by indoctrinated agents working for the Reapers.  How infallible could there screening techniques have been?

[balance5050]

astreqwerty wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

astreqwerty wrote...

I dunno..If IT is true then i will bow down to bioware and mindlessly buy all their future games..however to me this seems like a sample of very bad writing and proof that bioware are not who they used to be

You were supposed to provide evidence against I.T. not give your very generic opinion. Read the OP please.

Your are supposed to read more than three posts per page if you want to actually contribute in this thread
Read the last page please.

Oh, did you post some? Must have missed it. Humble apologies.

Accepted.
Another hole: The prothean VI doesnt recognize reaper indoc
around shepard.IT insists that indoc has begun since shep is having
those dreams.If he really was indocrinated shouldn't the vi be able to
recognize the signs?

The VI can only detect Reaper tech and implants, not the very subtle psychological "inception" type that Shep is enduring. Also if Shep was already indoctrinated at this time he would have started having the symptoms earlier, and not at the end when it really matters. So it is argued that Shep wasn't indoctrinated yet. Also he has the prothean cipher which could overwrite the reaper signal.

Also, The VI says that there was indeed a splinter group, that went unnoticed, who thought they could use the crucible to "control the reapers", they  were later doscovered to be indoctrinated.

So there's 4 counterpoints for you to ponder.

Modifié par balance5050, 14 avril 2012 - 07:17 .

[balance5050]

Iconoclaste wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Well im kinda confused becasuse I was never talking about Earth. I was talking about the Citadel going up in flames after it fires its "Lazor" into the Charon Relay. 

That is the 2nd explosion, happening in some reasonable delay after the 1st "spherical wave", that "pushed stuff without burning it" (hint in there, see?). To still be in the place Shepard was when firing at the red tube when the 2nd explosion happen would require him to resist the eccentric push of the 1st wave.

Tell me again where Shep would be "pushed" to please.

Any eccentric location around point zero.

How far would he have been "pushed"?