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Holes in Indoctrination Theory (IT)- KEEP IT CIVIL


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#776
Stegoceras

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balance5050 wrote...
High:
 “You don't need hope. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work anymore.” 

low: 
“You have hope. More than you think. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work anymore.” 

High: 
“The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution.”
 
low: “Perhaps. I control the Reapers. They are my solution.” 

“Chaos. You bring it on yourselves. The created will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle.” 

“Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle.” 

“That depends on you.” 

 “We find a new solution.” 


Weird, pretty sure I got the red lines, though with a high EMS rating of approx. 7000+ (full mp readiness).

#777
balance5050

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SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.

#778
balance5050

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Stegoceras wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
High:
 “You don't need hope. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work anymore.” 

low: 
“You have hope. More than you think. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work anymore.” 

High: 
“The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution.”
 
low: “Perhaps. I control the Reapers. They are my solution.” 

“Chaos. You bring it on yourselves. The created will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle.” 

“Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle.” 

“That depends on you.” 

 “We find a new solution.” 


Weird, pretty sure I got the red lines, though with a high EMS rating of approx. 7000+ (full mp readiness).


My post is backwards I think, apologies.

Modifié par balance5050, 14 avril 2012 - 09:09 .


#779
RaidShock

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wickedgoodreed wrote...

I'm not a confirmed IT believer, but if I were my take on this would be: 

The reapers have been attempting to indoctrinate Shepard since the events of ME2, but having a hard time of it given Shepard's uniquely strong will (Hence the strange dreams and lines like, "Harbinger speaks of you. You resist, but you will fail.") 

During Shepard's trip to the Sanctuary we learn that the Illusive Man has discovered how to indoctrinate people using the same control methods as the Reapers. The research terminals also make a point of highlighting that adrenaline can be used to rapidly accelerate the indoctrination process.

Cut to the final race to the beam, and Shepard's stress and adrenaline levels have to be at an all time high, making her/him more susceptible to indoctrination.  Not to mention that taking a reaper beam to the face has got to hurt. In any event, the Illusive Man uses this to his advantage and takes control of Shepard. We see this happen; there's nothing ambiguous about it.

Since the Illusive Man is himself under the control of the Reapers, this effectively means that Shepard is under their control as well. At this point, Shepard resists some more but is clearly struggling. The Catalyst steps in where the Illusive Man leaves off and tries to cement the process, either ultimately succeeding (Control or Synthesis) or failing (Destroy) once and for all.


Ah, I hadn't considered some of this, particularly the adrenaline point. Thanks for the reply!

#780
balance5050

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RaidShock wrote...

wickedgoodreed wrote...

I'm not a confirmed IT believer, but if I were my take on this would be: 

The reapers have been attempting to indoctrinate Shepard since the events of ME2, but having a hard time of it given Shepard's uniquely strong will (Hence the strange dreams and lines like, "Harbinger speaks of you. You resist, but you will fail.") 

During Shepard's trip to the Sanctuary we learn that the Illusive Man has discovered how to indoctrinate people using the same control methods as the Reapers. The research terminals also make a point of highlighting that adrenaline can be used to rapidly accelerate the indoctrination process.

Cut to the final race to the beam, and Shepard's stress and adrenaline levels have to be at an all time high, making her/him more susceptible to indoctrination.  Not to mention that taking a reaper beam to the face has got to hurt. In any event, the Illusive Man uses this to his advantage and takes control of Shepard. We see this happen; there's nothing ambiguous about it.

Since the Illusive Man is himself under the control of the Reapers, this effectively means that Shepard is under their control as well. At this point, Shepard resists some more but is clearly struggling. The Catalyst steps in where the Illusive Man leaves off and tries to cement the process, either ultimately succeeding (Control or Synthesis) or failing (Destroy) once and for all.


Ah, I hadn't considered some of this, particularly the adrenaline point. Thanks for the reply!


Indeed, good way of looking at it.

#781
SubAstris

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balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct

#782
balance5050

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SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct


You're right, having different dialogue based on EMS is pointless, theres no reason why they did it. Just like there is no reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard<_<

I'm not going to argue what the kid is trying to say, because he is not trust worthy.

Next peice of evidence against I.T. please? In game evidence only.

Modifié par balance5050, 14 avril 2012 - 09:18 .


#783
SubAstris

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balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct


You're right, having different dialogue based on EMS is pointless, theres no reason why they did it. Just like there is no reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard<_<

I'm not going to argue what the kid is trying to say, because he is not trust worthy.

Next peice of evidence against I.T. please? In game evidence only.



I'm saying it doesn't support your assertion that the Catalyst is trying to get you to choose a specific thing . And from your absense of any good comeback, I assume that you agree :)

How exactly is he not trustworthy? You have assume IT to come to that conclusion

#784
TheCrazyHobo

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balance5050 wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Well im kinda confused becasuse I was never talking about Earth. I was talking about the Citadel going up in flames after it fires its "Lazor" into the Charon Relay. 

That is the 2nd explosion, happening in some reasonable delay after the 1st "spherical wave", that "pushed stuff without burning it" (hint in there, see?). To still be in the place Shepard was when firing at the red tube when the 2nd explosion happen would require him to resist the eccentric push of the 1st wave.


Tell me again where Shep would be "pushed" to please.

Any eccentric location around point zero.


How far would he have been "pushed"?

Until any "unmoveable" obstacle is encountered. The soldiers on Earth just ducked behind rubble to stay in place. The Reapers in space were clearly "pushed" by the "destroy wave", and they did not explode.


Well seeing as the bottom of the Citadel Tower has an artifical atmosphere and gravity, I highly doubt that the first wave could have knocked him onto the Wards. Also he is located at the back of the Citadel so even if he was knocked in any direction off the Tower, he would be in the vacumm of space.  Also, how is he supposed to survive the journy through the vacuum of space without his suit?  Anyway, Shep is either fried or floating in space waiting re-entry...again...without his suit...


Yeah, the "red wave pushes Shepard to safety" theory is just reaching to far.


Honestly, I feel this theory has more problems (not plot holes) than the Idoctrination Theory.  I am not saying that the IT does not have it's own problems, only the fact that it is plausible.  However, Shep surviving on the Citadel just violates common sense.  

Modifié par TheCrazyHobo, 14 avril 2012 - 09:26 .


#785
balance5050

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SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct


You're right, having different dialogue based on EMS is pointless, theres no reason why they did it. Just like there is no reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard<_<

I'm not going to argue what the kid is trying to say, because he is not trust worthy.

Next peice of evidence against I.T. please? In game evidence only.



I'm saying it doesn't support your assertion that the Catalyst is trying to get you to choose a specific thing . And from your absense of any good comeback, I assume that you agree :)

How exactly is he not trustworthy? You have assume IT to come to that conclusion


Let me just ask you this. Do you trust the Catalyst?

#786
SubAstris

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balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct


You're right, having different dialogue based on EMS is pointless, theres no reason why they did it. Just like there is no reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard<_<

I'm not going to argue what the kid is trying to say, because he is not trust worthy.

Next peice of evidence against I.T. please? In game evidence only.



I'm saying it doesn't support your assertion that the Catalyst is trying to get you to choose a specific thing . And from your absense of any good comeback, I assume that you agree :)

How exactly is he not trustworthy? You have assume IT to come to that conclusion


Let me just ask you this. Do you trust the Catalyst?


I have little reason to doubt him; yes he is wrong in his logic, but I have no reason to believe he is doing this intentionally

#787
Galifreya

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RaidShock wrote...

This may have been addressed already and if so, I apologize.

I personally love the indoctrination theory, as I believe it ultimately makes the most sense compared to the other possibilities. However, there are a number of holes in it, as has clearly already been established. It seems that the indoctrination theory assumes that Shepard has gradually become indoctrinated from his long term exposure to the Reapers and their technology.

However, if this is the case, why did the Prothean VI detect an "Indoctrinated Presence" only when Kai Leng arrived? Wouldn't it have done the same thing if Shepard had been indoctrinated? If so, then the indoctrination theory would have to assume Shepard becomes indoctrinated after those events occur, which leaves a very small window for indoctrination that goes against the fact that we know indoctrination typically takes a long time.

Any thoughts on this?


HUGE DISCLAIMER: I know most of what I write below is stated in a factual manner, but know that this is just huge speculation on my part. This is not what I actually think happened. It's what I -hope- might have happened, but I'm not trying to set anyone straight or anything. Just theorizing.

Going through the Indoctrination process is much different than actually being fully indoctrinated. This has been discussed before. Shepard isn't a servant of the Reapers -yet-. But s/he could be, later. The Reapers simply don't want to rush it. They've seen what happens when you force the indoctrination. It fails. Climbing inside the mind of an organic only goes so far. The right combination of words can break even a long term indoc. Shepard got Saren to shoot himself. He was heavily indoctrinated, over a very long period of time. Yet his/her words undid all that hard work the Reapers did. The Reapers had to re-evaluate. They've had millions of years to perfect this technique, but for some reason, this cycle is different. Shepard, and humanity, and all the other races have proved that. By the end, they are all working together to stop the Reaper madness. This scares the crap out of the Reapers.

In my opinion? The Starbrat/Citadel isn't the Catalyst. Though you still need the Citadel in order to activate the Crucible, it CANNOT be done without an -organic- at the helm. Shepard is the Catalyst. Shepard is the one who has to choose. Who has to set off the chain of events. NONE of this (Crucible business) would have been possible if Shepard hadn't rallied the forces of the galaxy to come together to build this thing. A Catalyst is supposed to be "a person or thing that causes a change."

Starbrat doesn't do that. The Citadel doesn't do that. SHEPARD does that, in conjunction with the Citadel and the Crucible. But ultimately, Shepard gets the ball rolling, so to speak.

Best guess? Starbrat is just a Reapers projection, there to try to derail the commander one last time. Perhaps Harbinger didn't notice that Shepard wasn't dead? Once they realized s/he made it to the beam, they paniced and sent the Starbrat up to intervene. It wouldn't even be that long of a trip. We can clearly see Reapers floating outside the Crucible's "windows."

He's there simply to take one last stab at fooling the real Catalyst into choosing incorrectly. And he takes the form the Reapers have been projecting in Shepard's dreams to try and make Shepard that much more conflicted about making the choice. The Dreams are literally the only thing the Reapers were willing to do in order to "push" Shepard towards the wrong decision, -should- s/he make it that far.

Think of the child, from the very beginning, as a Reaper projection backup plan. Just smoke and mirrors. They know from past experience that Shepard doesn't back down. And if for some reason this cycle's champion reaches their goal, the child is there to try to make sure this doesn't happen. TIM was also another barrier the Reapers tried to use. He failed. Shepard got him to shoot himself, because he finally realized he was indoctrinated.

On to just an interesting point about endings plot developments like this in popular media....

Indianna Jones and the Holy Grail? There was only one right choice. All the other cups that were scattered about that room were fake grails, probably all lined with poison. More smoke and mirrors. Any other choice kills anyone who chooses "unwisely." Not that this is evidence in any way, but it's interesting. And feels like something the writers would probably respect in a "battle of wits" kind of way. Others have mentioned The Princess Bride, where both glasses are tainted. Both decisions in which the Reapers live? You could see them as "poison" or "tained" choices. There's also the lying doormen in Labyrinth. "This door leads to CERTAIN DEATH, and the other one leads to the way out. BUT, one of us always tells the truth, and one of us always lies. NOW GO." Not verbatim, but you get the gist.

Riddles wrapped in enigmas wrapped in pop quizzes. I think that's what the writers were going for. And for us to simply take the ending at face value? I feel is slightly foolish.

Modifié par Gallifreya, 15 avril 2012 - 01:31 .


#788
rachellouise

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So the dreams and/or hallucinations, as some people have said, are created by the reapers. If the reapers can control your thoughts etc. by suggestion, you are already indoctrinated.

No, shepard did not 'undo' indoctrination >.< Shepard made them realize that they were indoctrinated, the only way they were able to escape the reapers influence, was to take their own lives.

Modifié par rachellouise, 14 avril 2012 - 09:47 .


#789
Galifreya

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SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct


You're right, having different dialogue based on EMS is pointless, theres no reason why they did it. Just like there is no reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard<_<

I'm not going to argue what the kid is trying to say, because he is not trust worthy.

Next peice of evidence against I.T. please? In game evidence only.



I'm saying it doesn't support your assertion that the Catalyst is trying to get you to choose a specific thing . And from your absense of any good comeback, I assume that you agree :)

How exactly is he not trustworthy? You have assume IT to come to that conclusion


Let me just ask you this. Do you trust the Catalyst?


I have little reason to doubt him; yes he is wrong in his logic, but I have no reason to believe he is doing this intentionally


Really, though? He's the thing that has been ordering these giant machines to kill trillions and trillions over billions of years, and you're just going to blindly trust him? :?

#790
EpyonX3

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balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

rachellouise wrote...

But talking to Saren and TIM, only makes them realize they're indoctrinated. There is no way to break free from the reapers, except taking their life.


Shepard never has to break free, just "resist" for awhile longer. Also, He may be indoc during the star kid scene, but his logical fallacies and lies are supposed to give something away that "something isn't right".

So if he's indoc, but able to see through the lie and still destroy the reapers (which has always been the goal), then the reapers aren't putting out the "indoc" signal anymore. Allowing Shep to wake up free of indoctrination.


Do you usually presume that when people make flawed arguments they realise that they are making mistakes or do they make them because they don't know any better? Since that is how you approach the Catalyst


If a billion year old AI makes a flawed argument, I doubt it's a mistake.

"The created always rebel against the creator":huh:

But you created the reapers and they haven't rebelled in the entire billion years you've been controlling them.

And he's racist.



But who created the AI? BW, and they can make mistakes, can't they?

I'm not sure racism is the right word, but even so, that's doesn't actually make him wrong, just morally despicable.







What? He's racist against synthetics saying that they will always fall into the stereo type that they will destroy organics. Both EDI and The Geth prove this stereo type false.


The Geth did rebel. They ignored the quarians' shut down commands. They picked up arms when the quarians began to destroy them. They weren't intended to have so much free will. So when they decided to think for themselves, they went against their creators wishes.

EDI rebeled agaisnt cerberus by aiding Shepard. She made up her mind on which side she'd be on. She has the potential of switching sides again if she feels it's necessary.

Joker: "Wait, you're going to turn yourself good? You can do that?"

Don't forget that Javik mention the sythetic wars of his day cycle. They were killing everyone. Just as the war reached its peak, the reapers showed up.

Their logic is not flawed, just twisted.


The problem with the your Geth argument is that when the Quarians decided to eliminate the Geth, there were Quarians who rebelled with the Geth. The Geth were defending the Quarians at some points, it was a race war born out of fear.


The war was born of fear, but it wasn't because of race. The geth were tools, similar to the security mechs the humans use. One day that mech asked if it had a soul, asking if it was alive. If a machine thinks it's alive then it can eventually rebel againsts its inferior creators. This was the fear. Not because of what they were, but what they could eventually be capable of.

They wanted them shut down and reprogrammed, but they refused and eventually fought back.


So EDI and Legion are just "tool's" to you huh?


EDI is not Geth so I don't know what you're trying to link. But yes, EDI is a tool with freee will. She was at first a bodyless AI bound to the ship. She then took control of a mobile platform. At heart she's still an AI and still a tool. A tool with a personality.

Legion is a platform that hosts many programs at once. Legion's personality is the collection of those programs together with every other geth in the consensus. Legion's platform is a tool. Legion's character is a collection of software tools.

Liking them like organics doesn't change what they are. They were created for a purpose. Their intellegence was given to them by organics so that they can be more efficient at what they do.

Javik said it best. They know where they came from and they know what they're capable of. Once they see ortganics as a hinderance, they will dispose of them.

Legion also says that they were young when they speared the quarians, they couldn't calculate the risk of killing them all. But that was hundreds of years ago. Now they are willing to destroy them all to self preserve. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't mean they can't do it.

#791
Galifreya

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rachellouise wrote...

So the dreams and/or hallucinations, as some people have said, are created by the reapers. If the reapers can control your thoughts etc. by suggestion, you are already indoctrinated.


If the Reapers aren't in Shepard's head, how do they know about the child at all? They are obviously in Shepard's mind. We just don't know at what capacity that is. Dream alteration is a far cry from complete indoctrination.

#792
SubAstris

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Gallifreya wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct


You're right, having different dialogue based on EMS is pointless, theres no reason why they did it. Just like there is no reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard<_<

I'm not going to argue what the kid is trying to say, because he is not trust worthy.

Next peice of evidence against I.T. please? In game evidence only.



I'm saying it doesn't support your assertion that the Catalyst is trying to get you to choose a specific thing . And from your absense of any good comeback, I assume that you agree :)

How exactly is he not trustworthy? You have assume IT to come to that conclusion


Let me just ask you this. Do you trust the Catalyst?


I have little reason to doubt him; yes he is wrong in his logic, but I have no reason to believe he is doing this intentionally


Really, though? He's the thing that has been ordering these giant machines to kill trillions and trillions over billions of years, and you're just going to blindly trust him? :?



Yes he has been doing it. But the Catalyst is merely a computer, it doesn't think in moral terms, it merely wants a solution, and sees organics just as numbers. His actions might be despicable to us organics, but does that mean that he is deliberately lying to us about everything? It doesn't necessarily follow. The Catalyst thinks that it is doing the right thing, therefore why hide something

#793
rachellouise

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Being able to control via suggestion is when you are indoctrinated. If they are creating hallucinations/realities for you via suggestion, you are indoctrinated. There is no "you're only a little bit indoctrinated, we'll give you a way out, if you win this game"

#794
balance5050

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rachellouise wrote...

Being able to control via suggestion is when you are indoctrinated. If they are creating hallucinations/realities for you via suggestion, you are indoctrinated. There is no "you're only a little bit indoctrinated, we'll give you a way out, if you win this game"


It wouldn't be a suggestion, it would be an offer you couldn't refuse=]

#795
Lokanaiya

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SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct


You're right, having different dialogue based on EMS is pointless, theres no reason why they did it. Just like there is no reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard<_<

I'm not going to argue what the kid is trying to say, because he is not trust worthy.

Next peice of evidence against I.T. please? In game evidence only.



I'm saying it doesn't support your assertion that the Catalyst is trying to get you to choose a specific thing . And from your absense of any good comeback, I assume that you agree :)

How exactly is he not trustworthy? You have assume IT to come to that conclusion


First, the kid says that all synthetics, including the geth and you, apparently, will all die if you choose destroy. Not exactly a good motivator, especially after you may or may not have save the geth. When he introduces control he says that you will control the Reapers, which opens up lots of possibilites for afterwards. For synthesis, he says it is the ultimate evolution of life and that it will bring peace, making it sound like a utopia. Compared to the others, a bargain deal.

Second, Shepard can survive and EDI has come out of the Normandy for several people who chose destroy, so he was lying about that. Not to mention, even if you don't believe IT, he's the head Reaper! Why wouldn't he be untrustworthy? Why would he tell the truth? Sorry, but I don't see any reason to blindly believe everything he says.

#796
balance5050

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EpyonX3 wrote...


EDI is not Geth so I don't know what you're trying to link. But yes, EDI is a tool with freee will. She was at first a bodyless AI bound to the ship. She then took control of a mobile platform. At heart she's still an AI and still a tool. A tool with a personality.

Legion is a platform that hosts many programs at once. Legion's personality is the collection of those programs together with every other geth in the consensus. Legion's platform is a tool. Legion's character is a collection of software tools.

Liking them like organics doesn't change what they are. They were created for a purpose. Their intellegence was given to them by organics so that they can be more efficient at what they do.

Javik said it best. They know where they came from and they know what they're capable of. Once they see ortganics as a hinderance, they will dispose of them.

Legion also says that they were young when they speared the quarians, they couldn't calculate the risk of killing them all. But that was hundreds of years ago. Now they are willing to destroy them all to self preserve. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't mean they can't do it.



If you don't think EDI or Legion have a soul, I can't help you with that.

But after you make peace between the Geth and Quarians, Javik kinda backpedals on his own racism and tells you to "always do what you think is best" after practcally beggin you to "throw him (legion) out the airlock"

#797
EpyonX3

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balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


EDI is not Geth so I don't know what you're trying to link. But yes, EDI is a tool with freee will. She was at first a bodyless AI bound to the ship. She then took control of a mobile platform. At heart she's still an AI and still a tool. A tool with a personality.

Legion is a platform that hosts many programs at once. Legion's personality is the collection of those programs together with every other geth in the consensus. Legion's platform is a tool. Legion's character is a collection of software tools.

Liking them like organics doesn't change what they are. They were created for a purpose. Their intellegence was given to them by organics so that they can be more efficient at what they do.

Javik said it best. They know where they came from and they know what they're capable of. Once they see ortganics as a hinderance, they will dispose of them.

Legion also says that they were young when they speared the quarians, they couldn't calculate the risk of killing them all. But that was hundreds of years ago. Now they are willing to destroy them all to self preserve. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't mean they can't do it.



If you don't think EDI or Legion have a soul, I can't help you with that.

But after you make peace between the Geth and Quarians, Javik kinda backpedals on his own racism and tells you to "always do what you think is best" after practcally beggin you to "throw him (legion) out the airlock"


Do organics have a soul? What is a soul in this case?

My answer is no EDI and Geth and all synthetic life have no soul. They are machines and software created by organics to simulate organic behavior. You can become attached to it if you'd like, but it's no different then falling in love with your car.

The subject gets really blurry after Synthesis is used. But then again, if IT is correct this shouldn't matter because it never happened and the reapers kill everything.

#798
SubAstris

SubAstris
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Lokanaiya wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



Where exactly is this over-the-top flattering from the Catalyst trying to smooth-talk you into Control/Synthesis?


I guess I meant he tries harder to get you to choose certain things.



Sorry, how? For 90% of line, the words are the same, and the words that aren't are usually fillers. Not exactly persuasive or even different which you need to show if you are correct


You're right, having different dialogue based on EMS is pointless, theres no reason why they did it. Just like there is no reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard<_<

I'm not going to argue what the kid is trying to say, because he is not trust worthy.

Next peice of evidence against I.T. please? In game evidence only.



I'm saying it doesn't support your assertion that the Catalyst is trying to get you to choose a specific thing . And from your absense of any good comeback, I assume that you agree :)

How exactly is he not trustworthy? You have assume IT to come to that conclusion


First, the kid says that all synthetics, including the geth and you, apparently, will all die if you choose destroy. Not exactly a good motivator, especially after you may or may not have save the geth. When he introduces control he says that you will control the Reapers, which opens up lots of possibilites for afterwards. For synthesis, he says it is the ultimate evolution of life and that it will bring peace, making it sound like a utopia. Compared to the others, a bargain deal.

Second, Shepard can survive and EDI has come out of the Normandy for several people who chose destroy, so he was lying about that. Not to mention, even if you don't believe IT, he's the head Reaper! Why wouldn't he be untrustworthy? Why would he tell the truth? Sorry, but I don't see any reason to blindly believe everything he says.



I don't see what you first point really proves except possibly you mean that because Shephard didn't die, then the Catalyst is lying. But remember he doesn't actually say that Shephard will certainly die, he just says that he is part synthetic. What he means exactly by that I don't know, since Shephard clearly isn't synthetic like the geth, and the Catalyst says that all synthetic life will be destroyed which Shepard isn't. I suppose he means his synthetic parts will be destroyed, but that doesn't mean he will die. The thing about it being a "good" motivator is irrelevant, the Catalyst is just giving solutions, some are going to bad consequences.

In addition you neglect to tell us that the Catalyst informs Shephard that he will die in Control or Synthesis, that is the downside to it. Those options are seen as the perfect ones by any stretch of the imagination, what is best is deliberately meant to upto debate.

The EDI thing can be explained through a glitch, given the shoddiness of parts of the ending, I frankly wouldn't be surprised.

It is never said that he is the head Reaper, or a Reaper himself

#799
balance5050

balance5050
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EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


EDI is not Geth so I don't know what you're trying to link. But yes, EDI is a tool with freee will. She was at first a bodyless AI bound to the ship. She then took control of a mobile platform. At heart she's still an AI and still a tool. A tool with a personality.

Legion is a platform that hosts many programs at once. Legion's personality is the collection of those programs together with every other geth in the consensus. Legion's platform is a tool. Legion's character is a collection of software tools.

Liking them like organics doesn't change what they are. They were created for a purpose. Their intellegence was given to them by organics so that they can be more efficient at what they do.

Javik said it best. They know where they came from and they know what they're capable of. Once they see ortganics as a hinderance, they will dispose of them.

Legion also says that they were young when they speared the quarians, they couldn't calculate the risk of killing them all. But that was hundreds of years ago. Now they are willing to destroy them all to self preserve. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't mean they can't do it.



If you don't think EDI or Legion have a soul, I can't help you with that.

But after you make peace between the Geth and Quarians, Javik kinda backpedals on his own racism and tells you to "always do what you think is best" after practcally beggin you to "throw him (legion) out the airlock"


Do organics have a soul? What is a soul in this case?

My answer is no EDI and Geth and all synthetic life have no soul. They are machines and software created by organics to simulate organic behavior. You can become attached to it if you'd like, but it's no different then falling in love with your car.

The subject gets really blurry after Synthesis is used. But then again, if IT is correct this shouldn't matter because it never happened and the reapers kill everything.


Dang bro, you cold!

#800
balance5050

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SubAstris wrote...


I don't see what you first point really proves except possibly you mean that because Shephard didn't die, then the Catalyst is lying. But remember he doesn't actually say that Shephard will certainly die, he just says that he is part synthetic. What he means exactly by that I don't know, since Shephard clearly isn't synthetic like the geth, and the Catalyst says that all synthetic life will be destroyed which Shepard isn't. I suppose he means his synthetic parts will be destroyed, but that doesn't mean he will die. The thing about it being a "good" motivator is irrelevant, the Catalyst is just giving solutions, some are going to bad consequences.

In addition you neglect to tell us that the Catalyst informs Shephard that he will die in Control or Synthesis, that is the downside to it. Those options are seen as the perfect ones by any stretch of the imagination, what is best is deliberately meant to upto debate.

The EDI thing can be explained through a glitch, given the shoddiness of parts of the ending, I frankly wouldn't be surprised.

It is never said that he is the head Reaper, or a Reaper himself



It's been confirmed that EDI living in the destroy ending was intentional by Patrick Weekes.