Hawk227 wrote...
EthanDirtch wrote...
Again, bolded for emphasis. My post earlier discusses the fundamental question regarding the Indoctrination Theory: why? I
reiterate fully: Why bother (to continue, supposing it had already
begun) Indoctrinating Shepard, orchestrating this huge setup of events
involving a battle of wills (Anderson/TIM), meeting 'The Catalyst',
being given three choices to end the war, only for the war to not really
end anyway since it was all in Shepard's head? What do the Reapers gain
in doing this? Everything the Reapers have done in the series was for a
purpose. People they've indoctrinated always served a specifc role.
Even those who took years to indoctrinate played their parts.
We
go back to two characters who--as we understand it--have been under
'long term' Reaper Indoctrination. Most people can agree to these two
being Saren and The Illusive Man.
Unlike Shepard, neither of
these men ever even considered that FIGHTING the Reapers was the right
thing, that destroying them was even possible. Both tried to either ally
with the Reapers, or believed in the false hope of somehow controlling
them (a false hope shared by Protheans in the previous cycle, as
explained by Vendetta). Neither ever considered fighting them, brushing
that option off as foolhardy, impossible, or wasteful of potential.
Shepard--had he been under Reaper indoctrination--would have been
steered away from fighting the Reapers. It would have been subtle; at
first Shep would want revenge, his resolve strong and his motivation
pure, then he would perhaps start to think the fight was impossible and
seek out other ways of winning, namely ways that did not involve
destroying Reapers, eventually leading him to actively sabotaging other
parties from accomplishing what he set out to do: beat the Reapers. Of
course the argument is that his will is strong, but as strong as it is,
he's still mortal, still just a man (or a woman). IT supposes he's been
under steady Reaper indoctrination since at the very least Arrival, if
not earlier. That's, what? More than 2 years in terms of story?
And,
going back to my question of 'why', to reiterate from my earlier post:
Why bother 'toying' with Shepard's psyche when they've already won the
fight, conventionally or otherwise?
The crux of my argument
obviously comes from the Acavyos Indoctrination Theory video that
supposes Shepard was already in his 'indoctrination-induced' state
before he enters the Conduit, with everything happening afterwards not
real. There are other theories, but this is the one I watched and thus
is the one I am using unless someone else wants to insert a different
take on the theory.
First of all, Arrival was only about 6 months before ME3. This is established repeatedly in the in the opening act of the game.
Second
off (And I've said this like 3 times already) Shepard wasn't
indoctrinated yet. Arrival opened a window into his mind. The dreams are
doubt creeping in (A lot of indoctrination is simply breaking resolve).
When he talks to the Prothean VI, he is not indoctrinated. When he gets
hit by Harbinger's beam, Shepard has reached the final fork in the
road. Will he succumb or prevail?
Strategically, the Reapers have
not won. The notion that they can't be defeated conventionally isn't
really true. They've sustained heavy losses (for them) so far. The
Turians/Krogans took out a bunch, Shepard took out 4. More were lost in
other battles. Now shepard has united the galaxy, something they've
never faced before, a strong united defense. Regardless, Shepard has the
(Crucible). Shepard is the savior of the galaxy, if they turn him now,
they undermine everything he built. They probably dissolve that
alliance, and throw the opposition into chaos.
The star child's dialog in Low EMS vs. High EMS endings hints at this.
www.youtube.com/watch Low EMS (13:30 for star child)
www.youtube.com/watch Hight EMS (13:30 for star child)
At
low EMS, the star child is annoyed with you. I talks to you like you're
an annoyance, then he gives you one choice and you see london burn.
This is because in this scenario, you didn't unite the galaxy. You
really aren't a threat, so the reapers have no use for you.
From a
storytelling perspective, indoctrination is the last weapon you haven't
faced. But it's a big deal, Saren and Tim were indoctrinated. Shepard
was knocked out for 2 days by Object Rho. It's kind of a copout if
shepard never has to confront it. But to indoctrinate shepard you have
to indoctrinate the player. Indoctrination is underhanded persuasion.
Saren and Tim thought they were doing the right thing. The end game is
trying to convince you that Control(TIM) or Synthesis(Saren) are the
right thing. To adopt the reaper worldview. If you wanna have a meta
gaming experience like this, you have to do certain things to prevent
ruining the experience. That includes not having shepard snap out of it
after picking destroy and going straight into a boss fight. That would
be on youtube within 48hrs and the experience (and speculation) would be
killed
You have to let the players figure out on their own what happened. That means going on BSN and arguing about it.
First, to your own first point, I apologize for the mistake in the timeline. You are correct, 'Arrival' only occured six months prior to the start of Mass Effect 3. Thank you for catching me on that!
Now, moving on to the rest of your argument, as it has been posted in your reply to my own reply:
You state that 'Arrival' merely opened the door--so to speak--into Shepard's mind by his close proximity to the Reaper artifact for roughly 2 days, correct? But isn't the very fact that this hypothetical door has been opened that the Indoctrination process has already begun, even at its most subtle level? Sure, the results won't bear fruit for weeks, or months, or years for certain individuals allowing said individual to retain a certain level of normalcy and consistency with their personality. But even with characters whose indoctrination was carefully orchestrated over a long period of time, such as Saren, it was obvious that Saren was not willing to fight the Reapers, but ally with them. The Illusive Man, whose own Indoctrination went unsuspected for awhile (as an aside, we are assuming his Indoctrination started after recovering the human proto-reaper?) became convinced fighting the Reapers would be a waste of potential. What I'm getting at is that anyone whose Indoctrination has begun even at the smallest, quietest of whispers, quickly become convinced fighting the Reapers is pointless, whether it's because war against them is futile, or that they are an asset that cannot be passed up.
"Arrival opened a window into his mind. The dreams are
doubt creeping in (A lot of
indoctrination is simply breaking resolve)." -Hawk227
But, again, supposing you are correct that in spite of all that, Shepard is in fact not yet Indoctrinated, that the Prothean VI accurately diagnosed that only Kai Leng--among those present in the area--is under Reaper thrall. Or, we can also speculate--key word--that the VI's indoctrination detection is flawed. Regardless, at this point, it's not revealed Shepard is indoctrinated.
So, let's fast forward a bit where it becomes muddied when the Indoctrination-induced hallucination begins.
In my previous posts I used Acavyos' video as the framework of my argument, that Shepard's fighting in his mind after having been hit by Harbinger's beam. The crux of my point was that there really was no necessity in furthering Shepard's Indoctrination by the time of this event. I reiterate that--and have to take on face value given what has been said by Hackett--even with the full might of the galaxy, they would not win conventionally and that all their hopes were pinned on the Crucible doing 'whatever' (as no one at this point--player or in-game characters--what 'whatever' exactly is). Even the Reapers believed this to be true, hence why they moved the Citadel, closed its arms, and brought a sizable force (I won't say the entirety as I'm personally unsure if they did in fact rally all remaining Reapers to Sol) to protect it. So, again, if Shepard and what ground forces were near were prevented from ever entering the Conduit to reach the Citadel, open its arms, and allow the Crucible--the only viable threat to the Reapers--to dock and thus be used, then what was the point in furthering Shepard's indoctrination? What was the gain? If he was hit by the beam, even if it was not a direct hit, why not hit him again?
And, going back to the Reapers beating the galaxy, the bulk of the galactic forces were now in Sol, and whatever else left out there were token forces. At best, Hackett could realize the Citadel arms were not going to open and he would retreat, with the Crucible if possible but with the Crucible nearby the Reapers--in all likelihood--would destroy it as they likely have done once every 50,000 years whenever a galactic community or civilization was close to completing it. The only argument here is that 'in the off chance' that Hackett had enough foresight to retreat, manage to spirit away the Crucible, make yet another play for Earth and the Citadel, and somehow find someone to succeed where Shepard could not. In the grand scheme of things, not impossible (given the fact that they almost made it with Shepard), and then use Shepard to somehow subvert their efforts. But, unlikely, again, because the chances of moving a slow and cumbersome object like the Crucible out of Reaper tentacles would be slim to none.
The only plausible way Indoctrination Theory could work in my mind would be after the confrontation with the Illusive Man. It's plausible at that point that the Illusive Man's new 'power of persuasion' (so to speak) had an effect on Shepard that allows him/her to believe Hackett is calling for help to activate the Crucible, and then onwards to meet 'The Catalyst', at which point the Catalyst attempts to sway Shepard one way or another. But this would supposes a few things: first, Shepard's in the Citadel already and either a) has defeated the Illusive Man, the Catalyst AI is real, or
the Illusive Man is alive and is still controlling Shepard, and the Catalyst AI is false. Option B is ideal because it means the Illusive Man is stalling and keeping Shepard from completing his/her task. Option A would be baffling because why bring Shepard up to the "choices room" at all and allow Shepard the opportunity to break Indoctrination with 'Destroy'? Why not let Shepard bleed out, since the Crucible is not activated, the Reapers are winning the war conventionally, and no one else has entered the Citadel?
But, again, as has been said before by others, in this thread and elsewhere...this all presupposes that BioWare intentionally created a game with a false ending, and then allowing this kind of backlash to ferment for months before stating whether or not the ending was real, what really happened, why it happened, etc. So, in terms of the creative process, business process, media, and what not, it seems...unlikely. Even if they were not expecting the kind of reaction they have received. But I digress since this isn't an argument against in-game gameplay, cinematics, or in-game/in-story motivations.
In short: why persist with the indoctrination after hitting Shepard with the beam? Can his mind have been opened to Reaper indoctrination in Arrival and still be indoctrination free at least until immediately after meeting Vendetta? Against precedent, how can Shepard maintain unity of motivation and action with leaders such as Hackett and Anderson when others who have been under Reaper influence have shown to be directly opposed to fighting the Reapers? And, as others stated, how can Shepard's mind and personality remain intact if he wasn't "truly" indoctrinated until after the mission in Thessia?
Retour en haut
