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[tractrpl]

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

TIM represents human ambition, not indoctrination. He only 'represented' indoctrination in the last movie, and those eyes had nothing to do with his process of indoctrination, it's his obsession over the remains of the collector base that finally did him in.

Wut. Reaper tech indoctrinates and TIM got those eyes from reaper tech/artifact. The Thessia VI states "There was a splinter group who sought to use the crucible to "control the reaper" this splinter group was later found to be indoctrinated" Sound familiar? TIM is indoctrinated at the end of the game, he represents how the desire to "control" will lead you to indoctrination.

Again, if he was indoctrinated before he would never have helped you defeat the collectors, yet he did help you defeat the collectors, and yet he still had those eyes. Therefore, those eyes have nothing whatsoever to do with his indoctrination. They do indicate an unhealthy obsession with reaper tech, but nothing more.

[tractrpl]

Also, I need to mention the fact that not all Reaper tech indoctrinates. If it did, then every single person that ever visited the citadel would be indoctrinated. There's no evidence whatsoever that merely visiting the citadel indoctrinated anybody.

[Lyria]

tractrpl wrote...

Also, I need to mention the fact that not all Reaper tech indoctrinates. If it did, then every single person that ever visited the citadel would be indoctrinated. There's no evidence whatsoever that merely visiting the citadel indoctrinated anybody.

Wouldn't it be the most amusing thing if everyone was slightly indoctrinated.  
There is no evidence of mass amounts of people being effected...but the idea just amuses me.

But the Opperation Rho device did at least blast Shepard and keep him/her out for two days.  That's enough time for Harbinger to plant something in Shep's head.  

That's one of the things I don't understand.  If the artifact indoctrinated the project's crew, then why couldn't it at least plant the seed of indoctrination into Shepard.  I'm not saying its a reality in-game but just a possiblity that could, key word could, lead to some interesting story in the Extened Cut if Bioware wanted to go that route.

At least it would be better than 

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

TIM represents human ambition, not indoctrination. He only 'represented' indoctrination in the last movie, and those eyes had nothing to do with his process of indoctrination, it's his obsession over the remains of the collector base that finally did him in.

Wut. Reaper tech indoctrinates and TIM got those eyes from reaper tech/artifact. The Thessia VI states "There was a splinter group who sought to use the crucible to "control the reaper" this splinter group was later found to be indoctrinated" Sound familiar? TIM is indoctrinated at the end of the game, he represents how the desire to "control" will lead you to indoctrination.

Again, if he was indoctrinated before he would never have helped you defeat the collectors, yet he did help you defeat the collectors, and yet he still had those eyes. Therefore, those eyes have nothing whatsoever to do with his indoctrination. They do indicate an unhealthy obsession with reaper tech, but nothing more.

The more useful the thrall, the more they let them keep their free will, otherwise they would just become husks. TIM was studying indoctrination, he originally got his eyes from reapers tech. It writes itself bro.

Modifié par balance5050, 16 avril 2012 - 07:32 .

[Hawk227]

tractrpl wrote...

He was only marginally indoctrinated. Not anything near the point of, say, Saren. He's a character with a long history. To say he 'represents' indoctrination invalidates his established character before that point. Again, I mention he had those eyes BEFORE indoctrination. Those eyes represent his ambition, his "vision", forgive the pun, not his indoctrination.

Less indoctrinated than saren? Really? I understand you point about the eyes and before ME3. But we're talking about symbolism (You brought this up, btw). Within the Narrative of ME3 he represented indoctrination. Before that he represented human ambition. But not anymore.

If they put the eyes in as a nod to TIM, it was a nod to indoctrination.

[tractrpl]

There's also the fact that they had him on that table for God knows how long. Listen, I'm not saying IT isn't true, I'm just not holding out hope for it. Besides, you guys asked for holes in the theory, so I'm giving them to you. There's lots of holes in even established canon.

[Hawk227]

tractrpl wrote...

Also, I need to mention the fact that not all Reaper tech indoctrinates. If it did, then every single person that ever visited the citadel would be indoctrinated. There's no evidence whatsoever that merely visiting the citadel indoctrinated anybody.

I would disagree. Some weird stuff happens on the citadel. Everyone ignores a reaper invasion, the Council forgets what it knew about Sovereign. Noone seems to curious about the keepers. Maybe everyone is a little indoctrinated...

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

There's also the fact that they had him on that table for God knows how long. Listen, I'm not saying IT isn't true, I'm just not holding out hope for it. Besides, you guys asked for holes in the theory, so I'm giving them to you. There's lots of holes in even established canon.

Yep, that's what the OP says, you bring up the holes and we address them 

[tractrpl]

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

He was only marginally indoctrinated. Not anything near the point of, say, Saren. He's a character with a long history. To say he 'represents' indoctrination invalidates his established character before that point. Again, I mention he had those eyes BEFORE indoctrination. Those eyes represent his ambition, his "vision", forgive the pun, not his indoctrination.

Less indoctrinated than saren? Really? I understand you point about the eyes and before ME3. But we're talking about symbolism (You brought this up, btw). Within the Narrative of ME3 he represented indoctrination. Before that he represented human ambition. But not anymore.

If they put the eyes in as a nod to TIM, it was a nod to indoctrination.

No, you HOPE it's a nod to indoctrination. If they release this DLC and it has no IT you'll be wanting to shoot yourself, bro.

Modifié par tractrpl, 16 avril 2012 - 07:36 .

[tractrpl]

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Also, I need to mention the fact that not all Reaper tech indoctrinates. If it did, then every single person that ever visited the citadel would be indoctrinated. There's no evidence whatsoever that merely visiting the citadel indoctrinated anybody.

I would disagree. Some weird stuff happens on the citadel. Everyone ignores a reaper invasion, the Council forgets what it knew about Sovereign. Noone seems to curious about the keepers. Maybe everyone is a little indoctrinated...

Accept for the fact that even people not on the citadel were doing the same thing.

[Hawk227]

tractrpl wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

He was only marginally indoctrinated. Not anything near the point of, say, Saren. He's a character with a long history. To say he 'represents' indoctrination invalidates his established character before that point. Again, I mention he had those eyes BEFORE indoctrination. Those eyes represent his ambition, his "vision", forgive the pun, not his indoctrination.

Less indoctrinated than saren? Really? I understand you point about the eyes and before ME3. But we're talking about symbolism (You brought this up, btw). Within the Narrative of ME3 he represented indoctrination. Before that he represented human ambition. But not anymore.

If they put the eyes in as a nod to TIM, it was a nod to indoctrination.

No, you HOPE it's a not to indoctrination. If they release this DLC and it has no IT you'll be wanting to shoot yourself, bro.

Chill out, I just turned your counterpoint against you. That's how debating works.

And I wouldn't assume too much about my attachment to this game or this theory. Worst case scenario, I don't buy anymore Bioware products.

[TheDonk95]

I just saw some videos about IT, and I gotta say that I hope that this is true, because it somehow makes more sense than if all that happened at the end was real and not just Shepard's mind. That is all.

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

He was only marginally indoctrinated. Not anything near the point of, say, Saren. He's a character with a long history. To say he 'represents' indoctrination invalidates his established character before that point. Again, I mention he had those eyes BEFORE indoctrination. Those eyes represent his ambition, his "vision", forgive the pun, not his indoctrination.

Less indoctrinated than saren? Really? I understand you point about the eyes and before ME3. But we're talking about symbolism (You brought this up, btw). Within the Narrative of ME3 he represented indoctrination. Before that he represented human ambition. But not anymore.

If they put the eyes in as a nod to TIM, it was a nod to indoctrination.

No, you HOPE it's a not to indoctrination. If they release this DLC and it has no IT you'll be wanting to shoot yourself, bro.

That's what Shepard is all about; HOPE. Asuras Wrath and Final Fantasy XIII are both doing the false ending thing, ME3 is just taking all the flack because they added a poorly executed"meta-gaming".element. (and it's popular.)

[tractrpl]

There are lots of holes in established canon that can only be glossed over. Like if the Geth merely wanted to defend themselves, why did the kill every man woman and child on Rannoch, even the ones that didn't fight them? Even in the Terminator movies, I doubt the human population fell to as low as 17 million. That means the Geth had to go block by block, house by house, cave by cave and deliberately hunt down any quarian they could find, and that's self defense? Please.

[Hawk227]

tractrpl wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Also, I need to mention the fact that not all Reaper tech indoctrinates. If it did, then every single person that ever visited the citadel would be indoctrinated. There's no evidence whatsoever that merely visiting the citadel indoctrinated anybody.

I would disagree. Some weird stuff happens on the citadel. Everyone ignores a reaper invasion, the Council forgets what it knew about Sovereign. Noone seems to curious about the keepers. Maybe everyone is a little indoctrinated...

Accept for the fact that even people not on the citadel were doing the same thing.

The council were in a small minority that knew the truth about sovereign. People outside the Citadel were fighting reapers on Palaven, Thessia, Earth, etc. and fleeing to refugee camps.

[tractrpl]

As a skeptic, it is my duty to put any theory through the ringer. My thoughts, there no reason to believe that the ending we're given isn't real canon, and there's nothing to believe that IT is what will end up being real canon. It could be, but it's far less than certain.

[tractrpl]

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Also, I need to mention the fact that not all Reaper tech indoctrinates. If it did, then every single person that ever visited the citadel would be indoctrinated. There's no evidence whatsoever that merely visiting the citadel indoctrinated anybody.

I would disagree. Some weird stuff happens on the citadel. Everyone ignores a reaper invasion, the Council forgets what it knew about Sovereign. Noone seems to curious about the keepers. Maybe everyone is a little indoctrinated...

Accept for the fact that even people not on the citadel were doing the same thing.

The council were in a small minority that knew the truth about sovereign. People outside the Citadel were fighting reapers on Palaven, Thessia, Earth, etc. and fleeing to refugee camps.

No, no, I'm talking about before the Reaper invasion. Most of the council races officially denied the existence of the Reapers from the Turians to the Humans. None were acting like the Reapers were real until it was too late.

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Also, I need to mention the fact that not all Reaper tech indoctrinates. If it did, then every single person that ever visited the citadel would be indoctrinated. There's no evidence whatsoever that merely visiting the citadel indoctrinated anybody.

I would disagree. Some weird stuff happens on the citadel. Everyone ignores a reaper invasion, the Council forgets what it knew about Sovereign. Noone seems to curious about the keepers. Maybe everyone is a little indoctrinated...

Accept for the fact that even people not on the citadel were doing the same thing.

The council were in a small minority that knew the truth about sovereign. People outside the Citadel were fighting reapers on Palaven, Thessia, Earth, etc. and fleeing to refugee camps.

No, no, I'm talking about before the Reaper invasion. Most of the council races officially denied the existence of the Reapers from the Turians to the Humans. None were acting like the Reapers were real until it was too late.

No, when Vega is on the Citadel he mentions how calm everyone is acting even though they know that reapers are already in the galaxy. This would be a low level mass indoctrination, the citadel is reaper tech and was always originally meant to be a trap anyway.

Vega is also the one who says "Do you hear that hum? Is it just me?". That statement has no meaning outside of indoctrination.

[tractrpl]

Yes, I caught that. However, there was one other place in the citadel where there's a hum not related to indoctrination, and that would be at the conduit, AKA the Relay 'monument', which was actually a working relay. It maid Kaiden's "teeth tingle". It's possible that's what he heard. Again, there's the possibility the IT is real, and I think you for bringing that up. I'm just not very hopeful for it's existence.

[tractrpl]

Also, I could point out that it could just be something they ment to add but didn't cause they ran out of time. Also, I believe it was on the Normandy where Vega heard a hum.

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

Yes, I caught that. However, there was one other place in the citadel where there's a hum not related to indoctrination, and that would be at the conduit, AKA the Relay 'monument', which was actually a working relay. It maid Kaiden's "teeth tingle". It's possible that's what he heard. Again, there's the possibility the IT is real, and I think you for bringing that up. I'm just not very hopeful for it's existence.

The relay monument may have been built by the Protheans, but it was based on reaper tech all the same.

[tractrpl]

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Yes, I caught that. However, there was one other place in the citadel where there's a hum not related to indoctrination, and that would be at the conduit, AKA the Relay 'monument', which was actually a working relay. It maid Kaiden's "teeth tingle". It's possible that's what he heard. Again, there's the possibility the IT is real, and I think you for bringing that up. I'm just not very hopeful for it's existence.

The relay monument may have been built by the Protheans, but it was based on reaper tech all the same.

So is every drive core on every ship in the entire galaxy. Hell, even biotic implants are based on Reaper tech at some point, yet this doesn't cause everyone to get indoctrinated.

[balance5050]

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Yes, I caught that. However, there was one other place in the citadel where there's a hum not related to indoctrination, and that would be at the conduit, AKA the Relay 'monument', which was actually a working relay. It maid Kaiden's "teeth tingle". It's possible that's what he heard. Again, there's the possibility the IT is real, and I think you for bringing that up. I'm just not very hopeful for it's existence.

The relay monument may have been built by the Protheans, but it was based on reaper tech all the same.

So is every drive core on every ship in the entire galaxy. Hell, even biotic implants are based on Reaper tech at some point, yet this doesn't cause everyone to get indoctrinated.

It's debatable that the Protheans were much more advanced in their cycle and there for was able to more closely assimilate genuine reaper tech, The current tech in ME3 is primitive, even according to the Prothean Javik. 

[ZajoE38]

IT is full of holes, but fans ignore them, because in dream they can justify anything It was more than obvious that IT will be rejected, because those holes were many and too serious. Funny is that these fans doesn't even know how exactly indoctrination work. IT ending would be good, but it's in conflict with all 3 ME games. I just wonder how can be IT fans so blind. Confidence born of ignorance.

[M. Hanky]

My biggest problem with IT:

The prothean VI says that you're not indoctrinated (or at least HEAVILY implies that you're not) and says that the Illusive man and Kai Leng are. It's really hard to convince me that the ending is Shepard fighting/being indoctrinated and has been being indoctrinated since ME1 when the Prothean VI, which seems to be able to tell the difference, says that Shepard isn't.

Second biggest problem:

Bioware may have dropped the ball on the ending, but if they were really trying to say that everything on the Citadel was some kind of internal battle and choosing the destroy ending is Shepard winning the battle in his mind so he can really kill the reapers now, there's no way they'd be stupid/cruel enough to leave it there.

Third biggest problem:

The poorly written/really wierd stuff after such as the Normandy crashing on some wierd planet and the guy with the kid would make no sense.